Question to those who have been in a firefight with an alternate weapon


H

Hootus

New member
I have a concern about my instinctive response with my concealed carry weapon should I ever have to use it. I have been in instantaneous life-threatening situations on a motorcycle before and fully subscribe to the axiom that when the SHTF and there is no time to think, we revert to our training and practice. When the adrenaline hits there is no way to think around new practice; we do what we trained for and did before. With that said, I have a question.

The situation I ponder now is if, as a CWP holder, I am presented with a threat requiring immediate reaction that I must respond to with my weapon in defense. I am aware from my own life-threatening experience on motorcycles and also from reading combat stories that I will revert to a sort of brain-lock survival tunnel vision mode if I am ever placed in this situation.

Here is the setup to my question: I now have three carry weapons. A Ruger LCP for summertime carry, a Glock 26 for regular EDC, and also a 1911 style .45 for when I can carry the bigdog 45; mostly during wintertime. I have extensive range practice with all of these pistols and am intricatley familiar with all of them.

If the SHTF, the usual carry Glock is simple. Hit the bang switch. The Ruger LCP is different: it has about a two-foot long trigger pull before going bang. The 1911 has a trigger pull similar to the Glock, but requires disengaging the thumb safety before firing.

Here's my question: I can train all I want to with these different firearms, but if presented with a true life-threatening instantaneous event, what will I do instinctively? If I have three different systems I carry at different times, will I pull my 1911 and forget to disengage the thumb safety? Will I pull out my LCP and not pull the trigger far enough? Will I pull the Glock 26 thinking it's the LCP and go bang way too early? I'm thinking that if I ever get in this situation, my mind will go south and there will be no luxury of higher-level ruminations and options such as these. Only "pull and hope for bang".

This is a serious question that may determine my weapon choice and possible changes I make. I am satisfied with all my carries, but wonder if I need to train with only one type and ditch the rest. For example, if I stick with the LCP for summer carry, then I'd have to forego the Glock or 1911 for other times and instead get an LC9 with a similar action to the LCP. That doesn't appeal to me: I'd rather assume that I can train to shoot the .45 but still be able to regear to another weapon instinctively without thinking if I was carrying an alternate weapon at the time. Can the mind do this under stress?

As it stands in the everyday world, I can bring all weapons to the range and quickly adjust to each one without thinking and manipulate the various safeties and idiosyncrasies of each without thought and cognitively be aware of which is which in my hand..... but that is at the range and without stress.

If possible I'd like to hear from anyone who has actually been in a gunbattle having to resort to a different / secondary firearm with a different trigger action, or has direct firsthand knowledge of this type of event. I have not been in the military; maybe those who have had to use different weapons under the stress of battle could enlighten me on whether the cognitive brain can overcome that stress and adjust to manipulating different weaponry in the heat of the moment.

Thanks for any experienced insight you may provide. :)
 

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I have not been in a gun fight, but here is something to think about. You borrow your daughters car and are on the turnpike crusing at 70mph when some shmuck cuts into your lane or slams on his brakes, you have a split second to react, you do, even though it is not your car and you have been driving it for 10 minutes, it is still a car. you brain has the time to process the information needed to react, even though the reaction is instinctive from all of your years of driving.. It really isn't reaction at all, your brain anilized the threat, and told your muscles to react, because it has been trained for so many years..... A new or inexperianced driver would not have that luxurey..... Even when you know impact is emminant your mind still has the time to think, oh F**K this is gonna hurt... Train well and trust in your reactions..
 
There have been a lot of studies done on this. But they substantially say the same thing:

When faced with a short range threat (inside 21 feet or so) your body will react by dropping into a fighting crouch. You will instinctively grasp your pistol one-handed - gripping it convulsively and jerking away at the trigger. Murphy's law says you'll forget about the safety if there is one on that particular weapon.

Honestly - this is a big part of why I sold my Makarov (two actions to fire after drawing - safety off and DA the trigger) and bought my M&P 45 (one action to draw after firing since safety is on the trigger).

Three modes of fire - you're asking for trouble. I suggest you train for defense with the simplest gun to operate, and keep the others for banging away at the range.
 
Philip Gain is correct. I participated in a couple firefights - military, long range. The reaction when you first realize you are being shot at is instinctive. Only after the first several seconds you start thinking.
My advice is: carry one of the guns that need minimum brain involvement.
 
