Scenario For Review


Hewy AZSATT: Your legal quote at the end of your recent reply, keeping in mind what is happening in this country, can be shortened considerably---"there are no constitutional rights-- only government- defined rights for everything"
 

Just read Unfettered Might's post and I guess some of us, including myself will probably agree to disagree. Everything you said is correct, by the book, and makes perfect sense and is probably echoed in LEOs' manuals. It is just so totally unrelenting when it is written down. I guess what I am really saying is your first statement could or should have included a little more verbage about predetermining a lot more about the situation and its environment, with an option to calling 911. Statement 1 sounds like all hell will break loose the minute YOU see anything that YOU deem to be what it is. Many times what you see is not what is going on and there must be an "out" that does not include total conflict.

If someone walks into a store with a mask on and a gun in their hand, as the OP put the scenario, they aren't there to get their Twinky fix, at least not legally. There is no time to be on a cell phone with 911, possibly drawing attention to myself, while someone's life potentially hangs in the balance.

The OP deemed the scenario, I just answered the question. Clerks quite frequently get shot even when they do everything the perpetrator tells them to do, I'm not waiting to see which one that one is going to be. Once they are shot, it is too late. They are not just some person you don't know, they are someone's family. Would you prefer me to stand idly by while a member of your family is under direct threat of death when I have the means and training to save their life?

The process I laid out is already past the determination of what is going on, I do not and have not historically made rash decisions and that given scenario wouldn't be one. I cherish human life and pray that I never have to take a life. However, by placing someone's life in peril by way of deadly force, you have forfeited your own. I stand by my convictions.
 
Even I have thought about this scenario before, and how I would go about it were I legally allowed to carry. Simple answer, I'd shoot him.

It's like when I read in the paper here a while back that a man robbed a McDonalds with a broken beer bottle. Were I in the store I would have beaten him senseless with a chair and pinned him until the police arrived.

Generally people here are too afraid of legal repercussions if they defend life and property. I would not hesitate, that is one thing I have been taught in my line of work, act fast and deal with the situation as it develops, don't wait for it to unfold before you stop it going further, make sure you stop it before it has a chance to turn for the worse.
 
If someone walks into a store with a mask on and a gun in their hand, as the OP put the scenario, they aren't there to get their Twinky fix, at least not legally. There is no time to be on a cell phone with 911, possibly drawing attention to myself, while someone's life potentially hangs in the balance.

The OP deemed the scenario, I just answered the question. Clerks quite frequently get shot even when they do everything the perpetrator tells them to do, I'm not waiting to see which one that one is going to be. Once they are shot, it is too late. They are not just some person you don't know, they are someone's family. Would you prefer me to stand idly by while a member of your family is under direct threat of death when I have the means and training to save their life?

The process I laid out is already past the determination of what is going on, I do not and have not historically made rash decisions and that given scenario wouldn't be one. I cherish human life and pray that I never have to take a life. However, by placing someone's life in peril by way of deadly force, you have forfeited your own. I stand by my convictions.
I want to reply to this post, but seem not to have the words to do so. I completely agree!!!
 
I don't know. Is someone else s money worth a deadly confrontation on my part. What if I do engage the BG and in the shoot out an innocent bystander is hit and killed. What if it is a small child. What about all the money and time I may have to spend defending myself in a civil suit even if I do win. Some things to think about. Now if he starts taking customers and clerks to the back room or he begins shooting then of course all bets are off.

In my opinion your use common sense is sensible, IS THE MONEY WORTH IT. The justification is there to shoot, a person pulls out a weapon and points it at someone, that is THE IMMEDIATE THREAT/FEAR OF LIFE to you or to others. The TV stuff of shooting after the bad guy shoots, is for TV. All that hold it right there, drop it, freeze, is BS... Just shoot.

Remember... the IMMEDIATE threat to life... IMMEDIATE fear of life, if that isn't present, you'll have a problem.

Take the same situation but the person has NO mask and the gun in his waist band but makes it visible, and states give me all your money.


I'm not familiar with the Laws of every state on deadly force.


LE stats show that most robberies as briefly describe in this thread's scenario, the bad guy takes the money and leaves.
 
