Sheep, Sheep Dogs, and Wolves

[DannyBear71]

This is a philosophy I recently heard from Nutnfancy on youtube. I believe fits very well with those who choose to assume the responsibility of Concealed Carry. Obviously, I believe he does a much better job of explaining it, but here I go.

Basically society is represented by three groups. The Sheep, the Sheep Dogs, and the Wolves.


The Sheep:

In a crisis these are the individuals who often stand by watching. For whatever reason they choose: not to intervene, don't become involved, don't believe they can make a difference, and so don't place themselves in the danger.


The Sheep Dogs:

These individuals aren't striking. They don't very often stand out from the other sheep around them, but when a crisis occurs something inside them can't stand idly by and do nothing. They are often Firemen, Police, or EMS, but not always. Sometimes they're just ordinary citizens who in a crisis leap to help another human being in danger often endangering themselves to save others. They're often called HERO after such events yet don't feel particularly heroic. They don't do it for fame or fortune, but rather because it needed to be done.


The Wolves:

These are societies worst nightmare. These individuals or groups choose to prey on others. Wherever they pass they seem to leave murder and mayhem in their wake. These are the mass murderer, the drug dealer, and the rapist. They feed on the suffering of others, and glory in the destruction their actions cause.


Essentially, the Sheep Dogs are societies protectors. They don't seek trouble, far from it. But when a crisis occurs they're prepared. Willing if necessary to place themselves in danger to save friends, family, and even complete strangers from the Wolves.


Tell me what you think?

 

[Treo]

Nutn fancy is full of crap

Grossman’s “Sheep, Sheepdogs and Wolves” was mainly directed at professional soldiers and police officers it was never intended to be a Raison d'être for concealed carry permit holders. It’s an analogy and like all analogies its flawed and you don’t have to take it too far to find the flaws.

Sheep are herd animals that are kept not out of the benevolent goodness of their owner’s heart but because they produce goods that benefit the owner and only the owner. Where do you think the term getting “fleeced” came from? Unproductive sheep are killed.

Sheepdogs are not part of the flock they are employed to impose the owner’s will on the sheep, by force if necessary. They guard the flock because it is of benefit to the owner and they have no qualms about herding the flock to a slaughterhouse if that is what the owner commands. Sheep dog is not an appellation I would care to have applied to me.

It has been my experience that those, in the permit holder community, who seek the title of sheepdog, tend to be authoritarians who use it as a means of self aggrandizement. They tend to derive their feelings of self worth from the position of quasi authority they assume their permit gives them. This is, of course, my opinion but I have also seen posters on gun boards state that our status as permit holders makes us defacto auxiliary police officers. As such I believe the sheepdog mythology is very, very dangerous to the gun owning community.

 

[S&WM&P40]

This is a philosophy I recently heard from Nutnfancy on youtube. I believe fits very well with those who choose to assume the responsibility of Concealed Carry. Obviously, I believe he does a much better job of explaining it, but here I go.

Basically society is represented by three groups. The Sheep, the Sheep Dogs, and the Wolves.


The Sheep:

In a crisis these are the individuals who often stand by watching. For whatever reason they choose: not to intervene, don't become involved, don't believe they can make a difference, and so don't place themselves in the danger.


The Sheep Dogs:

These individuals aren't striking. They don't very often stand out from the other sheep around them, but when a crisis occurs something inside them can't stand idly by and do nothing. They are often Firemen, Police, or EMS, but not always. Sometimes they're just ordinary citizens who in a crisis leap to help another human being in danger often endangering themselves to save others. They're often called HERO after such events yet don't feel particularly heroic. They don't do it for fame or fortune, but rather because it needed to be done.


The Wolves:

These are societies worst nightmare. These individuals or groups choose to prey on others. Wherever they pass they seem to leave murder and mayhem in their wake. These are the mass murderer, the drug dealer, and the rapist. They feed on the suffering of others, and glory in the destruction their actions cause.


Essentially, the Sheep Dogs are societies protectors. They don't seek trouble, far from it. But when a crisis occurs they're prepared. Willing if necessary to place themselves in danger to save friends, family, and even complete strangers from the Wolves.


Tell me what you think?

