Rebuttal To Harvard's 2A Opinion


It seems we're not the only one's to disagree with Harvard's opinion of the 2A.

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HK4U

New member
2nd Amendment

It seems we're not the only one's to disagree with Harvard's opinion of the 2A.

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Last paragraph states that the left is beginning to understand that the 2nd amendment is an individual right. Now if they could get it into their heads that rights come from God and not government.
 

ishi

New member
Last paragraph states that the left is beginning to understand that the 2nd amendment is an individual right. Now if they could get it into their heads that rights come from God and not government.

Which god? This is a secular nation of laws. If Christian values were to be the foundation of our society, we would have a government of clerics like Iran. Instead we have a legal, binding social contract (the constitution) that every person of every faith can look to for protection.

I most often hear Constitutional arguments employed in defense of the right to bear arms, and I hope it stays that way. The Constitution is what we all can agree on as americans.
 

HK4U

New member
God

Which god? This is a secular nation of laws. If Christian values were to be the foundation of our society, we would have a government of clerics like Iran. Instead we have a legal, binding social contract (the constitution) that every person of every faith can look to for protection.

I most often hear Constitutional arguments employed in defense of the right to bear arms, and I hope it stays that way. The Constitution is what we all can agree on as americans.


I think not. Our nation was not founded as a secular nation. A careful study of the writtings of the founding fathers proves that, including the Decleration of Independence as well as many other quotes. We may have moved in that direction but we never started out that way and because we have moved away from God is the main reason we are in the mess we are in today.
 

ishi

New member
The only writing relevant to this issue is the Constitution itself. If our nation truly was intended to be ruled on Christian principles, that would be made explicit in the Constitution, the blueprint of governance. The only explicit statement about religion concerns the freedom of each to practice their faith without obstruction by the government. It says nothing about Christianity, nor does it mention any particular religion by name.

A Constitution founded on Christian principles would look much different. One could expect a severely curtailed first amendment which does not support cursing or blasphemies, structures to allow direct religious control of government, and all kinds of changes. It would look a lot like Iran.

I'm glad we have what we have instead. It's a good system.
 

DrDavidM

New member
I think not. Our nation was not founded as a secular nation. A careful study of the writtings of the founding fathers proves that, including the Decleration of Independence as well as many other quotes. We may have moved in that direction but we never started out that way and because we have moved away from God is the main reason we are in the mess we are in today.

I don't want to get a debate started. I just wanted to simply say I agree with this statement.

Maybe, the antis are beginning to understand what he second amendment really says, even though they do not agree with it.
 

sailor

New member
Harvards 2A opinion and 2A Rights

The Harvard opinin piece does clearly NOT understand that "We are Endowed by Our Creator with Certain Inalienable Rights" (U.S. Declaration of Independence). Government, secular or religious, does not "Endow Certain Inalienalble Rightst", those Rights exist for all people ("Right of the People"), except when they are denied by government (tyrany). You can say secular all day long, it does not reflect the writings of the Founding Fathers. The main thing, secular or religious, is to forever treasure and protect those Rights that were bought for us with blood and treasure.
Respectfully - sailor
 

Puppy

New member
Which god? This is a secular nation of laws. If Christian values were to be the foundation of our society, we would have a government of clerics like Iran. Instead we have a legal, binding social contract (the constitution) that every person of every faith can look to for protection.

I most often hear Constitutional arguments employed in defense of the right to bear arms, and I hope it stays that way. The Constitution is what we all can agree on as americans.

+ 1 (Maybe he meant Allah? :rolleyes:)
 

Puppy

New member
I think not. Our nation was not founded as a secular nation. A careful study of the writtings of the founding fathers proves that, including the Decleration of Independence as well as many other quotes. We may have moved in that direction but we never started out that way and because we have moved away from God is the main reason we are in the mess we are in today.

Adulterated hog wash. A careful study of the writings of the founding fathers proves the exact opposite of what you say. Washington, Jefferson, in fact none of the better known founding fathers was Christian.

Let's start with Thomas Jefferson:

"And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His Father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva, in the brain of Jupiter."

"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites."

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."

How about John Adams? He wrote:

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed."

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."

or James Madison who wrote:

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people."

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." April 1, 1774

"...the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State" Letter to Robert Walsh, Mar. 2, 1819

"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together" Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

Not exactly a founding father, but here is what Abraham Lincoln had to say on the subject.

""The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."

These wise men had seen the negative effects on freedom caused by religions in Europe and wanted no part of it. Even more to the point they had seen the effects in colonial America when the early states even passed laws requiring the execution of people who dared to practice a faith other than the approved faith of their own state.

