Responsibility

[4Opencarry]

At 16 or 17 years of age, you can take a test and learn to drive a car. When you pass the test you are issued a drivers license. Now you are armed with a car or truck. You can choose to be responsible and obey the traffic laws. Or you can stop taking ritalin and drive into 26 people in a park or someplace heavily populated killing them all. The car can do 120 miles per hour and in some cases more. That is a deadly weapon. We should ban all cars or at least reduce their ability to drive over 10 mph. it's the only way we can protect our kids and prevent a sick person from killing innocent people. We should also make sure that people can't get a drivers license unless they can also pass a mental screening test that indicates they are not depressed or at risk of commiting homocide by car. Good idea? I didn't think so. neither is banning rifles and high capacity magazines. Instead: Come down hard on Big Pharma, get kids off of Ridalin, prozac and the like. If they are depressed, find out why and spend some time with them. Get them out of their bedroom and off violent video games and take them outside to shoot some hoop. Talk to them, listen and understand them. Place at least 2 armed guards in schools. The NRA has already offered to train these armed guards at their expense. If you must change any gun laws: I would support a test similar to a drivers test where one must pass a test (written and hands on training) to have a concealed weapon license. The rest is up to parents and responsible American adults to teach kids about responsible firearms handling and storage. I don't think any parent should buy a kid even a BB gun without lessons. It's the only way to reduce tragic events like Sandy Hook. You will never stop criminal elements and most mass shooters never had a criminal record anyway. Criminals will always have access to an AR15 with a 30 round magazine or worse. Just like junkies will always have drugs. It's illegal but that doesn't stop it or even reduce it. It just makes them want more and go to further extremes to obtain.

 

[andersonin]

40pencarry you say " If you must change any gun laws: I would support a test similar to a drivers test where one must pass a test (written and hands on training) to have a concealed weapon license."

Thanks for YOUR efforts in giving away MY kids RIGHTS under the US Constitution!

 

[fudo]

Driving is a privilege, not a right. Which other rights do you think you should have to pass a test to exercise?

 

[Gallstones]

Wall-O'-text, emotionally manipulative terminology, 4Opencarry you forgot the caplock.:biggrin:

We don't really know why children or adults suffer from emotional illness or behavioral dysfunctions. We do know that some of them are helped by some medications. We don't know just how those medications work. But since they do why not use them?

Some of what you suggest is sound, like spending time with kids, taking them out and doing stuff instead of leaving them isolated in their rooms playing video games, watching TV and on the internet. There are adults who need that kind of interaction too.

I just don't think removing the medications is one of your sound ideas.

Having an emotional or mental illness does not make a person dangerous. In most cases the affected person is too dysfunctional to formulate any kind of plan to cause harm let alone carry it out, and when they do it is usually self harm. Also, these states can be transitory, they come and go; such that in most cases a person is only affected sometimes and on the right medications those times may become rare.

Babies and bathwater, you know?

 

[leadsender]

I have to break the news to your 40pencarry but, those test that you are talking about already exist in some states. This statement is form the California HSC book "Handgun safety is the law in California. Every handgun owner should understand and follow handgun safety practices, have a basic familiarity with the operation and handling of his/her handgun, and be fully aware of the responsibility of handgun ownership. Pursuant to Penal Code section 12071 (b) any person who acquires a hand gun must have a Hand gun Safety Certificate (HSC), unless they are exempt from the HSC requirement. In order to obtain an HSC a person must pass a Department of Justice (DOJ) written test on handgun safety. The test is given by DOJ Certified Instructors, who are often located at firearms dealerships." Here in Michigan, before I got my CPL/CCW and some recent gun purchasing law changes I found out that I had to take a test before I was allowed to get a purchase permit before I bought my last hand gun. I am not going to get into all the current political stuff but the bottom line comes down to RESPONSIBILITY. Responsibility behind your actions no matter if you are driving a truck, car, bus, airplane, swinging an ax or shooting a weapon.

 

[4Opencarry]

40pencarry you say " If you must change any gun laws: I would support a test similar to a drivers test where one must pass a test (written and hands on training) to have a concealed weapon license."

Thanks for YOUR efforts in giving away MY kids RIGHTS under the US Constitution!

