Refused to sell NC resident rifle in WI

[loud_rocker]

I stopped in a Fleet Farm store in Menomonee Fall WI while visiting family and saw a Mosin Nagant that I really wanted, but they told me that they can't sell any firearms to anyone from NC. What the heck is this? I can see a handgun as our laws are a little different than WI, but rifles?

Were they throwing me a lot of crap or is this true that I cant buy a rifle in WI. I have a NC CC license that WI recognizes so why would it matter if I bought a rifle in WI.

 

[Kalamity023]

They can sell it to you but you have to have it transferred to an FFL in NC who then transfers or to you..

 

[CLM1911]

Also it varies on your home state's laws. Some states have the law of buying a long gun from any state that borders their state. So in my home state of S.C. the law states,

SECTION 23-31-10. Purchase of rifle or shotgun in contiguous state.

"Any resident of this State including a corporation or other business entity maintaining a place of business in this State, who may lawfully purchase and receive delivery of a rifle or shotgun in this State, may purchase a rifle or shotgun in another state; provided that the sale meets the lawful requirements of each state, meets all lawful requirements of any federal statute, and is made by a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector."

So I can buy a long gun in GA. or N.C. legally. It all contingent on each states laws being followed. Maybe there is an inconsistency between N.C. & WI.'s long gun laws, but I do not see any reason why you couldn't have had the rifle transferred back to N.C.

 

[Almost_Blameless]

the way I understand this situation is.... you can only buy handguns in the state in which you reside.... rifles can be purchased in that same state, and in any state that is connected to your state...

For you to purchase the rifle you saw and wanted, you would have to have that rifle sent to an agreeable FFL in your home state... that agreeable FFL would have to send thier applicable paperwork to the shop selling the rifle (in WI), and then the rifle would be sent to the FFL in your state, and subsequently, the rifle would be transferred to you, after you pass the background check and fillout the federal forms...

I think...

 

[NavyLCDR]

The gun shop employee in Wisconsin did not understand Federal law. Also, a concealed weapons permit has nothing to do with purchasing a firearm in another state.

They can sell it to you but you have to have it transferred to an FFL in NC who then transfers or to you..

Incorrect. See Federal law quoted below.

and in any state that is connected to your state...

For you to purchase the rifle you saw and wanted, you would have to have that rifle sent to an agreeable FFL in your home state... that agreeable FFL would have to send thier applicable paperwork to the shop selling the rifle (in WI), and then the rifle would be sent to the FFL in your state, and subsequently, the rifle would be transferred to you,

Incorrect.

Before 1986, Federal law allowed rifles and shotguns to be purchased from FFLs only in contiguous states only if the laws of the states in question specifically stated that such sales/purchases were allowed. In 1986 the Federal Gun Control Act of 1968 was amended to allow rifles and shotguns to be purchased from FFLs in any state so long as the laws of both the state of the buyer and the state of the FFL were followed - which means there is no prohibition contained in either state laws. The state laws which existed prior to 1986 which were permissive only - and contained no specific prohibitions, became completely useless because those state laws prohibitied nothing, and the prohibition that was in Federal law was repealed.

See this document for a full explanation:
http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2004-08.pdf

"ATF takes the position that if the laws of a given State allow its residents to acquire a long gun in a contiguous State, those laws also allow its residents to acquire a long gun in any other State where the laws of that State permit such transactions, unless the language contained in that State’s law expressly prohibits it residents from acquiring a firearm outside that State."

The Federal law now states this:
18 USC § 922 - Unlawful acts | Title 18 - Crimes and Criminal Procedure | U.S. Code | LII / Legal Information Institute

18 USC 922 (b)(3):
"(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States),"

 

[jcreek]

Handguns and stockless shotguns must be shipped through FFLs. Rifles and shotguns with shoulder stocks do not.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Handguns and stockless shotguns must be shipped through FFLs. Rifles and shotguns with shoulder stocks do not.

Not exactly sure what you are trying to say here, but regardless, it sounds like what you are trying to say is incorrect.

1. If a NC resident wants to purchase a rifle or a shotgun in WI, the rifle or shotgun may be transferred to the NC resident by an FFL in just about any state, but the transfer MUST go through an FFL.

2. If a NC resident wants to purchase any firearm other than a rifle or a shotgun in WI, the firearm must be shipped or otherwise delivered by the seller to an FFL in NC for transfer. The seller may use their own FFL to mail the firearm to the NC FFL if they choose to (and it might be cheaper), or the private party seller can ship the firearm using UPS or FEDEX to the NC FFL, or even hand deliver it to the NC FFL.

