Restaurant carry in SC


markt99

New member
Hi all,
I'm visiting SC this weekend. I have a CHP in my home state of NC.

While looking at the SC gun laws (via the iCHL app). There is a paragraph about up to 3 years in prison for carrying in establishment that sells alcohol for on-premise consumption. However, this is not listed in the section for places you can not carry concealed.

So, will I have to disarm when dining in a restaurant that serves alcohol?

Thanks in advance.
 

chiefpropellerhead

Chiefpropellerhead
My interpretation is that you will have to disarm yourself. I too find it interesting that restaurants are not listed in the "prohibited to carry" list as well. My general rule of thumb is that if I do not feel like disarming myself to go into the establishment because they sell alcohol for on site consumption I simply do not spend my money there. Another interesting piece of information is that almost all of the restaurant managers I have spoken to about this are totally clueless about the fact that legal CWP holders are not allowed to carry concealed in their establishments. Heck, most of them do not even realize that there are folks who can legally carry concealed weapons in SC. How do you like that? I guess ignorance is bliss.
 

G50AE

Well-known member
You cannot legally carry into any establishment that serves alcohol in SC. This is the current law unfortunately. There have been efforts to change this law, but they got snagged in the last legislative session. However, I do expect that the issue will be revisited soon.
 

mappow

New member
That is correct G50AE, NO CC in any business that is licensed to sell alcohol for on premise consumption. You're also correct on revisiting this issue in the new Legislative Session next year. I hope all who reside in the State contact their representatives, both House and Senate and push them into action. Start pushing NOW. It'll take some time but we've got to spread the word.
 

chiefpropellerhead

Chiefpropellerhead
I have spoken to several restaurant managers here in Charleston and every one of them were clueless about this. As a matter of fact the managers I spoke to did not know that there was such a thing as a concealed carry permit. Imagine my astonishment. LOL
 

kelcarry

New member
Hey Chief: I do not know why you are surprised. Unless you are inclined to be CC, why would you ever know anything about such laws and regulations and, by definition, anyone who is CC in your restaurant is not going to be recognized by restaurant staff as they worry and rush about in their restaurant business.
 

SCfromNY

New member
My favorite topic. As you have said in the "restrictions" it does not mention restaurants selling alcohol for consumption. There is a code ending in "465" that claims additional fines and jail time for UNLAWFUL CARRY OF A HANDGUN IN A ESTABLISHMENT THAT SELLS ALCOHOL FOR CONSUMPTION. If you have a permit is not unlawful since it is not mentioned in the "restrictions" on the SLED website.

Looking for a TEST case. I hope we will clear this up soom.
 

FN1910

New member
First of all I am also of the opinion that from a careful reading of the SC Code it is not unlawful to carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol as long a you have a CWP so I am not arguing with you.

However the SCAG issued an opinion on April 17, 2001 and then reinterated it on Feb. 28, 2008 stating that it is illegal in restaurants or bars to carry even with a CWP. (Westlaw 2001 WL 564590 (S.C.A.G.)) I have a copy of it but it is too large to post and I cannot get it to convert to a different format.

I do not plan on being the test case but I am willing to donate to the legal fund for whoever is willing. One just has to remember that an AG opinion is just that, an opinion and in court counts no more than anyone else's opinion including yours or mine. An AG opinion is not law.
 

AndeyHall

New member
Well given that they are trying to pass a bill to allow people with a CWP to carry in restaurants that serve as long as they are not consuming themselves, I would safely assume that it is currently illegal.

