Question about carrying in vehicle across non-recip states

[westfield]

I'm new here so I apologize if this has been answered in the past but I could not find any reference to the question.
I have a Texas CCW...I am going to do a lot of travelling by car...I know I can't carry concealed in states like New Jersey, New York and CT. Can I travel with my handgun across these states if it is locked away maybe even disassembled?
I tried calling one state PD and they were less than friendly...Any wisdom would be helpful..
Thanks

 

[NavyLCDR]

18 USC 926A, Firearms Owners Protection Act (FOPA):
Link Removed

Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

Not saying it won't keep you from getting arrested in states like New York that claim to be exempt from Federal law, but, if you are, as soon as the case hits a Federal court, IF you abided by FOPA, it should get tossed out.

A couple of states like Ohio and I think Iowa consider a loaded magazine in a vehicle as a loaded gun.

 

[JJFlash]

Westfield, NavyLT seems to be on top of these type issues, so take the advice in good stead. Surely, if the weapon is unloaded, locked in its case, and ammo is separate and both are in the trunk, I don't see how you could be much more "safe" (in a legal sense) than this. Remember, also, NOT to consent to a search of your vehicle in the event of a "routine" traffic stop; might just save yourself additional hassle. I defer to NavyLT for any correction of this post.

 

[NavyLCDR]

No corrections to that! If asked, "Do you have any weapons", the safest answer is, "I am TRANSPORTING an unloaded firearm locked in the trunk per all requirements of the Federal Firearms Owners Protection Act." Do not use the word carrying. And NEVER consent to a search no matter what they threaten to do.

Watch "BUSTED: A citizen's guide to surviving a police encounter" by flexyourrights.org. You can find it on youtube or flexyourrights.org.

 

[ReadnFool]

It has also been recommended that you print out copies of the applicable laws and keep them with you. That way if the officer is not properly trained or familair with the legalities you can provide that information. Not that this will keep you from having problems with an uncooperative officer, but it keeps them from using the defense that they were not aware and keeps your options open with regards to being able to sue them or use the threat of a suit to recover your weapon or expunge your record. I have heard this specifically with regards to the letter from the attorney general refering to transporting firearms in your luggage through airports, but it is equally applicable for vehicular travel.

 

[JJFlash]

No corrections to that! If asked, "Do you have any weapons", the safest answer is, "I am TRANSPORTING an unloaded firearm locked in the trunk per all requirements of the Federal Firearms Owners Protection Act." Do not use the word carrying. And NEVER consent to a search no matter what they threaten to do.

Watch "BUSTED: A citizen's guide to surviving a police encounter" by flexyourrights.org. You can find it on youtube or flexyourrights.org.

NavyLT, if we inform LE that we are transporting, does LE have grounds for search? It just seems like that if we admit to having weapons anywhere in the vehicle, then we've opened the door...On another thread about notifying LE on a traffic stop that you're carrying (when the state doesn't require you to), it was noted that if we are legal, then there is no legal reason to inform them. Does not the same apply, here? If we're legally transporting, then why should we have to tell 'em?

I've always assumed this type of question (Do you have any weapons in the car?) was a trick question, that if you answered yes, then it was in the fan.

Sorry about this, Westfield, just when you thought you had your answer...

 

[NavyLCDR]

NavyLT, if we inform LE that we are transporting, does LE have grounds for search? It just seems like that if we admit to having weapons anywhere in the vehicle, then we've opened the door...On another thread about notifying LE on a traffic stop that you're carrying (when the state doesn't require you to), it was noted that if we are legal, then there is no legal reason to inform them. Does not the same apply, here? If we're legally transporting, then why should we have to tell 'em?

I've always assumed this type of question (Do you have any weapons in the car?) was a trick question, that if you answered yes, then it was in the fan.

Sorry about this, Westfield, just when you thought you had your answer...