The Federal definition of Rifle or Shotgun includes designed to be fired from the shoulder.

 

[jcreek]

Handguns and stockless shotguns must be shipped through FFLs. Rifles and shotguns with shoulder stocks do not.

Not exactly sure what you are trying to say here, but regardless, it sounds like what you are trying to say is incorrect.

1. If a NC resident wants to purchase a rifle or a shotgun in WI, the rifle or shotgun may be transferred to the NC resident by an FFL in just about any state, but the transfer MUST go through an FFL.

2. If a NC resident wants to purchase any firearm other than a rifle or a shotgun in WI, the firearm must be shipped or otherwise delivered by the seller to an FFL in NC for transfer. The seller may use their own FFL to mail the firearm to the NC FFL if they choose to (and it might be cheaper), or the private party seller can ship the firearm using UPS or FEDEX to the NC FFL, or even hand deliver it to the NC FFL.

The Federal definition of Rifle or Shotgun includes designed to be fired from the shoulder.

More or less what I was saying. If you're buying a rifle or shotgun (with a shoulder stock) from an out of state FFL you can generally walk out of the store with it.

If you are buying a handgun or pistolgrip-only shotgun from an out of state FFL, it must be transferred to an FFL in your home state. Shotguns without a shoulder stock but with a barrel greater than 18" (non-SBS) are treated the same as pistols for FFL transfer purposes.

 

[S&W645]

Not exactly sure what you are trying to say here, but regardless, it sounds like what you are trying to say is incorrect.

1. If a NC resident wants to purchase a rifle or a shotgun in WI, the rifle or shotgun may be transferred to the NC resident by an FFL in just about any state, but the transfer MUST go through an FFL.

2. If a NC resident wants to purchase any firearm other than a rifle or a shotgun in WI, the firearm must be shipped or otherwise delivered by the seller to an FFL in NC for transfer. The seller may use their own FFL to mail the firearm to the NC FFL if they choose to (and it might be cheaper), or the private party seller can ship the firearm using UPS or FEDEX to the NC FFL, or even hand deliver it to the NC FFL.

The Federal definition of Rifle or Shotgun includes designed to be fired from the shoulder.

I can tell you this, That is not what the local ATF agent will tell you in Miami-Dade County Florida. Even with the change in Federal Law, Florida still has the contiguous state rule. So as an FFL we can sell but not deliver the long gun to a NC resident in Florida. We can and do do transfers to other FFLs and them to us. I carry a copy of the FFL with me when I travel just so that shipping is easier in case I see something we/I want. As others said, WI FFL can sell and transfer to a NC FFL for pickup in NC. Rifles and shotguns can be purchased in a contiguous state as long as the purchase complies with Federal law and the laws of both states. Wisconsin Statute reads:

175.30  Purchase of firearms in contiguous states permitted. It is lawful for a resident of this state or a corporation or other business entity maintaining a place of business in this state to purchase or otherwise obtain a rifle or shotgun in a state contiguous to this state if the transfer complies with federal law and the laws of both states.
History: 1971 c. 39.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I can tell you this, That is not what the local ATF agent will tell you in Miami-Dade County Florida. Even with the change in Federal Law, Florida still has the contiguous state rule.

Really?!? That's interesting. When did Florida re-enact the contiguous state rule? It used to be Florida Statute 790.28 which was repealed on June 17, 2011. So...what statute was it re-enacted as because I don't see it in current Florida statutes? Your local ATF agent should know, right?

http://laws.flrules.org/files/Ch_2011-145.pdf

I can tell you this, That is not what the local ATF agent will tell you in Miami-Dade County Florida. Even with the change in Federal Law, Florida still has the contiguous state rule. So as an FFL we can sell but not deliver the long gun to a NC resident in Florida. We can and do do transfers to other FFLs and them to us. I carry a copy of the FFL with me when I travel just so that shipping is easier in case I see something we/I want. As others said, WI FFL can sell and transfer to a NC FFL for pickup in NC. Rifles and shotguns can be purchased in a contiguous state as long as the purchase complies with Federal law and the laws of both states. Wisconsin Statute reads:

If a Florida FFL or a Wisconsin FFL sells a rifle or a shotgun to a resident of Washington state, show us the law which prohibits the sale that is broken. There isn't any law that is broken. If there is no law that is broken, what are they going to charge you with? Your local ATF agent in Maimi-Dade County Florida is working from outdated information.