I have made no efforts to give away your kids rights.
I only stated that a person should have to pass a test to CONCEAL carry.
Owning a gun is a right. Concealed carry is a privilage. Screw up and see how fast the state takes your concealed license.
I hate to think the guy standing next to me is carrying a concealed weapon with no training.
In Fla, the simple class and no hands on training is a joke. It only teaches mostly laws.
He may not no when to shoot or even worse, when not to shoot.
Fortunately some people take it upon themselves to get better training.
I am retired LEO so I taught my wife. Otherwise she could have walked out of the gun show class with a certificate and not much more. Too many people don't get the additional training and that should scare you.
Anyone that knows me will tell you that I am the most firm believer in the right to bear arms. 2A
Also notice I didn't say we should ban guns or ownership. I just think people should get training. It's the responsible thing to do for all of us.
It's kinda hard to conceal an AR15, so walking down the street with one slung over your shoulder is not concealed carry.
Ultimately, I am 4opencarry (with training).

 

[nosreme]

The standard (and simplistic, and usually wrong) "right vs. privilege" rhetoric is woefully inadequate to capture the issues involved here. BTW, Constitutionally-based rights are fully subject to restrictions and qualifications.

 

[Firefighterchen]

40pencarry you say " If you must change any gun laws: I would support a test similar to a drivers test where one must pass a test (written and hands on training) to have a concealed weapon license."

Thanks for YOUR efforts in giving away MY kids RIGHTS under the US Constitution!

I have made no efforts to give away your kids rights.
I only stated that a person should have to pass a test to CONCEAL carry.
Owning a gun is a right. Concealed carry is a privilage. Screw up and see how fast the state takes your concealed license.
I hate to think the guy standing next to me is carrying a concealed weapon with no training.
In Fla, the simple class and no hands on training is a joke. It only teaches mostly laws.
He may not no when to shoot or even worse, when not to shoot.
Fortunately some people take it upon themselves to get better training.
I am retired LEO so I taught my wife. Otherwise she could have walked out of the gun show class with a certificate and not much more. Too many people don't get the additional training and that should scare you.
Anyone that knows me will tell you that I am the most firm believer in the right to bear arms. 2A
Also notice I didn't say we should ban guns or ownership. I just think people should get training. It's the responsible thing to do for all of us.
It's kinda hard to conceal an AR15, so walking down the street with one slung over your shoulder is not concealed carry.
Ultimately, I am 4opencarry (with training).

It sounds like your a firm believer in the right to keep arms, but a firm believer in infringing on the bear arms part.

Why are you afraid of people that do not have training? Is there some kind of trend showing that these people are shooting up places and killing innocents during self defense? Or is this just emotional drivel with no substantiated reasoning behind it?

WA requires no training to conceal or open carry. How come I don't hear about all the scary stories of untrained gun owners killing people?

 

[lsmurphy]

I have made no efforts to give away your kids rights.
I only stated that a person should have to pass a test to CONCEAL carry.
Owning a gun is a right. Concealed carry is a privilage. Screw up and see how fast the state takes your concealed license.
I hate to think the guy standing next to me is carrying a concealed weapon with no training.
In Fla, the simple class and no hands on training is a joke. It only teaches mostly laws.
He may not no when to shoot or even worse, when not to shoot.
Fortunately some people take it upon themselves to get better training.
I am retired LEO so I taught my wife. Otherwise she could have walked out of the gun show class with a certificate and not much more. Too many people don't get the additional training and that should scare you.
Anyone that knows me will tell you that I am the most firm believer in the right to bear arms. 2A
Also notice I didn't say we should ban guns or ownership. I just think people should get training. It's the responsible thing to do for all of us.
It's kinda hard to conceal an AR15, so walking down the street with one slung over your shoulder is not concealed carry.
Ultimately, I am 4opencarry (with training).

Well..........I'm the grader of all tests.........YOU fail.
.
How you like that?
.
It's not how well you did on the test.........it's who's grading the test that matters.
.
The Herd needs to be thinned..........extreme measures are required here.

 

[4Opencarry]

It sounds like your a firm believer in the right to keep arms, but a firm believer in infringing on the bear arms part.