That being said, my CWP instructor always went by the very wise saying: "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6". This is what I personally go by, and I tend to ignore the "No concealed weapons allowed" signs and laws such as this one that make no sense. However, I do follow the laws pertaining to gov't buildings such as police stations, court houses, hospitals, schools, etc, simply because those laws make sense to me (with the exception of schools, but I don't carry there because there is too much risk of getting caught). So before you bash me and say I'm promoting illegal activity, consider this:

There are 2 documents that I live my personal and public life by...one being the Bible and the other is our extremely well written Constitution. If you can read the 2nd amendment and find a way to justify any law prohibiting or restricting our ability to carry a firearm, which you can't because "shall not be infringed" pretty much covers all basis, then we'll all give you a round of applause and see if Congress will rewrite that amendment for us to make it better understandable. But until that time, until our government can find a way to protect it's citizens in all of the places where they restrict our ability to protect ourselves other than with some paper, ink, and some fancy wording, my gun will just have to do whether they like it or not.

I sit in a classroom at Clemson University 5 days a week for roughly 6-8 hours a day. A law telling us we can't carry a gun to class doesn't make us any safe than a law telling us we can, because the fact of the matter is someone bent on committing a crime such as a school shooting isn't worried about a petty "violation of gun law" charge. If they did then I'm sure the shooter at Virginia Tech would have been walking to campus that day and then said "Crap! I forgot I'm not legally allowed to carry a gun on school campus! I guess the plan's off now." and then would have returned home where he would leave his guns and return back to campus and attend class just like every other student. But we all know that's not what happens.

So as far as being the "test case", if it means I'm still alive to defend myself as opposed to being dead in a coffin, I'll gladly take the trial and whatever expenses come along with it. And again, if anybody can look at the statement "shall not be infringed" and then still defend any gun law legitimately, then I think we should rename the Bill of Rights the "Bill of Privileges".
 

HueMan

New member
One thing fails to be mentioned and that is the responsibility that goes along CC'ing (at least in SC) and that is the PPPA. When you CC, you are morally accepting a responsibility to protect others should the situation arise as a prudent person would do. All this being said, if you do CC in the restaurant that serves alcohol for consumption DON'T DRINK DAMMIT. That is pretty much law for states that have "law" that says you can CC in those restaurants.

I also concur with "SHALL NOT be infringed" but what I do, only I know about it. I trust in God, my wife and no one else.
 

AndeyHall

New member
One thing fails to be mentioned and that is the responsibility that goes along CC'ing (at least in SC) and that is the PPPA. When you CC, you are morally accepting a responsibility to protect others should the situation arise as a prudent person would do. All this being said, if you do CC in the restaurant that serves alcohol for consumption DON'T DRINK DAMMIT. That is pretty much law for states that have "law" that says you can CC in those restaurants.

I also concur with "SHALL NOT be infringed" but what I do, only I know about it. I trust in God, my wife and no one else.

If you haven't already, I think you would enjoy reading this:
Why should I carry a handgun?

It goes right along with what you were saying, and it's how all gun owners should feel about carrying a gun. I've printed this out for several people who condescendingly hound me about why I feel the need go carry a gun. But at 21 I end up catching a lot of crap from people who think that I only do it to "feel tough". But the fact of the matter is, I am a sociology major with an emphasis in criminal justice, and my goal is to be able to get into the US Marshal Service through an internship we have here at Clemson. I simply have a passion for law enforcement and criminal justice, so the protection of myself, my family, friends, and others is just something I feel responsible for whether I'm carrying a gun or not.

But the main thing I'm tired of is living in a society who's so hell-bent on holding the weapon accountable for the crime rather than the person. Gun bans and all that stuff doesn't protect anyone. If the gov't wants to help protect us, then what we need is to start putting criminals 6ft in the ground, and quit taking 20-30 years to do it. I believe this would start putting the fear of God in everyone who's considering trying to walk through my front door or into my school and commit some crime, or the next guys who's considering raping some girl. Then we need to quit putting this crap in the news when it does happen. The fact that we see and hear about this stuff happening every day has been proven to desensitize our opinion of crime and we begin to accept it as just a part of life. This should not be the case. We need to instill in criminals' minds that their actions WILL NOT be tolerated and that if their name even makes it to the news, it will be to let everyone know how much of a lowlife piece of crap they are. Unfortunately, Don Henley had the news pretty much figured, and their mentality is basically "it's interesting when people die...give us dirty laundry!"

