"Safe Storage" Laws = Just Another Avenue of Criminalizing Defense

[BluesStringer]

From David Codrea's blog comes this story from North Carolina where a teenager who used his granddad's Glock to defend against a home invasion, and that may land Grandpa facing charges under NC's "Safe Storage" law. So far it doesn't look like the prosecutor in the jurisdiction is inclined to press charges, but as one of the local news stations points out in hyperbolic rhetoric, the government certainly could. David explains......

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December 18, 2014 11:10 AM MST
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The man who allowed his 14-year-old grandson access to the gun used in a home defense was evidently in violation of North Carolina "safe storage" laws.

Safe Kids North Carolina

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A 14-year-old Mecklenburg County boy shot and killed an 18-year-old "youth" and threatened his 22-year-old brother with “gun violence” in a case of death-dispensing “vigilante” action, Link Removed. What’s more, the young killer’s grandfather admits leaving the loaded Glock handgun where the child had access to it, allowing him to pick it up and fire three shots, one hitting the wood railing on the porch to further illustrate the lethal danger of guns in the home.

The grandfather’s action appears to be a violation of Link Removed law. “Safe storage” is a requirement in the Tar Heel State according to Wayne Goodwin, Commissioner of the North Carolina Department of Insurance.

“North Carolina law requires that the owner or possessor of a gun must not store or leave the firearm in a condition that could be accessed and discharged by a minor who resides in the house of the gun owner,” Link Removed put out under authority of Goodwin’s department and the North Carolina Child Fatality Task Force explains. “A minor is a person who is under 18 years of age.

“If you fail to safely store your firearms, you could pay the price,” the message warns. “Not only do you put your children at risk, you could also face fines and/or jail time. You may be guilty of a Class 1 Misdemeanor if a minor gains access to your gun and ... Causes injury or death...”

“If you own a gun, it is your responsibility to store it safely,” Goodwin’s warning continues. “Obey the law.”

“Store firearms out of the reach of children and other unauthorized users,” his message mandates. “Keep them unloaded with the ammunition stored in a separate location.”

Of course, had the grandfather listened to Goodwin, his wife and three grandsons would have been at the mercy of two brazen invaders breaking into their home. The 18-year-old intruder the boy shot was reportedly trying to enter through a rear window when he ignored a warning to stop. His brother, who fled the scene, was reportedly out on probation for previous burglary attempts on the home, and was tracked down via the electronic monitor he was mandated to wear while out on bond.

Perhaps, some will say, the boy and his grandmother should not have resisted, and just given the intruders what they wanted, which may have been prescription pills. Perhaps, but there were no guarantees criminals breaking into a home they knew to be occupied would have been inclined to show mercy to those powerless to resist them, as countless documented incidents of Link Removed demonstrate. Besides, there was very little reason for the boy to trust to the benign intentions of criminals, knowing that several years earlier, Link Removed inside his automotive shop.

There is no word yet from officials on whether the grandfather and grandmother will be charged with a violation of North Carolina law. Groups advocating for so-called “safe storage” laws and characterizing self-defense as “vigilantism,” and those demanding authorities “Enforce existing gun laws,” are similarly silent. Curiously, Democrat Goodwin has not called for prosecution on his Twitter feed.

For their part, surviving family of the dead 18-year-old are Link Removed at this writing. They say he had a drug problem, and the younger brother looked up to and was strongly influenced by him. (Note that Facebook accounts exist for Isai and Carlos Delcid that appear to be likely matches. Because that has not been positively confirmed, links are not included here.)

Still, it’s not the first time we've seen similar “gun deaths” enabled by “Link Removed.” And it’s not unfair to note that in all such cases, the citizen disarmament cult would rather the defending youths had been mandated vulnerable against larger and stronger attackers by law, instead of trained and prepared. To put things perhaps indelicately, albeit truthfully because it's based on their own advocacy, they would rather see targets of criminals killed than armed.


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I know there are several North Carolinians on this forum, and I also know that NC has more than just this one rather "quirky" law. Even if y'all aren't up to taking on your legislature, a call and/or letter-writing campaign to Link Removed to tell them to knock off the anti-self-defense rhetoric seems apropos at the very least.

Thought this was an interesting story in any case. It may apply in your state, and everyone should know whether or not it does. It doesn't apply here in Alabama.