Gotta agree with Willie in this case, brother. In a firefight, I have engaged with both my M4 and my Beretta M9 in my role as a member of a Protective Services Detachment in Kirkuk, Iraq. There was no difference caused by the weapon I used, but I had practiced to the point of muscle memory, so it wasn't a conscious thought so much as a reflexive reaction. Practice making that safety on the .45 part of your draw routine enough, and if a situation arises (God forbid) you will be ready.
 
iF you carry all guns in the same position (example- on the hip), you will 'automatically' go there for your gun at that position.. (read The Draw, Muscle Memory and Mindset on this forum) with short trigger pull compared to long trigger pull (Glock compared to LCP) you may not reset your trigger in a rapid fire situation. As far as keeping your finger off the trigger till you clear holster (read The Draw, Muscle Memory and Mindset) Tgis needs to be built in from training. Anything is possible on the range- where we want it to be possible is everywhere else! How do we make this possible? Proper training and practicing the skills learned from that! Look, if it won't work in training, it prolly won't work in reality. If you want to know where the best training available is to be had: email me because I know :)
 
I have to agree that training, training, training is the key in any situation, although no one can train for every possible situation that may come. But more than half of your training is mental preparation in knowing what to do when it happens. Now I'm very aware of the brain and body reacting to life threatening situations after spending 15 years in the Army, you are tested continually, especially in combat where all hell breaks loose and you have no time to think. But one thing you will always rely on is your training as it has an automatic kick in to save your life. The reason for a back-up is for several reasons, i.e., out of ammo in primary, loss of primary firearm, firearm has jammed to where it is froze, etc., this means this is your secondary life line and one should train with this firearm as well from the position you carry to the full operation of that firearm. If this is a problem change the back-up to a firearm you know, if you like the Glock 22 then carry a Glock compact. I love the Ruger GP 100 357 Mag and I also carry a Ruger Security Six 357 Mag, but my Walther PPS 9mm is with me as well. But the key is Training, Training, Training.
 
I make a point of only carrying DA/SA pistols and only on my right hip. I practice my draw daily. I do not practice "quick draws" I practice drawing correctly and firing as soon as I am on target. the last time I had to draw my gun I had it out and on target before I even thought about it.
 
Consistency of carry guns

wild eyed willy said:
I have not been in a gun fight, but here is something to think about. You borrow your daughters car and are on the turnpike crusing at 70mph when some shmuck cuts into your lane or slams on his brakes, you have a split second to react, you do, even though it is not your car and you have been driving it for 10 minutes, it is still a car. you brain has the time to process the information needed to react, even though the reaction is instinctive from all of your years of driving.. It really isn't reaction at all, your brain anilized the threat, and told your muscles to react, because it has been trained for so many years..... A new or inexperianced driver would not have that luxurey..... Even when you know impact is emminant your mind still has the time to think, oh F**K this is gonna hurt... Train well and trust in your reactions..
Click to expand...

wild eyed willy: You are saying that the basic mechanics are the same across all cars, and ergo, across all guns. Turn the steering wheel, hit the gas or brakes = grip the gun, pull the trigger, right? I get what you are saying, but my own feeling is that everyone has a better chance at reacting quickly and correctly in their OWN vehicle because they know where all the controls are located because they have USED/PRACTICED with them consistently. How many of us fumble for the cruise control when we drive a car we are unfamiliar with? How many of us unerringly reach for a hand brake only to find that the car you borrowed has a foot brake? Granted, these are extras and not fundamentals, but they do make operating the vehicle more of a thinking process rather than just a reaction. I would consider the safety on a 1911 to be much like the cruise control.... Mostly, though, I just don't feel comfortable in someone else's car....and I think being comfortable with your tools--be it a car, a gun, or anything else--makes your work more fluid and effective overall.

Hootus: From all that I have researched, the premise remains the same: practice, practice, practice and consistently use the same muscle movements because muscles have MEMORY. We don't want to THINK THROUGH THE PROCESS under stress--it adds precious time to our reactions. If you practice two different movements, you have just added something to the process: deciding which action to take with THIS gun. Sure, you have practiced with all 3 guns, but now your brain has to take extra time to determine WHICH GUN YOU ARE USING in order to retrieve the memory.