Well I guess I'm done preaching.
 

FN1910

New member
One thing that I would like to point out about the moral responsibility to pretect our fellow man. Some people feel that we have that responsibility and some do not. That is immaterial in this discussion as the moral responsibility to protect/help our fellow man does not change if you have a gun. Only your ability to help may change. If you see a lady being raped does your obligation to interfere change simply because you have a gun on you? I feel that I would have a duty to help her no matter what, however my ability to help would probably be increased with the gun. A robbery in progress or any other crime would be the same. To me we have a moral obligation to help no matter what and that obligation does not increase by law or anything else simply because we have a gun. You are not deputized when you receive your CWP and do not all of a sudden become Superman. What I do see is too many people walking around with a gun thinking that just because they are carrying they are all of a sudden placed in a different category than those not carrying. I alse see too many of those same people walking around looking for an excuse to use their gun rather than an actual reason to use it. If you have to ask "Can I shoot someone" then the answer is NO.
 

BC1

,
It is very true . . . NY has one of the least restricted permits in the USA. TRY TO GET ONE!
I'm in the permit business. To date we have over 1,700 approvals and one denial... a convicted felon trying to skirt the system. A significant number of USA Carry posters have obtained an unrestricted permit through our services. This business puts me right next to CCW permit holders of all kinds. And I can tell you from experience that some should never have been granted a permit.

Despite your comments you can't carry the gun in a restuarant in SC. Your permit must also be periodically renewed. NY permits are valid for life. Who's getting restricted?
 

SCfromNY

New member
I am not disagreeing with the fact that "restaurant carry" is an issue in SC but I came from L.I. NY and have many friends wanting permits and never got them never less the "IN VALID" restrictions they put on them. I also know some with "LIFE" permits who should have lost them years ago.

Can you just walk into a gun store and purchase a handgun without a permit?
Can you carry in your car, home, or to the range without a permit?
Can you do a private sale?
Can you purchase a gun even with a permit before getting "PERMISSION"?
Can you carry in many other states with your permit?
Do you have a "Castle Doctrine"?
Permit or not will you be proned if your gun is noticed?
Are there restricted cities (NYC)? Probably never need a gun there.
Is your gun REGISTERED?
Can you legally let someone use your gun at a range or competition?
Even if wife has a permit she must list your gun to be able to legally use.
Are you "SHALL ISSUE" or restricted to the whim of county officials?
Are your neighbors contacted to see if you should have a gun?

Yeah but you can carry in a restaurant that sells alcohol. BTW . . . concealed means CONCEALED!
 

BC1

,
I am not disagreeing with the fact that "restaurant carry" is an issue in SC but I came from L.I. NY and have many friends wanting permits and never got them never less the "IN VALID" restrictions they put on them. I also know some with "LIFE" permits who should have lost them years ago.

Can you just walk into a gun store and purchase a handgun without a permit?
Can you carry in your car, home, or to the range without a permit?
Can you do a private sale?
Can you purchase a gun even with a permit before getting "PERMISSION"?
Can you carry in many other states with your permit?
Do you have a "Castle Doctrine"?
Permit or not will you be proned if your gun is noticed?
Are there restricted cities (NYC)? Probably never need a gun there.
Is your gun REGISTERED?
Can you legally let someone use your gun at a range or competition?
Even if wife has a permit she must list your gun to be able to legally use.
Are you "SHALL ISSUE" or restricted to the whim of county officials?
Are your neighbors contacted to see if you should have a gun?

Yeah but you can carry in a restaurant that sells alcohol. BTW . . . concealed means CONCEALED!
I'll take them point by point...

I don't want anyone walking into a gun store and buying a handgun without a permit. Not everyone should own a handgun. I've been shot by a student with 29 years experience as an armed guard. Bleed a little bit and your opinions will change. I want everyone to be subject to a background check and be required to a obtain a permit.