Blues

 

[BC1]

That law will be shot down for two reasons.
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1. The Heller decision determined that D.C. could not make gun owners lock or disassemble their weapon while storing in the home because that would render the weapon inoperable and unavailable for home defense.
2. The grandfather wasn't required to lock the gun because the child didn't live there. According to the pamphlet from NC. North Carolina law requires that the owner or possessor of a gun must not store or leave the firearm in a condition that could be accessed and discharged by a minor who resides in the house of the gun owner. A minor is a person who is under 18 years of age. Link Removed.
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§ 14-315.1. Storage of firearms to protect minors.
(a) Any person who resides in the same premises as a minor, owns or possesses a firearm, and stores or leaves the firearm (i) in a condition that the firearm can be discharged and (ii) in a manner that the person knew or should have known that an unsupervised minor would be able to gain access to the firearm, is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor if a minor gains access to the firearm without the lawful permission of the minor's parents or a person having charge of the minor and the minor:

(1) Possesses it in violation of G.S. 14-269.2(b);
(2) Exhibits it in a public place in a careless, angry, or threatening manner;
(3) Causes personal injury or death with it not in self defense; or
(4) Uses it in the commission of a crime.​

(b) Nothing in this section shall prohibit a person from carrying a firearm on his or her body, or placed in such close proximity that it can be used as easily and quickly as if carried on the body.
(c) This section shall not apply if the minor obtained the firearm as a result of an unlawful entry by any person.
(d) "Minor" as used in this section means a person under 18 years of age who is not emancipated. (1993, c. 558, s. 2; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 14, s. 11.)

 

[BluesStringer]

That law will be shot down for two reasons.
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1. The Heller decision determined that D.C. could not make gun owners lock or disassemble their weapon while storing in the home because that would render the weapon inoperable and unavailable for home defense.
2. The grandfather wasn't required to lock the gun because the child didn't live there. According to the pamphlet from NC. North Carolina law requires that the owner or possessor of a gun must not store or leave the firearm in a condition that could be accessed and discharged by a minor who resides in the house of the gun owner. A minor is a person who is under 18 years of age. Link Removed.
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§ 14-315.1. Storage of firearms to protect minors.
(a) Any person who resides in the same premises as a minor, owns or possesses a firearm, and stores or leaves the firearm (i) in a condition that the firearm can be discharged and (ii) in a manner that the person knew or should have known that an unsupervised minor would be able to gain access to the firearm, is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor if a minor gains access to the firearm without the lawful permission of the minor's parents or a person having charge of the minor and the minor:

(1) Possesses it in violation of G.S. 14-269.2(b);
(2) Exhibits it in a public place in a careless, angry, or threatening manner;
(3) Causes personal injury or death with it not in self defense; or
(4) Uses it in the commission of a crime.​

(b) Nothing in this section shall prohibit a person from carrying a firearm on his or her body, or placed in such close proximity that it can be used as easily and quickly as if carried on the body.
(c) This section shall not apply if the minor obtained the firearm as a result of an unlawful entry by any person.
(d) "Minor" as used in this section means a person under 18 years of age who is not emancipated. (1993, c. 558, s. 2; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 14, s. 11.)

Point 1: Not sure North Carolinians care enough to pursue it in court, though I agree with your assessment that they should win if they do.

Point 2: I grew up with my grandmother (and mother), and knew several kids who did likewise. Didn't see where in the article I posted if it was stated whether or not the 14 year old lived elsewhere. I had the impression while reading it though, that he may well live with Gramps and Granny.

On both points though, just add to the reasons why any North Carolinian who reads this should spank the TV station for the horrendous, anti-self-defense rhetoric used in their reporting the incident in any way they have available to them. Complain to the station, their sponsors and write letters to the Editors of papers/websites serving that area to expose the crappy reporting. It would appear that the kid is off the hook in any case, but that Gramps may have to defend himself in court for a justifiable homicide that he wasn't even present for. As "we" say down here in Dixie, that just ain't right.

Blues

 

[CharlesMorrison]

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[BC1]

Point 1: Not sure North Carolinians care enough to pursue it in court, though I agree with your assessment that they should win if they do.

Point 2: I grew up with my grandmother (and mother), and knew several kids who did likewise. Didn't see where in the article I posted if it was stated whether or not the 14 year old lived elsewhere. I had the impression while reading it though, that he may well live with Gramps and Granny.