The guy is a full blown JOKE! He has made himself hated by millions. (Check out what Ar15.com thinks of this mall ninja) He makes a 30-50 min video on something that only needs 20mins at the most and repeats himself over and over. His over use of the word "Dude" makes me want to scream! He claims to be doing his videos for the "people" but yet the second someone calls him out on his BS they are banned. If someone asks something, that goes against the ideas he is peddling, they are harassed by his sister. When he first started he was a good guy with good videos, but as time went on he become more and more of an ass****! He is the school yard bully of youtube and uses his sister as his enforcer to make people conform to his way of thinking. While there are some that follow his spam a large portion of the gun community has been turned off by him. As can be seen while running a Google search on his youtube channel name (his real name and address came to light after his youtube account was hacked).

Nutnfancy vs SR9? - Ruger Forum
Link Removed
Shotgunworld.com • View topic - nutnfancy gun reviews on youtube

Just to name a few forums who cant stand him(the list is almost endless).

 

[S&WM&P40]

Grossman’s “Sheep, Sheepdogs and Wolves” was mainly directed at professional soldiers and police officers it was never intended to be a Raison d'être for concealed carry permit holders. It’s an analogy and like all analogies its flawed and you don’t have to take it too far to find the flaws.

Sheep are herd animals that are kept not out of the benevolent goodness of their owner’s heart but because they produce goods that benefit the owner and only the owner. Where do you think the term getting “fleeced” came from? Unproductive sheep are killed.

Sheepdogs are not part of the flock they are employed to impose the owner’s will on the sheep, by force if necessary. They guard the flock because it is of benefit to the owner and they have no qualms about herding the flock to a slaughterhouse if that is what the owner commands. Sheep dog is not an appellation I would care to have applied to me.

It has been my experience that those, in the permit holder community, who seek the title of sheepdog, tend to be authoritarians who use it as a means of self aggrandizement. They tend to derive their feelings of self worth from the position of quasi authority they assume their permit gives them. This is, of course, my opinion but I have also seen posters on gun boards state that our status as permit holders makes us defacto auxiliary police officers. As such I believe the sheepdog mythology is very, very dangerous to the gun owning community.

Outstanding post as usual +10. The only thing that sets us permit holders apart from other citizens, is we have decided to take our self preservation into our own hands. Instead of doing what society says we should do (dial 911 and and wait for them to ID our body). Don't get me started on the whole "needing a permit" to use a right given to all of us at birth by our founding fathers.

 

[Treo]

Don't get me started on the whole "needing a permit" to use a right given to all of us at birth by God.

Fixed it for you

 

[kelcarry]

Hey TREO:Could not agree more your Post #2. All you have to do is read thru dozens of replies on these forums and get scared out your mind. I do think (and hope), however, that many of these "sheepdog" comments come easily when you are sitting in your underwear at a computer.

 

[Treo]

Hey TREO:Could not agree more your Post #2. All you have to do is read thru dozens of replies on these forums and get scared out your mind. I do think (and hope), however, that many of these "sheepdog" comments come easily when you are sitting in your underwear at a computer.

They luuuuuv nutnfancy and the whole sheep dog trip over at Defensivecarry.com

 

[DannyBear71]

Well, that was certainly a spirited response. lol Thank you, Treo. Honest arguements are always welcome.

S&WM&P40, I don't know anything about any animosity between Nutnfancy and the CCW community. And personally I could care less.

My interest was to hear your personal opinions. And for that I thank you, but whether others agree with him or not is beside the point.

If you're going to argue his ideas on the merits... Cool, I'm all for that. But making accusations about what may or may not have occured elsewhere just undermines your arguement.

Character assassination is pathetic. If you want to discredit him attack his ideas... Not him.

That's my opinion.

 

[Treo]

Well, that was certainly a spirited response. lol Thank you, Treo. Honest arguements are always welcome.

S&WM&P40, I don't know anything about any animosity between Nutnfancy and the CCW community. And personally I could care less.

My interest was to hear your personal opinions. And for that I thank you, but whether others agree with him or not is beside the point.

If you're going to argue his ideas on the merits... Cool, I'm all for that. But making accusations about what may or may not have occured elsewhere just undermines your arguement.

Character assassination is pathetic. If you want to discredit him attack his ideas... Not him.

That's my opinion.

