Self Defense or the Defense of Others?

Paul_of_TX

Paul_of_TX

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Do you carry for just the defense of yourself and family or do you carry for the defense of others and their property?

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Houston man gets shot trying to stop 3 guys from robing a kwik-e-mart type store. The 3 guys are suspects in other robberies so it sound like they were not hell bent of killing and only wanted the money from the store. To me it just sounds like a bad decision to carry a gun for self defense and then shoot at armed criminals when they are not specifically a threat to myself. I carry a gun so that I can hopefully return home safely to my family. I can envision some scenarios where I would make exceptions but the robing of a convenience store would not be one of them especially when I am outnumbered.
 
Myself. I'm no sheepdog. Its not my responsibility to defend those who can't see the reality of the world or blatantly choose to ignore it. My only exception are children and the elderly because of obvious reasons. Beyond that I worry about myself and my wife that's it. If I can get out of a situation without firing a shot then I've done what I wanted to do. Nowadays you'll get hung for killing bad guys anyway.
 
I guess the easy way to sum it up for me is that I will not limit myself to defending only myself or my family. I will defend a complete stranger under the right circumstances.
 
I carry first and foremost to defend the well-being of my family or myself. Beyond that, as a combination of both previous answers, I would intervene to defend the well-being of a complete stranger (especially those unable to defend themselves) under the right circumstances.
 
I am not in law enforcement, I am not a super hero and I certainly am not a mall ninja looking for problems to solve, can you figure out what my answer is?
 
There are very limited circumstances where I would help strangers, simply because it's very difficult to know exactly what the situation is. If you pick the wrong "victim" to help (might have been the original instigator) you could wind up in legal trouble... lots of people will be only too happy to overlook what you would have seen. Also, it wouldn't be fun to shoot an undercover cop or to blow his cover. Not a very likely scenario, but you never know...

I carry to keep my family safe. Self defense is the responsibility of each individual, whether they want to accept it or not.
 
Here's some food to chew on:

Let's say you see someone being beaten up and you think they are in trouble and you get involved. What if it was a family dispute and you get involved and now both of them are angry with you? What if what you walked in on what was a sting operation with undercover LE? What if you misinterpret what is happening?

For the most part I carry for the defense of myself and my family. However, under the right circumstances and if I'm sure what I'm doing is the right thing, then yes I will get involved. But it would have to be very clear cut to me.
 
Well said. The tables could turn very quickly if you got into the middle of a family dispute. If you point the gun at one of them you might have both then turn on you.

In my CHL class the instructor told us about a situation where a mentally challenged woman was walking out of a store and her father and brother were trying to get her into the car with them. She was upset and didn't want to get into the car with them and was putting up a fight. To some outsiders it looked like this woman was in trouble so they decided to protect them woman. Guns were drawn to help protect this woman. Luckily everyone kept a cool head and the police were called. After the police got to the scene it was sorted out that these men were related to the woman and she was not in danger.

It would need to be very clear what was happening for me to jump into a situation to help and stick my life on the line.
 
Unless I KNOW what is happening, I will call 911 and be as good a witness as possible, but stay out of it myself if at all possible. As others have already said, I carry primarily to protect my family and me. After that, it will depend on the individual situation. I didn't begin carrying to be a hero or a vigilante for the public at-large.

I can speak from some experience on this one. A number of years ago, my wife and I were awakened at 2AM to the sound of one of my neighbors being pistol whipped by two unknowns. Because we didn't know what had brought it on, my .308 jungle carbine, my Mossberg 500, and my handgun all remained secured, I called 911, we monitored things from our bedroom window and I gave the police a blow by blow (literally) account of what was happening. At some point during the beating, one of the assailants decided to stop beating and begin shooting with his 9mm, and took a shot at my neighbor at point blank range - somehow missing him. At that point, I got my wife down on the floor as I continued to monitor what was happening. Evidently the assailants decided that the shot might draw some unwanted attention, and they took off. I was able to provide a description and direction of flight to the police.

To this day we do not know why the neighbor was jumped as he got home from work that night - but he also refused to press charges (while still saying that he had no idea why he was attacked), which makes the whole thing hinky. He moved out of the area in the dead of night a few weeks later.