On both points though, just add to the reasons why any North Carolinian who reads this should spank the TV station for the horrendous, anti-self-defense rhetoric used in their reporting the incident in any way they have available to them. Complain to the station, their sponsors and write letters to the Editors of papers/websites serving that area to expose the crappy reporting. It would appear that the kid is off the hook in any case, but that Gramps may have to defend himself in court for a justifiable homicide that he wasn't even present for. As "we" say down here in Dixie, that just ain't right.

Blues

On those points the SCOTUS decision could be raised as case-law in that no one could be convicted. I read in another article the boy was visiting his grandparents. He didn't live there.
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From the Washington Times - Anthony Hernandez was visiting his grandparents, George and Anna Marie Wyant, when he said he heard a loud bang at the back of the house around 5:15 p.m. The suspect, 18-year-old Isai Delcid, was allegedly trying to break into a back window.
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Read more: Boy, 14, fatally shoots intruder at grandmother's N.C. home - Washington Times
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Most importantly, why aren't lawyers who pursue such claims not fined and sanctioned?

 

[N R A]

Make me king, and I will make these changes, in the first 100 days.
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Every gun owner / homeowner, everyone purchasing a home, MUST own a fire rated, burglar rated, safe. No safe, no home loans, no car loans, no credit card loans. Period.
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Every gun owner / homeowner, every adult in the household must join the state level national guard, and keep their full auto rifles in their safe.
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A good solid safe, is just as, or more important than a good gun. I would encourage everyone to get a safe. Not a lock box, not a locked drawer, not a locked shed, a SAFE. If I told people here how many safes I own, you would call me a liar. (wish they were all full!)

 

[N R A]

Burglary Ratings

I picked up a UL-10 rated safe, pretty good sized, for $700 recently. Nice size for handguns, and documents. The UL-10 was replaced with a UL-15. Only difference I see is no access to electricity inside the safe. I have drilled safes for 110, but it is a bother, as they are filled with a concrete like substance, that gets pretty messy.

 

[BluesStringer]

Make me king, and I will make these changes, in the first 100 days.

Every gun owner / homeowner, everyone purchasing a home, MUST own a fire rated, burglar rated, safe. No safe, no home loans, no car loans, no credit card loans. Period.

Every gun owner / homeowner, every adult in the household must join the state level national guard, and keep their full auto rifles in their safe.

Utterly ridiculous. You not only want to infringe on gun rights, but property rights, contract rights and the volunteer status of our military. That's not called "king," that describes a freakin' tyrant.

A good solid safe, is just as, or more important than a good gun. I would encourage everyone to get a safe. Not a lock box, not a locked drawer, not a locked shed, a SAFE. If I told people here how many safes I own, you would call me a liar. (wish they were all full!)

As to the bold part, again, utterly ridiculous. I have a safe, so I'm not arguing against the premise of having one being a good idea, but "more important" than the "good" gun(s) that will be stored in it? How do you figure? I've owned hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of guns, guitars, knives, precious metals and stones over the last 40 years, but had a real safe for only the last....I don't know....eight years? 10 maybe? Whatever, it's a no-brainer to say safes are a good idea, but to say that government should not only mandate them for gun owners, but also mandate that the banking industry enforce that mandate on gun owners is about as far away from 2nd Amendment advocacy as anything I've read on this forum.

If you were king, I'd tell you that my home is my castle, you're not welcome in it (even indirectly through tyrannical mandates), and go back to your castle and mandate all you choose there. Leave me and my castle the Hell alone, your heinous.

Blues

 

[Azimuth315]

Another authoritarian statist in the milieu methinks.

May the fate of Louis XIV be shared before day 101.

Regards (of sorts ) -- Al

 

[BC1]

Burglary Ratings

I picked up a UL-10 rated safe, pretty good sized, for $700 recently. Nice size for handguns, and documents. The UL-10 was replaced with a UL-15. Only difference I see is no access to electricity inside the safe. I have drilled safes for 110, but it is a bother, as they are filled with a concrete like substance, that gets pretty messy.

That safe is fairly easy to open. The hinges are outside. Five minutes with a cutting torch. Always buy a safe with the hinges contained inside the safe. If the safe is at ground level it can be removed. The perp takes it elsewhere so he can take his time. Bolt it into the floor even if it's 1200 pounds. We lowered mine into the basement tied to the back of my truck. Had to re-enforce the stairs. After it was in I took-out the re-enforcements so the stairs will collapse if someone tries to remove it.
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I hope the joke about requiring homeowners to purchase a safe was actually a joke.