 

[NavyLCDR]

More or less what I was saying. If you're buying a rifle or shotgun (with a shoulder stock) from an out of state FFL you can generally walk out of the store with it.

If you are buying a handgun or pistolgrip-only shotgun from an out of state FFL, it must be transferred to an FFL in your home state. Shotguns without a shoulder stock but with a barrel greater than 18" (non-SBS) are treated the same as pistols for FFL transfer purposes.

Yes, it sounds like we are on the same page.

 

[S&W645]

Really?!? That's interesting. When did Florida re-enact the contiguous state rule? It used to be Florida Statute 790.28 which was repealed on June 17, 2011. So...what statute was it re-enacted as because I don't see it in current Florida statutes? Your local ATF agent should know, right?

http://laws.flrules.org/files/Ch_2011-145.pdf




If a Florida FFL or a Wisconsin FFL sells a rifle or a shotgun to a resident of Washington state, show us the law which prohibits the sale that is broken. There isn't any law that is broken. If there is no law that is broken, what are they going to charge you with? Your local ATF agent in Maimi-Dade County Florida is working from outdated information.

WI law says WI residents can only buy in contiguous states. That will also be applied to those buying in WI from out of state. As for Florida, call was made to verify in April as we had a customer who wanted to buy one. I read 790.065 (4) (c.) as you do in that only the state where buying is done applies because of the wording.

(c) This subsection does not apply to the purchase, trade, or transfer of a rifle or shotgun by a resident of this state when the resident makes such purchase, trade, or transfer from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer in another state.

 

[NavyLCDR]

WI law says WI residents can only buy in contiguous states. That will also be applied to those buying in WI from out of state.

You posted the Wisconsin law yourself, and now you are trying to tell us things that are not in it:
175.30  Purchase of firearms in contiguous states permitted. It is lawful for a resident of this state or a corporation or other business entity maintaining a place of business in this state to purchase or otherwise obtain a rifle or shotgun in a state contiguous to this state if the transfer complies with federal law and the laws of both states.
History: 1971 c. 39.

1. Where in that law do you see the word "ONLY"? I don't see it. Yet you falsely claim: WI law says WI residents can only buy in contiguous states. Yet the word "ONLY" appears nowhere in the statute.

2 Then you saw the law also applies to persons from out of state making purchases in WI. Nowhere in that statute is ANYTHING about non-residents from outside of WI purchasing firearms in WI. The statute is completely limited to apply only to WI residents purchasing outside the state, and the law prohibits absolutely NOTHING. It is an old law that was required by the GCA of 1968, which is no longer required due to an amendment in 1986, and the ATF says is now meaningless.

As for Florida, call was made to verify in April as we had a customer who wanted to buy one.

So, again...I challenge you.... post the law that makes it illegal for a Washington state resident to purchase a rifle or shotgun from an FFL in Florida. Or post the law that makes it illegal for a Florida resident to purchase a rifle or shotgun from an FFL in Washington state.

I read 790.065 (4) (c.) as you do in that only the state where buying is done applies because of the wording.

The exception that you posted in 790.065(4)(c) makes it possible for an FFL in any other state to sell a rifle or shotgun to a Florida resident because it exempts those sales from the Florida specific paperwork. The word "contiguous" nowhere appears in the statute. There is nothing in Federal law nor Florida law, nor Washington law that prohibits you from selling a Rifle or Shotgun to a Washington state resident.


You can tell us what your local agent says all day long - but they won't be able to show you an actual statute to confirm what they say either. They will just stick with "That's the way it is. That's the rule." just like you are sticking with. But the rule does not exist in writing anywhere because it was repealed from Federal law in 1986 which also made the Florida law useless, which is why the Florida law was repealed in 2011.

 

[loud_rocker]

Well I went to Gander Mountain Gun World to ask them if I could buy a rifle and they checked and said I can, just not a handgun. I called Fleet Farm up and explained to them that the restriction was only for handguns and they said Gun World is wrong their map of States they can sell to if from the ATF and it says "any firearm". I went to Cabelas and found a Mosin for $30 more and bought it after they confirmed that it was ok to sell me a rifle. I want to call the store mgr up and tell them to get their info right, but it's probably just a waste of time.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Good job shopping around, loud_rocker. Glad you found some stores that aren't afraid to follow what the law says and no more restrictions than what is actually in place. We need more people and businesses willing to do just that. The three biggest sources of misinformation regarding firearms laws continue to prove themselves to be gun store employees, LEOs and CCW instructors.