Why are you afraid of people that do not have training? Is there some kind of trend showing that these people are shooting up places and killing innocents during self defense? Or is this just emotional drivel with no substantiated reasoning behind it?

WA requires no training to conceal or open carry. How come I don't hear about all the scary stories of untrained gun owners killing people?

I don't know. I don't live in WA.
In fact I try not to watch bias liberal media because it's all one sided junk.
So, I have no idea if there is some kind of trend you refer to.
But to me, it's just common sense. People that carry hand guns outside of their home should have proper training.
In the home is your business. In public is everyones business.
Keep in mind: All I said is, that is the only thing I would change.
So you have no problem with just anyone, no matter what their mentality, conceal carrying or open carrying a weapon?
I would love to see how most of them fair in a shoot-don't shoot test. Many would likely fail. LEO's fail this test in the academy all the time and they train until they pass. Do you know the feeling of an encounter and how adrenalin effects a person and their abilities to react?
If my opinion offends you, sorry.... You are certainly welcome to your own opinions. This is mine.

 

[DFuller]

I don't know. I don't live in WA.
In fact I try not to watch bias liberal media because it's all one sided junk.
So, I have no idea if there is some kind of trend you refer to.
But to me, it's just common sense. People that carry hand guns outside of their home should have proper training.
In the home is your business. In public is everyones business.
Keep in mind: All I said is, that is the only thing I would change.
So you have no problem with just anyone, no matter what their mentality, conceal carrying or open carrying a weapon?
I would love to see how most of them fair in a shoot-don't shoot test. Many would likely fail. LEO's fail this test in the academy all the time and they train until they pass. Do you know the feeling of an encounter and how adrenalin effects a person and their abilities to react?
If my opinion offends you, sorry.... You are certainly welcome to your own opinions. This is mine.

Should there also be mandatory training and testing before someone could exercise their 1st Amendment rights?




.....

We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the law breaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is responsible for his actions....Ronald Reagan

 

[4Opencarry]

Should there also be mandatory training and testing before someone could exercise their 1st Amendment rights?




.....

We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the law breaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is responsible for his actions....Ronald Reagan

No but I don't support the Journal news's release of gun owners addresses in NY either. Do you?
Just goes to show we can't have it black and white like some would hope. Guns in the hands of the wrong people are not the only weapons in society. This original post was about responsibility. Lets not get off subject.

 

[Firefighterchen]

I don't know. I don't live in WA.
In fact I try not to watch bias liberal media because it's all one sided junk.
So, I have no idea if there is some kind of trend you refer to.
But to me, it's just common sense. People that carry hand guns outside of their home should have proper training.
In the home is your business. In public is everyones business.
Keep in mind: All I said is, that is the only thing I would change.
So you have no problem with just anyone, no matter what their mentality, conceal carrying or open carrying a weapon?
I would love to see how most of them fair in a shoot-don't shoot test. Many would likely fail. LEO's fail this test in the academy all the time and they train until they pass. Do you know the feeling of an encounter and how adrenalin effects a person and their abilities to react?
If my opinion offends you, sorry.... You are certainly welcome to your own opinions. This is mine.

Well, as a resident of WA, I assure you we do not see whatever it is you are afraid of when there is no requirement for training. As far as I can tell, there is no trend that non-required training states have anymore innocent blood running down the streets either. So, how is it "common sense" if the common sense thing to do is look for the trends and base your conclusions off that research? Common sense tells me unsubstantiated fear is not common sense.

You can say that is all you would want to change, but your change is by definition an infringement. Now you can say you are all for 2A...but it doesn't make any sense (common or otherwise) to say in the same breathe you would require training.

I have absolutely no problem with the people in WA carrying firearms. Why should I be? No one here is shooting innocents during a self defense situation...if I were to start fearing that I would consider myself paranoid.

I don't care how they would fare in a shoot dont shoot scenario. I have failed PLENTY of firearms tests, and I'm PROUD of it. If I never failed a firearms test, then I have never pushed myself to be better.

I don't mind your opinions either, we all have them. I am not offended by your opinion, I was just trying to point out that IMO it is hypocritical to say you are all for the 2A and then say you would infringe on that 2A by requiring training. Maybe, you will step back for 5 minutes and think about it. IF it doesn't change your opinion, so be it, at least we had a decent conversation with no name calling.