 

[Eidolon]

Make me king, and I will make these changes, in the first 100 days.
.

Every gun owner / homeowner, everyone purchasing a home, MUST own a fire rated, burglar rated, safe. No safe, no home loans, no car loans, no credit card loans. Period.
.
Every gun owner / homeowner, every adult in the household must join the state level national guard, and keep their full auto rifles in their safe.
.

A good solid safe, is just as, or more important than a good gun. I would encourage everyone to get a safe. Not a lock box, not a locked drawer, not a locked shed, a SAFE. If I told people here how many safes I own, you would call me a liar. (wish they were all full!)

I agree that safe storage is every gun owners personal (not State mandated) responsibility but as soon as you start making it a legal requirement you run into 2cnd amendment issues as well as 4th and possibly 5th amendment issues. You’re also passing an essentially unenforceable law.

If you’re going to mandate safe storage of my firearms are you also going to mandate safe storage of my household cleaners? Are you going to mandate an OHSA approved flammable liquids storage container?

There are already laws in place to deal with negligence n the part of firearms owners what are safe storage laws going to accomplish?

 

[BC1]

I agree that safe storage is every gun owners personal (not State mandated) responsibility but as soon as you start making it a legal requirement you run into 2cnd amendment issues as well as 4th and possibly 5th amendment issues. You’re also passing an essentially unenforceable law.

If you’re going to mandate safe storage of my firearms are you also going to mandate safe storage of my household cleaners? Are you going to mandate an OHSA approved flammable liquids storage container?

There are already laws in place to deal with negligence n the part of firearms owners what are safe storage laws going to accomplish?

had an interesting student recently. He had a restricted CCW permit from Putnam County, NY. He applied to have the restrictions removed. The judge agreed provided he showed proof of purchase of a safe and proof of taking a basic shooting course. I had to write a letter on his behalf to the judge summarizing his training, performance, attention to safety and target scoring. The judge lifted the restrictions. Now if this guy lived two miles further West he would be in Dutchess County where no training is required and all permits are unrestricted. Judges playing politics and God are a bad thing.

 

[JCliff]

Make me king, and I will make these changes, in the first 100 days.
.

Every gun owner / homeowner, everyone purchasing a home, MUST own a fire rated, burglar rated, safe. No safe, no home loans, no car loans, no credit card loans. Period.
.
Every gun owner / homeowner, every adult in the household must join the state level national guard, and keep their full auto rifles in their safe.
.

A good solid safe, is just as, or more important than a good gun. I would encourage everyone to get a safe. Not a lock box, not a locked drawer, not a locked shed, a SAFE. If I told people here how many safes I own, you would call me a liar. (wish they were all full!)

Umm, clear examples of the many reasons we shall not make you “king.”
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“As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master.” A. Lincoln. I have never cared much for “king for a day” musings (though I’m probably guilty of having used the phrase myself), as they inevitably represent lazy/shoddy/incomplete thinking regarding the issue(s) at hand. “King for a day” theorists are ignoring the fact that solving their pet peeve(s) in this manner would require the imposition of a great deal of force, and other cascading tyrannies, to achieve the result they desire. Real solutions to real problems in a free society require consensus, and are often difficult and take some time to achieve. If you believe in democracy and the virtues of our constitutional republic then “king for a day” musings are, well, unseemly. Your solution is statist, by qualifying/surrendering an essential liberty to the state at the point of a sword, in the name of “safety.” Unequivocally, that is the preferred “progressive” course of action for nearly everything.
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As several others in this thread have opined, it’s a great idea to have a good safe for firearm storage. Not everyone can afford one, or put one of those behemoths into their residence (say a second story apartment?), and I would not advocate qualifying an essential liberty in such a manner. Firearm owners need to ensure that their firearm does not come into the hands of someone not authorized to have it. It’s the responsibility of the individual firearm owner to determine the requirements for this specific to his/her household. There are any number of different ways this can be accomplished.
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By all accounts presented in the OP, that 14 year old did a man’s service defending his grandmother & brothers in her residence from a criminal invader. After teaching the boy how to use a firearm, it seems clear the grandfather trusted enough in the lad’s maturity and judgment to let him know about the firearm in the residence. In this case it also seems clear the grandfather’s judgment was vindicated. Once again, a poorly written law could be used to target the law-abiding. The law needs to differentiate between unlawful/negligent and lawful use of the firearm.