The idea your asking us to argue isn't nutnfancy's in the first place, it came from a guy named David Grossman a retired LTC who has also been mostly discredited in recent years because he tends to hyberpole.

 

[S&WM&P40]

They luuuuuv nutnfancy and the whole sheep dog trip over at Defensivecarry.com

LOL! Like I said, he does have his share of brain dead worshipers who would do anything for him. But as a whole most of the firearm community can't stand him (most forums/people I have talked to that is.) I do think that is, one main reason for some people who want/hold permits (the whole power trip.) All the threads on CCW badges points at that. Or the people who say if they had to draw their firearm they would also draw their permit and state "CCW holder" LMAO!

 

[Aresye]

While I certainly agree a few CCW holders, especially younger ones, tend to instill a sense of self-worth by feeling they have a power over others, I think it's unfair to lump a lot of people into that category because they firmly believe in the sheep and sheepdog philosophy.

I've actually met Dave Grossman 2 times, both when he was giving a seminar. He's a very intelligent man who does a lot of research into his theories, and the basis behind why some people thrive on adversity, and others are destroyed by it.

You can argue how the right to bear arms is a constitutional right in order to protect yourself, your family, or a tyrannical government, but when people ask questions about protecting others, most of you seem a little quick to hide behind the possibilities of legal fallout, or that their lives are not your responsibility. Nothing wrong with that viewpoint, but when you try to force it on those of us who care about our fellow man, regardless of who they are, or what the legal consequences could be, then there's a problem.

The fact is, society has shown in the past, and present (Egypt), that it can crumble in a day. Tomorrow you could find yourself in the beginnings of another civil war, or a foreign invasion. Are you prepared to protect yourself and your family? If so, good, but are you also going to abandon all the others because they didn't follow your philosophy on self-protection, and therefore SOL?

I find myself disgusted at both ends of the spectrum. I don't like seeing new CCW carriers with the mentality that they are above their peers because they carry, and I also don't like seeing a lot of members here flaming and berating those of us that choose to live with the sheepdog mentality. Knowing that we can protect our fellow man who may not be able to protect themself gives us our sense of self-worth, which is what all of us strive for in our lives, isn't it?

Nutnfancy is the reason I got into CCing, and yes, I do PERSONALLY believe that he's doing the gun community a lot of good as a whole, both for gear reviews, and philosophical viewpoints. How others CHOOSE to manipulate and distort what he says is on them, and them only. I don't recall any videos of Nutn promoting the idea of a CC badge. Instead I see a lot of videos talking about why military members should carry on base, and why the general population as a whole needs to be prepared for our own country's Egypt.

In conclusion, I would like to restate how CCing, and the sheepdog mentality sometimes do overlap, but they are two different worlds with different personalities from within. Armed or not, I will not hesitate to come to someone in need, whether that's the 8 Iranian Muslims I rescued, or the $1600 I sent to keep my sister in school, because my parents are nearly bankrupt from a backfired business. I'd rather risk getting thrown behind bars to save an innocent life, than stand there and watch, not wanting to get involved for that reason, and if you can simply watch something as horrific as that go down, and still sleep soundly thinking, "Well, they chose not to be armed, so that's on them," then I personally find that sick.

 

[oldbanjo]

Very good Aresye.

 

[Aresye]

Thanks Banjo. Your comment will undoubtedly help ease the painful flaming I am about to endure.

I do want to mention something else, as seen over the year I've been on this board.

While a lot of members do put out good information, and well thought out posts, it's a rarity compared to the people who seem to be watching these forums every day. I listen, or read (to be more correct), and the only times I care to add my 2c, are times like these, when these same frequent posters take someone's personal philosophy and mindset, berate them for it, and then go on to bash that person's role-model who helped inspire them to CC in the first place. We're all on the same team. Don't fight your team members. I've learned a lot in the military, and I've come to blows with some of the guys in my shop, because they have a complete 180 philosophy on our job, and life as a whole. We're also a part of a crew when we do missions together, and what does all the bickering and fighting accomplish? Absolutely nothing. In fact, it puts us at greater risk because our mind has to be on the mission, and not dwelling over the nasty fight we had the day before. If we want to fight and oppose the large number of gun control supporters, we need to fight them, their legislation, and not ourselves. Splitting up our community and alienating people based off their philosophy is only going to make us weaker down the road.