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LE stats show that most robberies as briefly describe in this thread's scenario, the bad guy takes the money and leaves.


The important word in here is MOST. If i've already become statistically unlucky enough to find myself inside a store at the time of robbery, i'm thinking murphy's law as far as the BG wanting 'no witnesses'.
 
The important word in here is MOST. If i've already become statistically unlucky enough to find myself inside a store at the time of robbery, i'm thinking murphy's law as far as the BG wanting 'no witnesses'.

Many robberies go bad because of resisting/not complying/taking action by either owners or by-standers. Your odds greatly increase to survive a robbery by complying, those favorable odds plummet when you resist.

Stats do not prove that resisting increases your odds to survive a robbery unharmed. I love watching a video of a store owner taking action against a robbery, it looks good, sounds good, and feels good. Each person has to realize their limitations under pressure on a moment notice, and then make a choice. Pressure changes everything, you can only default to your training, if you never had any training, you'll default to panic and confusion.
 
Hey gunsite: I agree totally with your last post. In the warmth and comfort of our computer rooms it is amazing how we can rid the world of all the bad guys and stop virtually every "what if" with guns ablazing. I would venture to say that very few of us have actually been involved in a "shootout" and have stopped a robbery or incident of violence with our CCWs. As much as some of us may have trained, it still is probably not enough. Personally, it would not surprise me in the least if my first actions in the middle of a really bad situation (that only involves myself(alone) or other strangers) would have more to do with my bowels than my firearm. If my family were involved, I believe my resolve and actions would be very different. Just sayin
 
Its fun to discuss scenario, mentally knowing what to do, and what not to do, can save your life, so discussing scenarios does have its merits.

LIFE is 10% Physical and 90% Mental, the thought process is amazing.

If you (the Shooter) concentrates on your Mechanics and tactics... then killing someone becomes irrelevant, they're just a target, no different than a barrel, animal, or silhouette... the minute you become emotional, or bring emotions into play, you become unstable, doubts/hesitation, and then...
 
Its fun to discuss scenario, mentally knowing what to do, and what not to do, can save your life, so discussing scenarios does have its merits.

LIFE is 10% Physical and 90% Mental, the thought process is amazing.

If you (the Shooter) concentrates on your Mechanics and tactics... then killing someone becomes irrelevant, they're just a target, no different than a barrel, animal, or silhouette... the minute you become emotional, or bring emotions into play, you become unstable, doubts/hesitation, and then...

Exactly, you have to correctly ascertain the situation and then eliminate the target(s), cold and machine like. It isn't a time for soft hearts and second guesses about killing another human being, they are a predator exerting deadly force and as such will receive unfettered deadly force in return.
 
Hey Y'all: Boy I really understand the very "black and white" responses from recent posts, but terms like "killing becomes irrelevant" and "cold and machine-like" are easy to say on a computer, but taken as stand-alone comments and visualizing them in the real world, they are extremely upsettling; I can only see "The Terminator" when I read those phrases. Please do not take my comments as a criticism of your intent, which I fully ascribe to in the context of a "what if", but I'm just sayin. I certainly can understand it if you respond with equal fervor.
 
Hey CST: Appreciate your reply to my post; it makes sense. particularly for the military, although today's army and its so-called civiiian leaders seem to see it differently as they sit in DC going to cocktail parties while some army pfc has to deal with turds in Afghan and Iraq but be nice about it. As much as we discuss "what ifs", the statistics are that we will never be put in a position where our CCWs will ever come into play. I just sensed an overriding insensitivity to literally anyone out there who does not look or act the way others expect them to look and act and a readiness to follow this dehumanizing attitude that I sense in the comments. I truly believe the comments are being made because you can easily make them at your computer and that these posters are really trying to get across the point that no one is going to harm them as long as they are CC. I apologize if I have come across in a inappropriate way; I did appreciate the comments and agree that as long as we are CC, someone else will have a life changing event in a "what if" scenario. Just felt it could have been expressed in a different manner.
 