You Sir, have been brain washed by the very people our founding fathers warned against.
 

sailor

New member
Rights of the People

Adulterated hog wash. A careful study of the writings of the founding fathers proves the exact opposite of what you say. Washington, Jefferson, in fact none of the better known founding fathers was Christian.

Let's start with Thomas Jefferson:

"And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His Father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva, in the brain of Jupiter."

"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites."

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."

How about John Adams? He wrote:

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed."

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."

or James Madison who wrote:

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people."

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." April 1, 1774

"...the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State" Letter to Robert Walsh, Mar. 2, 1819

"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together" Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

Not exactly a founding father, but here is what Abraham Lincoln had to say on the subject.

""The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."

These wise men had seen the negative effects on freedom caused by religions in Europe and wanted no part of it. Even more to the point they had seen the effects in colonial America when the early states even passed laws requiring the execution of people who dared to practice a faith other than the approved faith of their own state.

You Sir, have been brain washed by the very people our founding fathers warned against.

I feel that the above quotes miss the mark of the OP discussion, in that they are quoting feelings about RELIGIOUS DOGMA that the stated Founding Fathers had. The enduring documents that they did write use (for instance, and not all inclusive) the terms "the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them" and "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, ..." (Declaration of Independence - written by Thomas Jefferson). Just an obvious example of the larger frame of reference that specifically Thomas Jefferson had, beyond his problems with church dogma. The point being, there was considered that there is something more than government involved with a persons Rights (Nature's God; and, their Creator) - unalienalble belonging to you, without reservation, without the governments OK. That is the basis for refuting the Harvard opinion, nothing to do with religion or not, or do you feel that we do NOT have Unalienable Rights, seperate from government?
sailor
 

Puppy

New member
I feel that the above quotes miss the mark of the OP discussion, in that they are quoting feelings about RELIGIOUS DOGMA that the stated Founding Fathers had. The enduring documents that they did write use (for instance, and not all inclusive) the terms "the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them" and "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, ..." (Declaration of Independence - written by Thomas Jefferson). Just an obvious example of the larger frame of reference that specifically Thomas Jefferson had, beyond his problems with church dogma. The point being, there was considered that there is something more than government involved with a persons Rights (Nature's God; and, their Creator) - unalienalble belonging to you, without reservation, without the governments OK. That is the basis for refuting the Harvard opinion, nothing to do with religion or not, or do you feel that we do NOT have Unalienable Rights, seperate from government?
sailor

I agree with you. My point was that many people try to claim that this country was based upon the Judeo/Christian principles when they simply were not. They were based upon universal principles. Many of the founding fathers and virtually all of the most famous ones were deists.

Even the only two references found in those early writings, "Natures God" and "Creator" were deist phrases indicating their animosity to conventional religion.

We have a host of people today, in politics and out, who insist we must go back to the biblical principles of out founding fathers. First, you can't go back to some place you've never been.

Secondly, that is the exact opposite of the founding fathers vision of this country.
 

kwo51

New member
I would have to disagree with you. James Madisons"To rest all our political experiments on the capacity of mankind for self -government". the independent churches had done more than any other single agency to develop. Self government was a product of a Higher Life form than we seem to have today running our streets.
 

HK4U

New member
God and the founding fathers

Adulterated hog wash. A careful study of the writings of the founding fathers proves the exact opposite of what you say. Washington, Jefferson, in fact none of the better known founding fathers was Christian.

Let's start with Thomas Jefferson:

"And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His Father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva, in the brain of Jupiter."

"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites."

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."

How about John Adams? He wrote:

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed."

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."

or James Madison who wrote:

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people."

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." April 1, 1774

"...the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State" Letter to Robert Walsh, Mar. 2, 1819

"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together" Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

Not exactly a founding father, but here is what Abraham Lincoln had to say on the subject.

""The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."

These wise men had seen the negative effects on freedom caused by religions in Europe and wanted no part of it. Even more to the point they had seen the effects in colonial America when the early states even passed laws requiring the execution of people who dared to practice a faith other than the approved faith of their own state.

You Sir, have been brain washed by the very people our founding fathers warned against.



....and I can give a multitude of writtings that prove just the opposite. More to follow later.
 

kwo51

New member
Christian domgma is what you get when you try to Figure out God. No athist in fox holes, And with a 50/ 50 chance their is life after death why not pray.
 

HK4U

New member
I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We ahve been assured, Sir, in the sacred Writings, that "except the Lord build a house,they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without HIs concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reporach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance. war and conquest. Benjamin Franklin.


I concur with the author in considering the moral precepts of Jesus as more pure, correct, and sublime than those of ancient philosphers. Thomas Jefferson


Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. John Adams.

Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefullness. In vain,w without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrechments around our institutions. Bibls are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience. James Mc Henry, signer of the Constitution.
 

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