Yes I can do a private sale through a FFL holder.

I don't need permission to purchase a new gun. The judge only oversees that the proper registration occurred. I have never seen, in 17 years of providing services, a judge deny a new handgun to an existing permit holder without revoking said permit for cause.

Carrying in other states is not a NY issue. It is regulated entirely by other states.

Castle dotrine? Yes, it's alive and well in NYS. This is an area I know very well as I teach the NYS Penal Law. We also have an attorney on staff. NYS Penal Article 35 (Defense of Justification) allows for the use of deadly physical force against anyone who breaks into your home without any duty to retreat. No one in NY case law has been convicted of shooting a burglar who broke into their home. It also allows the use of deadly physical force against anyone who poses a serious threat to safety, life and limb against you or any person you defend. Such defense is predicated on the assumption you are unable to retreat either due to the surprise of an attack, an inability to retreat safely or made an unsuccessful attempt to retreat. You may stand your ground when attacked in these situations.

I don't know anyone who has ever been proned for carrying a gun. I believe open carry to be the most ludicrous, stupid and bad tactic anyone could employ. It's recipe for trouble everywhere, even in states where it's legal. The web is chock full of people who are arrested for this all over America. It's not a NY issue.

S265.20 of the NYS Penal Law provides an exemption from criminal charges against others who shoot your gun at a range or competition. In addition, out of state residents may bring their gun into NYS for training or competition and are also exempt from criminal charges under S265.20.

Article 265 prevents the criminal prosecution of any resident of your home when using an illegal gun in self defense.

Shall-issue states all reserve the right to deny when any matter of public safety is raised. No different than NY. For example, people in PA have lost permits on the opinion of a sheriff, based entirely upon the heresay of others, even without any charges. This has been widely documented.

Your neighbors in NYS are generally not contacted to see if you should have a gun. Over 1,700 permits and his has never happened to any of our clients.

Concealed? Damn right! The best tactic you'll ever forget. We teach SSS (STEALTH, SURPRISE, SKILL). Never show your enemy your defensive strategy. Been teaching tactical classes for 17 years. I've been taught this at the best schools in America, including the Lethal Force Institute (Mas Ayoob).

Residents of Westchester, Nassau and Suffolk deal with a different set of laws than thes rest of us. Your real issue lies with these counties and the cities of Albany, Rochester and NYC. Remember, NYC and Long Island comprise half of the entire state population... NYC with 10 million residents on a 4 X 12 mile island. To those upstate, NYC and Long Island are considered a separate country of foreigners and liberals. We want nothing to do with them.

Can't argue with the number of USA Carry members who obtained unrestricted CCW permits through our services.

Good points in NY:

1. License good for life.
2. No trainig requirement. No qualifying requirement.
3. No restritions on carry in bars, restaurants, churches, hospitals, public transportation. We rarely see the applicant's references checked.
4. No requirement to notify LEO of possession of a gun.
 

SCfromNY

New member
Let's look at some of your points but first the fact that you have helped 1700 obtain their permits is nice BUT a VERY small slice of the population. How many failures are there? Unless you are going to say you have a 100% success rate.

You don't like being able to walk into a gun store and buy without a permit BUT you applaud no training or qualifications required. There is a pesky little thing called the 2nd Amendment.

Working through a FFL and presenting a coupon is NOT a private sale.

Judge overseeing REGISTRATION (what we don't have)is paramount to permission unless in your world the judge never says no.

Carrying in other states IS a NYS issue. Reciprocal status mean that each state honors the other's permit. What state does NY honor? They could honor NJ since the permits are even harder to get than NY.

As the forum expert you can verify the validity of this: While what you say about NY's Castle Doctrine is true as far as I know like a true Castle Doctrine it does not exempt you from civil suits even if the shooting was legally justified.