I've never been in a gunfight, and I am by no means an expert in combat situations. For those very reasons, I try to make everything as SIMPLE AND FAST as possible. I limit the choices, I limit the options, I limit as much extraneous stuff as possible to make my reaction FASTER. I have taken to buying guns that operate the same (not necessarily the same trigger pull, but ones that require the same muscle operations) and I practice as much as I can. I believe that if the SHTF, LESS MUSCLE MEMORY OPTIONS will make my response as fast as possible, and give me a better chance at survival.

YMMV, and I'm sure others will weigh in on the other side of the fence. As with everything here in the forums, you have to do what you believe FITS YOU the best. The great thing is that you will get different points of view (hopefully all helpful and not judgmental), and lots of good ideas to think about as you factor in all the data to make your choices.

Best of luck,
 
Single "modus operandi". In my case, with autos, safety off - squeeze trigger (DA). I won't have an auto that is different in operation than that. Wheel guns, DA, no safety to worry about.

Training comes in teaching yourself to do a "DA" trigger pull and NOT push or pull the pistol off target. (Not as easy as one thinks.)

Edit: Oh. When I practice drawing.... I do find myself trying to click the safety off my Ruger SP 101. Matter of habit.

GG
 
It would always be preferable to have your own equiptment, no arguement there, but in the scenerio I posted, that isn't the case.. In the 10 min. spent driving the unfirmillier car, your brain recorded enough information to be able to react accordingly.

When you change out your carry for a different one, your mind thinks about the changes needed, because you are thinking about them... your mind will hold this information as long as needed.... Look at a phone number, you keep your number in your head while it is yours.. as soon as you no longer need it, it's gone....

you also need to look at how often ( draw weapon and fire) is actually needed..... I am no expert but I suspect the amount of confrontations that require ( draw weapon and fire) are so infrequent that youd have a much better chance of winning the lottery than finding yourself in this situation... People in general tend to be somewhat cautious, I suspect most, but not all, Bad Guys are too... We wait to see what will happen next... Take a fist fight, you punch some guy in the mouth, and wait to watch the reaction.. I suspect most criminals are the same, meaning, (confrontation, wait and see reaction.) I think only a very trainned BG would keep the attack going fast and without concern for your reactions..... You should have plenty of time in most situations to think about your responce... In a surprise attack the BG has the entire advantage, the elliment of surprise is hard to beat...
 
Willy and Hootis,
Think about this from your auto scenario: the brake on one auto is in the same position as any other auto. If the auto has a clutch yet yours doesn't, in that moment before impact you most likely would not press the clutch. This is because you are not used to it. Muscle memory. During combat, in that moment of truth-be it auto or combat- the ability to rationally think is near non-existent.
I used to carry on my hip, for years, and for several months I studied appendix carry. Once I found the correct holster and went through some force on force training, I swapped carry positions. My first class I taught after going appendix carry was less than a week later. During the class while discussing the draw, I drew 3 different times, al the while talking to the class and not focused on myself. All 3 times I went for my pistola on my hip, and it wasn't there! What I learned that day was an important lesson on muscle memory. Think about how I would have surely reacted in a reactive situation. Reactive is muscle memory. Proactive is thought process. Simple is good in combat. Don't complicate it. That will compromise your abilities.
 
My wife and I own at present 13 hand guns, a mix of Glocks, Taurus, and Ruger's, and two small NA 22 mag revolvers, (there very small and hind anywhere), I prefer the Glock, she like the littles Taurus for main carry, BUT i know theres always a but, All our guns are ready to grab and shoot by just pulling the trigger, the pistols with manual safetys are not used, no matter which gun we carry that day, I agree this way may not be for everyone, but at least you dont have to remember what gun you have with you, or which safety to disengage
 
A lot of good replies here. My original thought/concern results from two conflicting ideas, both of which have been brought out in this thread.

My gut tells me that the extra thumb safety on the .45 adds an extra step to mess up in the equation, and three different shooting platforms is indeed asking for trouble and confusion. However on the other hand (to use the auto analogy that has been brought up) I commonly drive three different vehicle platforms with no mental adjustment; I do it totally instinctively. I ride a motorcycle, my auto is a stick shift, and my wife's car (which I drive almost as often as my own) is an automatic. Transisitioning from one to another takes absolutely no thought on my part - when I am in my wife's car I have never tried to push a clutch in with my left foot, while in mine I have never forgot to use the clutch, and on my cycle I have never forgot to shift gears or had a momemtary brain-fart that caused me to try to operate those controls as if they were auto controls. I should add that in all those miles I have been in many, many, MANY situations requiring instantaneous action/manuevering/downshifting/etc to avoid a collision and under that stress I have always done so instinctively with no confusion - and I am accident free for over a million miles.