Hey Y'all: Boy I really understand the very "black and white" responses from recent posts, but terms like "killing becomes irrelevant" and "cold and machine-like" are easy to say on a computer, but taken as stand-alone comments and visualizing them in the real world, they are extremely upsettling; I can only see "The Terminator" when I read those phrases. Please do not take my comments as a criticism of your intent, which I fully ascribe to in the context of a "what if", but I'm just sayin. I certainly can understand it if you respond with equal fervor.

If you're going to take an action, use deadly force, and stop the threat of life whether to you or another, you better believe at that particular time... killing someone must become irrelevant. Do not bring emotions into the use of deadly force if your ever think of drawing your weapon to stop a threat.

Watch a QB throw a pass while a 350 pound linemen is sprinting towards him unchallenged, and that QB stays focus and throws the pass and takes the hit, that's focus and unemotional. Watch the receiver that goes across the field and jumps up in the middle of running defensive backs also crossing the field and makes the catch and takes the hit.

The emotional QB will alter his throw, and the emotional receiver will not make the catch because he takes his eye off the ball to look where the defensive backs are in fear of getting hit.

If your going to think about killing someone at the time of using deadly force, your thought process will be blurred at a time when it needs to be clear as you default to your training. You need to draw... move... move... draw... (as needed) and hit your target with extreme prejudice.

I don't imply walking around like androids in everyday life, but you should be like an android if you decide to use deadly force/fire your weapon at ANY TARGET, if not keep your weapon holstered.
 
That's just the way it is. I am one of the most compassionate and caring persons someone could know.

However, I just have that "switch", that focus if you will. In an incident of deadly force against myself or another, I really don't care about the perpetrator. They have ceased to exist to me as a fellow human being, they are a predator and are to be eliminated with no less conviction than a wild animal charging you in the wilds.
 
That's just the way it is. I am one of the most compassionate and caring persons someone could know.

However, I just have that "switch", that focus if you will. In an incident of deadly force against myself or another, I really don't care about the perpetrator. They have ceased to exist to me as a fellow human being, they are a predator and are to be eliminated with no less conviction than a wild animal charging you in the wilds.

exactly... it doesn't call for someone to be mean, evil, cold, heartless as you walkabout society, but if you decide to use DEADLY FORCE against a target, you better be focus... with extreme prejudice.
 
Hey Y'all: I agree with all of you and tried to make that point in my posts. If faced with a "situation" I have no compulsion to "change someone's life" forever; before I purchased my first firearm I took a good look at myself in the mirror and was convinced of my conviction to use the weapon, if needed, and use it to its ultimate conclusion, if needed to defend myself. I just believe that we all, by virtue of posting on this forum, feel the same way. I just find it unnecessary to use language that has a ring to it that demeans the nature of this forum. If the scenario presents itself, it is self-evident what we will do without having to proclaim "killing is irrelevant" etc etc. The same can be said for someone exhoritng the fact that if someone enters your house "you will kill them" and not saying "you will defend yourself". I guarantee you if the perp lives and the defense finds some of this language on a forum, you will have a lot more difficulty convincing anyone that you were "just trying to defend yourself" when you scream out on this forum "killing is irrelevant and I'll kill the SOB if he steps into my house". Kind of remember where you are when you write into this forum--lots of poeple are reading and remembering.
 
In my opinion, if the BG has a gun drawn, deadly force defensive action is justified. That being said, such action may not be advisable, depending on the situation. Immediately confronting the BG without determining the risk factor to bystanders may cost more lives than waiting for a clear shot.
To me, the correct action (or inaction) is relative to more factors than can be gone into in a brief post. Every situation needs to be judged on the basis of those factors at the moment.
As far as engagement after the BG has already shot someone being merely vengeance, I disagree. As long as there are innocent bystanders (and yourself) still in danger, engagement seems a necessity to prevent further casualties.

Having already shot one person, he(or she) may decide to shoot all-no witnesses then!
 
I personally feel that this is not a one answer question. I would not be the hero unless there was no way for me to get out of there or i had a serious chance of being killed. If the gunman hasn't seen me or my family and I can get out that is exactly what i am going to do. But if i have to take him out to avoid us being killed, i hope he is good with god.
 

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