 

[CharlesMorrison]

What about Vermont then? There is no permit system and we have constitutional carry here.
There is no training requirement to purchase, own or carry a gun either openly or concealed..
Should our news be filled with stories of untrained gun owners shooting innocents and or themselves due to a lack of training?
No such issues reported here.
That's what I love about my state, Vermont.
Go into the LGS, fill out your 4473, get your gun and ammo! Hell, load it on your way out of the store and drop it into your waistband and off you go!
I think MORE STATES should be like Vermont!

 

[4Opencarry]

I am not trying to change any gun laws or asking that we do. Notice I said "If you must change......." Thanks for your opinions. Good debate.

 

[BluesStringer]

I have made no efforts to give away your kids rights.
I only stated that a person should have to pass a test to CONCEAL carry.
Owning a gun is a right. Concealed carry is a privilage. Screw up and see how fast the state takes your concealed license.
I hate to think the guy standing next to me is carrying a concealed weapon with no training.
In Fla, the simple class and no hands on training is a joke. It only teaches mostly laws.
He may not no when to shoot or even worse, when not to shoot.
Fortunately some people take it upon themselves to get better training.
I am retired LEO so I taught my wife. Otherwise she could have walked out of the gun show class with a certificate and not much more. Too many people don't get the additional training and that should scare you.
Anyone that knows me will tell you that I am the most firm believer in the right to bear arms. 2A
Also notice I didn't say we should ban guns or ownership. I just think people should get training. It's the responsible thing to do for all of us.
It's kinda hard to conceal an AR15, so walking down the street with one slung over your shoulder is not concealed carry.
Ultimately, I am 4opencarry (with training).

It sounds like your a firm believer in the right to keep arms, but a firm believer in infringing on the bear arms part.

Why are you afraid of people that do not have training? Is there some kind of trend showing that these people are shooting up places and killing innocents during self defense? Or is this just emotional drivel with no substantiated reasoning behind it?

WA requires no training to conceal or open carry. How come I don't hear about all the scary stories of untrained gun owners killing people?

Assuming 4Opencarry is still in FLA, the same question would apply to the bordering state of Alabama. Does it bother you, 4Opencarry, that I can drive across the state line while armed, having just left my home state that makes no requirement that I be trained? There are zero training requirements here. No classes, no range-time proficiency demonstrations, nothing. Bama has a pretty good crime rate, as well as a high-percentage permit-holder populace. I don't think your assumptions can hold up to scrutiny.

That said, I agree wholeheartedly that training is a good thing. Will I go so far as to say people "should" get it whether it's required or not? Nope. That's pretty much what "law-abiding" refers to. I don't tell people who are following the law what they should do over and above the law. Training is a good idea. That's as far as I'll go. I think the reaction you got about trampling on others' rights is based in that idea, that you seem to think you are qualified to tell people who are following the law what they should do. I think you umm....should reconsider your approach.

Blues

 

[4Opencarry]

I guess there is no such thing then as an untrained, irresponsible CCW permit holder. I guess there is no such thing as an irresponsible trained driver too. I have seen some drivers you couldn't pay me to ride with. As far as I know there are no plans for a change in law that one must be trained with a gun to carry a gun so... I don't care to change any laws but if our government makes mandatory training a requirement to carry a gun, I won't be against it. Just like I am not against driver training. I prefer everyone be trained and Universal open carry. I wouldn't put a cop on the street with a gun and no training. I wouldn't send a soldier to combat with a gun and no training. I don't understand why anyone would. That said, I know the law and I am not trying to change any laws. I was expressing my views on responsibility.
I am not trying to change your minds and never was. I am not trying to tell law abiding citizens what to do either.
Please drive safely!
4Opencarry

 

[captD]

Defending youself against attack is not up for discussion. Carry, whether open or concealed, has nothing to do with "constitutional rights". We are protected against the infringement of the governing body to tell us what is "acceptable". We were protected at one point in time...

 

[Gallstones]

Should there also be mandatory training and testing before someone could exercise their 1st Amendment rights?

Having had to listen to or read what some people do with it...............maybe. :sad:

 

[itsb]

dont rember readin that our forefathers started the 2nt adment with WITH THE RIGHT TRAININ !!!!!!!