Training, training, training keeps coming up in this thread. Maybe I've never had a problem transistioning in vehicles because I have spent a million miles, decades of time, on a daily basis operating all types of vehicles. I will never have that much training with a firearm.

I WANT to carry that .45 but it is big and heavy and I am a small guy - no way to carry it in hot weather, and SC winters are pretty short and mild. I am inclined to possibly give that a rest and stay with the Glock and Ruger LCP. I don't really like the caliber of the LCP, but the little thing is so stinkin' easy to carry I have it with me all the time. I don't have to dress around it and it is so comfortable to carry that I have gotten to the point I forget I have it. I do have to dress around the Glock, but at least it is a pull-go-bang pistol the same as the LCP. I am leaning toward appendix carry for the Glock. I think it is smarter to carry both the same, but the LCP is already usually in my front pocket, I'm a jeans guy, and that fat Glock ain't gonna fit there.

Thanks for the replies.
 
Carry 1911 winter and summer and practice with it, practice, practice, practice, I find that when my other hand reaches the gun safety comes off, when carrying another gun still sweep safety, not a problem though. Agree on practice.
 
Hootus said:
A lot of good replies here. My original thought/concern results from two conflicting ideas, both of which have been brought out in this thread.

My gut tells me that the extra thumb safety on the .45 adds an extra step to mess up in the equation, and three different shooting platforms is indeed asking for trouble and confusion. However on the other hand (to use the auto analogy that has been brought up) I commonly drive three different vehicle platforms with no mental adjustment; I do it totally instinctively. I ride a motorcycle, my auto is a stick shift, and my wife's car (which I drive almost as often as my own) is an automatic. Transisitioning from one to another takes absolutely no thought on my part - when I am in my wife's car I have never tried to push a clutch in with my left foot, while in mine I have never forgot to use the clutch, and on my cycle I have never forgot to shift gears or had a momemtary brain-fart that caused me to try to operate those controls as if they were auto controls. I should add that in all those miles I have been in many, many, MANY situations requiring instantaneous action/manuevering/downshifting/etc to avoid a collision and under that stress I have always done so instinctively with no confusion - and I am accident free for over a million miles.

Training, training, training keeps coming up in this thread. Maybe I've never had a problem transistioning in vehicles because I have spent a million miles, decades of time, on a daily basis operating all types of vehicles. I will never have that much training with a firearm.

I WANT to carry that .45 but it is big and heavy and I am a small guy - no way to carry it in hot weather, and SC winters are pretty short and mild. I am inclined to possibly give that a rest and stay with the Glock and Ruger LCP. I don't really like the caliber of the LCP, but the little thing is so stinkin' easy to carry I have it with me all the time. I don't have to dress around it and it is so comfortable to carry that I have gotten to the point I forget I have it. I do have to dress around the Glock, but at least it is a pull-go-bang pistol the same as the LCP. I am leaning toward appendix carry for the Glock. I think it is smarter to carry both the same, but the LCP is already usually in my front pocket, I'm a jeans guy, and that fat Glock ain't gonna fit there.

Thanks for the replies.
Click to expand...
Glad we could all hep add to the confusion. LOL
 
All good points. This thread has got me to thinking... I am now considering a light 45 (like a Kimber Ultra) and practice practice practice for muscle memory with its thumb safety. Then if I have to draw the Glock under pressure, it won't cost any measurable time if I try to flip a nonexistent thumb switch while preparing to fire the weapon.

I think. (?)
 
Hootus said:
All good points. This thread has got me to thinking... I am now considering a light 45 (like a Kimber Ultra) and practice practice practice for muscle memory with its thumb safety. Then if I have to draw the Glock under pressure, it won't cost any measurable time if I try to flip a nonexistent thumb switch while preparing to fire the weapon.

I think. (?)
Click to expand...
Is it you just want to carry a 45 or you wanted the 1911 style?.......if its just haveing a 45, the Small Kimber is a good choice, but its a little rich for a lot of people, have you tryed a Glock 36, small for a 45, conceals well, and being a Glock, its super simple to operate, and go's bang every time
 
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