So in addition to threads like these, what else do I see? Gun nuts, and yes I mean that in an insulting manner. I see a lot of these stereotypical gun nuts that post nothing but conspiracy theories, deep religious meanings behind self-defense, and of course the whole, "I need to carry to biggest bullet possible, because it will 'knock down' my aggressor." I think these types of people are way more dangerous than people like Nutnfancy, because they continue to spout their lack of fact based opinions on these boards, and when people come here looking for advice, or a, "in the middle about gun control," person comes here, all they see are threads like the above, and decide that we're all a bunch of gun nuts. Congrats, we're really winning the battle in those situations.

Now, I have been properly schooled in the past, and I could see the flaws in my logic, and why BEFORE, how I was a bit over-eager to prove myself, and why that was dangerous thinking. That was me twisting the meaning behind Grossman's philosophy, and with the help of some of these people here, I was able to truly understand it. That doesn't mean I threw out my own sense of self-worth by protecting others, only that I will be more methodical in my thinking if the time comes, to truly decide whether or not a real threat is present.

I've often thought about leaving this board. I may still do, depending on some of the newer responses this thread may get, and how they word it.

Oh, and since you've labeled me as a troll in the past, perhaps I'll add some kerosene to the fire. Did you know I voted for Obama? I'll officially apologize to you all, in my own thread, if he ever SERIOUSLY considers gun control. Until then, perhaps lay off the conspiracy theories. After all, I'm still waiting for the UN to invade as well.

I'm also Catholic, but putting a deep religious meaning behind your right to carry, or a reason to fight Muslims, is putting you right into the same group of religious extremists in my book. Yes, spirituality is a very important part of the warrior mindset, but when you assume and pretend to know what God wants, or what his views on these matters are, then you're placing yourself higher than him.

 

[Treo]

I carry a gun to level the field nothing more, nothing less.

The reason the term ’Sheep dog” concerns me is because I’ve never seen anyone use it to describe themselves who wasn’t trying to aggrandize themselves. I’ve never seen anyone use it who doesn’t fit my first post.

People like nutnfancy scare me because they promote some “warrior mindset” (sheepdog whistle) mystique behind carrying a gun. Nutnfancy actually goes so far as to say it’s our ‘solemn duty” to do so.

Nutnfancy didn’t inspire me to carry; my ex SIL the drug dealer did. Well, him and the bomb that went off on my neighbor’s porch.

My life philosophy is different than most of the posters here I am not a sheep dog I am a reformed (barely) criminal. I carry a gun because I know there’s a world full of people just like me out there. They will take what they want and they don’t fight fair.

Every thing (and I mean every thing) they do has an angle. Every thing they offer you has a hook in it and if they think for a second you’re weaker than they are they will take you for everything they can.

When I’m out and about I don’t interact w/ people I don’t know unless I am forced to do so. I don’t trust you, I don’t like you. I really don’t want anything to do w/ you and, you sure as Hell are not welcome in my personal space. I avoid 90% of the predators out there just from having that attitude. They pass me right by looking for an easy mark.

 

[Beau]

This is a philosophy I recently heard from Nutnfancy on youtube. I believe fits very well with those who choose to assume the responsibility of Concealed Carry. Obviously, I believe he does a much better job of explaining it, but here I go.

The Sheep:

The Sheep Dogs:

The Wolves:


Tell me what you think?

I think he has an affinity to four legged animals that maybe his psychiatrist should devote some time to.

Fixed it for you

Thanks. You saved me the trouble.

I carry a gun to level the field nothing more, nothing less.

People like nutnfancy scare me because they promote some “warrior mindset” (sheepdog whistle) mystique behind carrying a gun. Nutnfancy actually goes so far as to say it’s our ‘solemn duty” to do so.

.

This. I am not a dog herding the flock. I carry because I want to be able to save my own butt and the butts that I'm responsible for. If I happen to save someone else's butt in the process good for them. And of course because guns are cool.:biggrin:

I do however, possess the "warrior mindset". When I step onto a field of prairie dogs I am there to conquer all!!!! And that, is my solemn duty.

 

[Treo]

Listen all! This is the truth of it. Fighting leads to killing, and killing gets to warring. And that was damn near the death of us all. Look at us now! Busted up, and everyone talking about hard rain! But we've learned, by the dust of them all... Bartertown learned. Now, when men get to fighting, it happens here! And it finishes here! Two men enter; one man leaves.