A "SHALL ISSUE" state means that SPECIAL counties can not refuse or make there own rules. As a legal advocate I am sure that that you know while judges restrictions are added to permits they hold no letter of law, except the NYC ones, and while you may lose your permit you are innocent of charges.

Your turn.
 

BC1

,
Let's look at some of your points but first the fact that you have helped 1700 obtain their permits is nice BUT a VERY small slice of the population. How many failures are there? Unless you are going to say you have a 100% success rate.

You don't like being able to walk into a gun store and buy without a permit BUT you applaud no training or qualifications required. There is a pesky little thing called the 2nd Amendment.

Working through a FFL and presenting a coupon is NOT a private sale.

Judge overseeing REGISTRATION (what we don't have)is paramount to permission unless in your world the judge never says no.

Carrying in other states IS a NYS issue. Reciprocal status mean that each state honors the other's permit. What state does NY honor? They could honor NJ since the permits are even harder to get than NY.

As the forum expert you can verify the validity of this: While what you say about NY's Castle Doctrine is true as far as I know like a true Castle Doctrine it does not exempt you from civil suits even if the shooting was legally justified.

A "SHALL ISSUE" state means that SPECIAL counties can not refuse or make there own rules. As a legal advocate I am sure that that you know while judges restrictions are added to permits they hold no letter of law, except the NYC ones, and while you may lose your permit you are innocent of charges.

Your turn.
Approval rate is close to 100%, around 99.9%... one denial in over 1,700 permits.

I don't personally applaud the "no training" requirement. As an instructor I see some bad stuff and believe no one should be allowed to have any firearm without training. This is the state's rule, I don't applaud it.

The judge overseeing registration is not paramount to permission. The judge may not deny the license amendment unless the permit is revoked. As long as one has a permit the state does not refuse a new firearm. Find any case law to the contrary and I'll concede. Our attorney advises as long as they honor the permit. There is no limit on the number of guns or frequency of purchase in NYS. Also, there is no such thing as a CCW permit without a gun registered to the permit. So denying a permit amendment to add a gun constitutes a complete denial of the right, which has been determined unconstitutional by the SCOTUS.

Carrying in other states is not a NY issue. Presently 12 states allow carry with a NY permit. NY is wrong for not recognizing other states reciprocity but other states aren't actively punishing NY residents for this.

I personally don't want people buying and selling handguns without obtaining a NICS check or permit. Gun registration in itself is not a precursor to confiscation. Requiring SC residents to renew a CCW permit provides an opportunity to deny the renewal, immediately making the gun owner a felon. This is much worse than registration.

NJ doesn't allow CCW permits to the general public. NJ doesn't allow the carrying of a loaded firearm by its own residents. NY cannot honor a permit that one doesn't have. NJ allows firearm ownership without registration through a FOID card only. NY will allow NJ residents to enter the state and shoot under the direct supervision of an NRA instructor or at any competition.

Castle doctrine is based in the concept of "a man's home is his castle." This has nothing to do with lawsuits. It has been tagged by others because some (not all) states expanded the definition to include lawsuits. However, our attorney is unable to find any successful law suits in NYS made by a perp against his victim in a justified shooting. Althougn suits have been filed they have not survived motions to dismiss, motions for summary judgement and the decisions of juries. Try finding a case. We can't.

Shall issue does not exist anywhere. Any state can deny your right to own a gun based in cause. Such cause is generally limited to criminal or psychiatric history. In NYS, the licensing officer of any county/city can limit the carrying of a gun to certain activities, but they cannot summarily deny ownership. This has already been decided by the supreme court in both Heller and McDonald. However, we only see this in NYC, Albany, Rochester, Westchester, Nassau an Suffolk counties. Each county or city that wants to do this must request an amendment to PL 400. Suxh amendments won't pass the GOP controlled senate anymore. Most of these amendments were made some time ago when the political climate was less friendly. This is still unfortunate for those county residents as others can enter any of these counties legally armed without any problems.
 

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