 

[N R A]

My state, recently had a 8 year old, shoot and kill a 1 year old, with his mothers boyfriends .22 rifle. The parents knew the child was troubled. Child was not allowed around knives, parents were ordered to keep knives away from the boy, by child protective services.

I know you cannot mandate intelligence, but no mater what side of the fence you are on, there is a 1 year old dead child. Mother, boyfriend, both got jail time. Jail time, does not bring the 1 year old back again.

There are people in this forum, with guns in closets, under mattresses, beside doorways. Rethink that option.

 

[nogods]

If my guns are in my safe, what am I supposed to use to shoot the burglar I find trying to break into my safe?

 

[BluesStringer]

Ahh....The ol' "if it just saves one child" trick to tear at the heartstrings and make us volunteer to give up our rights, rather than the extremely difficult method of coming out of their fortified ivory towers to actually take them.

No surprise at all that you changed your nick from a well-respected maker of decent combat weapons to one shilling for the most mealy-mouthed, noodle-spined, do-nothing, "common sense" gun control, "pro" gun rights .orgs in the country.

As I've said many times on this forum, gun owners are our own worst enemies. Here's a pin-up girl I think you can appreciate:

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[Eidolon]

I know you cannot mandate intelligence.

But you certainly seem to be trying to

Mother, boyfriend, both got jail time. Jail time, does not bring the 1 year old back again.
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What makes you think a safe storage law would have changed that? How would you have enforced you draconian measures without violating the 4th amendment?

There are people in this forum, with guns in closets, under mattresses, beside doorways. Rethink that option.

I don't have guns in any of those places but there's one on my nightstand and one in my pocket right now All of my kids are grown and gone who are you to tell me how to store my firearms in my home?

 

[JCliff]

My state, recently had a 8 year old, shoot and kill a 1 year old, with his mothers boyfriends .22 rifle. The parents knew the child was troubled. Child was not allowed around knives, parents were ordered to keep knives away from the boy, by child protective services.

I know you cannot mandate intelligence, but no mater what side of the fence you are on, there is a 1 year old dead child. Mother, boyfriend, both got jail time. Jail time, does not bring the 1 year old back again.

There are people in this forum, with guns in closets, under mattresses, beside doorways. Rethink that option.

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I agree that leaving firearms about the house as you describe is ill-advised, and I strongly discourage anyone from doing so. You’re also right that stupid can’t be fixed. The unfortunate children of stupid parents have always been, and always will be at greater risk for a lot of bad things happening to them. What is your solution for that persistent problem? Shall the state raise our children instead? Shall we mandate government-designed intelligence tests for prospective parents, replete with the latest PC notions of child rearing, and remove (by force if necessary) children from parents who don’t pass? One doesn’t have to look down that road very far to see the evil that would lead to. The incident you mention was in fact a tragedy. It was predictable and preventable, by any number of different methods not requiring a safe or being a member of the National Guard, and in the story you relate those parents suffered at least the legal/criminal consequences of their negligence. You’re right, that doesn’t bring the dead child back. That however, never makes good the argument for the elimination or significant restriction of essential liberties in a free society. Again, so-called progressive liberals throw up that straw man argument for almost anything at all… “If it saves just one child…” They’re always big on saving children at ANY cost, until you get on the subject of abortion, and the reason for that is their interest in “saving the children” is just a mask.
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Any government that tries to eliminate all the risks and vicissitudes of life will by necessity be totalitarian, thereby introducing a whole host of risks of a different nature upon its people. Prudent steps and prudent laws can and do mitigate some risks. The law in NC just needs to recognize the difference between lawful and negligent/unlawful use of a firearm, regardless of age.

 

[N R A]

Ahh....The ol' "if it just saves one child" trick to tear at the heartstrings and make us volunteer to give up our rights, rather than the extremely difficult method of coming out of their fortified ivory towers to actually take them.

No surprise at all that you changed your nick from a well-respected maker of decent combat weapons ..........

]

I changed names because i no longer carry a G20 EDC. I did for over 20 years, but i have downsized to a G23C. I have NRA on several other forums so it just makes it easier to have one name.

Do i support the NRA, GOA? In dollars and spirit, yes i do. Are they perfect? No, but they do a pretty good job maintaining our freedoms and training people to be safe around guns.

I think children are important and i fight for rights of children and neglected pets.

 

[BC1]

When I'm home my guns are within reach. When I'm not home they're locked. Pretty simple.