Had I gotten involved with my firearms (from my vantage point, I couldn't have missed), I could possibly have found myself in a very bad legal situation.
 
3 armed robbers? 911 call. The numbers are bad. One customer lost his life by making the wrong decision.

It would have to be extraordinary circumstances for me to get involved. Active shooter in a mall, clear shot, would be one. Assuming there wasn't a no firearms sign on the doors. I would have become a victim by taking my sidearm back to the car.

Duty is to myself and family.
 
Twice I've stepped into a family dispute. Both times the woman turned on be and grabbed me by the hair. I'm old and my hair is thin enough without help. I'd have to know all the facts and be sure it was safe and prudent to step in.
 
I've thought about this quite often and have come to the conclusion that my primary reason for carrying is for the defense of myself and family/friends with me. As previously stated there could be too many unknown variables in play for me to act in "defense" of another that I do not know and, henceforth, I would be hesitant to act. If the circumstances are obvious (such as a guy walking around the store I'm at shooting random people) I would likely take action but I'm not going to escalate any situation. I'm sure as heck not going to risk my life to save some business their money - they can always recoup their losses. If I'm dead (or anyone for that matter) nothing is going to bring us back.
 
Before defending someone make sure you know who's who. Don't get caught between 2 bangers or between undercover LE and perps. Don't interrupt a robbery. The business is insured.
 
telpinaro said:
There are very limited circumstances where I would help strangers, simply because it's very difficult to know exactly what the situation is. If you pick the wrong "victim" to help (might have been the original instigator) you could wind up in legal trouble... lots of people will be only too happy to overlook what you would have seen. Also, it wouldn't be fun to shoot an undercover cop or to blow his cover. Not a very likely scenario, but you never know...

I carry to keep my family safe. Self defense is the responsibility of each individual, whether they want to accept it or not.
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I agree. If you are not sure what the situation is you can open yourself up for a world of hurt legally.
 
Why anyone would risk dying (or possibly causing the death of others) over the contents of a convenience store register till, I'll never know. Intervening when you (or your loved ones) are not threatened carries enormous risk. As an individual citizen you have no public commission or duty to defend others or their property. There will be no forgiveness if you are mistaken and innocents are hurt as a consequence of your action. I will defend myself and loved ones/friends with me from a direct threat. I will otherwise only intervene to stop mayhem, murder, and atrocity, if I can. An armed robbery, by itself, does not rise to that level. To intervene in an armed robbery when you are not directly threatened is to make assumptions regarding the welfare of others that I don't think you're entitled to. In the situation presented in the OP, I believe Mr. Holden (RIP) made a poor choice that needlessly resulted in his death and could also have resulted in the death of the clerk/owner as well.
 
Timothy Bryant said:
I've thought about this quite often and have come to the conclusion that my primary reason for carrying is for the defense of myself and family/friends with me. As previously stated there could be too many unknown variables in play for me to act in "defense" of another that I do not know and, henceforth, I would be hesitant to act. If the circumstances are obvious (such as a guy walking around the store I'm at shooting random people) I would likely take action but I'm not going to escalate any situation. I'm sure as heck not going to risk my life to save some business their money - they can always recoup their losses. If I'm dead (or anyone for that matter) nothing is going to bring us back.
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My thoughts exactly!
 
JCliff said:
Why anyone would risk dying (or possibly causing the death of others) over the contents of a convenience store register till, I'll never know. Intervening when you (or your loved ones) are not threatened carries enormous risk. As an individual citizen you have no public commission or duty to defend others or their property. There will be no forgiveness if you are mistaken and innocents are hurt as a consequence of your action. I will defend myself and loved ones/friends with me from a direct threat. I will otherwise only intervene to stop mayhem, murder, and atrocity, if I can. An armed robbery, by itself, does not rise to that level. To intervene in an armed robbery when you are not directly threatened is to make assumptions regarding the welfare of others that I don't think you're entitled to. In the situation presented in the OP, I believe Mr. Holden (RIP) made a poor choice that needlessly resulted in his death and could also have resulted in the death of the clerk/owner as well.
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Couldn't have said it better. Thank you. I feel the same. I'm not letting anyone be harmed but I'm not inclined to intervene in robberies or others' personal affairs.
 
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