 

[oldbanjo]

I'm not on this site a lot, it used to be interesting and educational. Now from what I see everyone wants to fight. The Gun owners whether with CWP or not need to stick together, whether CC or OC. I watch all news channels and make up my mind, I'm no follower. I carried a Gun for Family protection long before (30Yrs) Permits existed. If I see someone in need of help, even Police I intend to help them, that's the way I was brought up. Jim Jones had a following and look what happened, Beck, Palin, Hannity and O'Reilly all have followings. Divide and you will be concurred.

 

[S&WM&P40]

Thanks Banjo. Your comment will undoubtedly help ease the painful flaming I am about to endure.

I do want to mention something else, as seen over the year I've been on this board.

While a lot of members do put out good information, and well thought out posts, it's a rarity compared to the people who seem to be watching these forums every day. I listen, or read (to be more correct), and the only times I care to add my 2c, are times like these, when these same frequent posters take someone's personal philosophy and mindset, berate them for it, and then go on to bash that person's role-model who helped inspire them to CC in the first place. We're all on the same team. Don't fight your team members. I've learned a lot in the military, and I've come to blows with some of the guys in my shop, because they have a complete 180 philosophy on our job, and life as a whole. We're also a part of a crew when we do missions together, and what does all the bickering and fighting accomplish? Absolutely nothing. In fact, it puts us at greater risk because our mind has to be on the mission, and not dwelling over the nasty fight we had the day before. If we want to fight and oppose the large number of gun control supporters, we need to fight them, their legislation, and not ourselves. Splitting up our community and alienating people based off their philosophy is only going to make us weaker down the road.

So in addition to threads like these, what else do I see? Gun nuts, and yes I mean that in an insulting manner. I see a lot of these stereotypical gun nuts that post nothing but conspiracy theories, deep religious meanings behind self-defense, and of course the whole, "I need to carry to biggest bullet possible, because it will 'knock down' my aggressor." I think these types of people are way more dangerous than people like Nutnfancy, because they continue to spout their lack of fact based opinions on these boards, and when people come here looking for advice, or a, "in the middle about gun control," person comes here, all they see are threads like the above, and decide that we're all a bunch of gun nuts. Congrats, we're really winning the battle in those situations.

Now, I have been properly schooled in the past, and I could see the flaws in my logic, and why BEFORE, how I was a bit over-eager to prove myself, and why that was dangerous thinking. That was me twisting the meaning behind Grossman's philosophy, and with the help of some of these people here, I was able to truly understand it. That doesn't mean I threw out my own sense of self-worth by protecting others, only that I will be more methodical in my thinking if the time comes, to truly decide whether or not a real threat is present.

I've often thought about leaving this board. I may still do, depending on some of the newer responses this thread may get, and how they word it.

Oh, and since you've labeled me as a troll in the past, perhaps I'll add some kerosene to the fire. Did you know I voted for Obama? I'll officially apologize to you all, in my own thread, if he ever SERIOUSLY considers gun control. Until then, perhaps lay off the conspiracy theories. After all, I'm still waiting for the UN to invade as well.

I'm also Catholic, but putting a deep religious meaning behind your right to carry, or a reason to fight Muslims, is putting you right into the same group of religious extremists in my book. Yes, spirituality is a very important part of the warrior mindset, but when you assume and pretend to know what God wants, or what his views on these matters are, then you're placing yourself higher than him.

If you cant handle the fact that members may have other views then yours, and they openly state that, then go ahead and leave! Members will always be free to openly speak their minds on this forum. The fact is firearms and religion go hand and hand on this forum as over half of the members are religious in someway. Every person will and does interrupt the words of god in their own way and there is nothing wrong with that. As for the news casting about the UN, Internet being shutdown etc... You have to learn to take it all with a grain of salt. I can tell you one thing I know for sure is we stand up for our First Amendment right to free speech on this forum. I also stand behind what I said about the OP as also is my right to do so.

 

[Aresye]

Well then. Consider me gone, and enjoy the forum being cleansed of one more person who doesn't fit your viewpoints.

 

[Treo]

Divide and you will be concurred.

Or perhaps N:biggrin:n C:biggrin:ncurred.