No, LEO does not have grounds for a search of the vehicle if you inform them of the presence of a gun. ESPECIALLY, if you state that you are legally transporting an unloaded firearm in accordance with 18 USC 926A. I would only inform LEO if they asked, or if I was in a state that required notification. I don't think any state requires notification of a firearm that is not actually being carried, but I might be wrong on that.

If you inform LEO of the unloaded firearm, say in the trunk, during a traffic stop which is actually based on an infraction, they can ask you to step out of the vehicle and frisk your person for the presence of weapons for officer safety. When you step out of the vehicle, as shown on the video, it is a good idea to bring your keys, registration, license and insurance card with you and lock the doors behind you. That is clearly not giving consent to a voluntary search. After they frist you, that is the extent that they can search under the rules of Terry.

If they ask for consent to search the vehicle, do not give consent, regardless of what they threaten to do. If they say they have to secure the weapon inside the vehicle for officer safety, that is untrue. Terry only allows them to secure weapons readily accessible to the subject, not locked away.

 

[torontogunguy]

I'm new here so I apologize if this has been answered in the past but I could not find any reference to the question.
I have a Texas CCW...I am going to do a lot of travelling by car...I know I can't carry concealed in states like New Jersey, New York and CT. Can I travel with my handgun across these states if it is locked away maybe even disassembled?
I tried calling one state PD and they were less than friendly...Any wisdom would be helpful..
Thanks

Federal Law is grey on the matter but supposedly permits one to travel through states where they are not 'licensed' to possess a firearm or handgun as the case may be simply by unloading and locking it in the trunk. For my part, I avoid certain states and if stopped do not permit inspection of my vehicle without warrant. In terms of transport through those states where I am not licensed, believe it or not, I have purchased two inexpensive Harbour Freight safes (small) and bolted them down in the back of my Ford Flex. One for the gun; the other for the ammo. If I perceive the state to be merely one that I am unlicensed in I simply unload the gun, removing the magazine and unloading the magazine and put the gun into one safe and the ammo into the other. You can't get much tighter than that. If I perceive the state to be CWP unfriendly, like NJ for example, I do the same thing, but also whip off the slide from the lower AND put a trigger lock onto the lower. Now that is truly anal. I also plan my trip so as to NOT stop overnight in those states if at all possible. I have been stopped and I have declared that I was in possession of a firearm at the border and explained how it was being stored in transport... they asked to see the safes and never asked for them to be opened. I guess they figured anyone going to that much trouble to comply wasn't worth the effort cuz they'd be laughed out of the courtroom.

Your absolute best bet is to simply not cross any states that you are not licensed in. Your best bet is also to find out for yourself on the state website about things like reciprocity, no carry zones, etc. AND google your route to make sure you dont happen to cross state lines accidentally while driving the interstate; which happens more than you might think.

And remember, you do NOT have to give permission for LE to search your vehicle. They need good cause to search in the absence of a warrant (which requires good cause anyway). Of course, they can always say that you looked like the fellow that just held up the 7-11 locally but I expect that might not stand up in court these days.

Personally? I simply do not include any states where my permits are unrecognized in my travel plans or in my route. No worries. And if I do happen to cross into one, see the above reference to the HF safes (don't forget the backup keys as the batteries go dead at the worst possible times).

Travel safely.

 

[Daugherty16]

Got to know your laws...

Unless and until we get national reciprocity for CCW, you HAVE to KNOW your laws. This is so far a pretty good collection of advice and all, from folks knowledgeable and experienced. But one rule to always remember is that ignorance of a law is never a successful defense.

I have a CT resident, and a NH non-resident, which covers me for 25 states - according to the map from this site. But i would never carry in another state without first reading it's laws regarding concealed carry, lethal force, and reciprocity. A mistake would just be too costly.

 

[LVLouisCyphre]

While I do lock horns with NavyLT on some issues. I am not on this one. However, NavyLT should know what navy stands for; never again volunteer yourself. :sarcastic: This includes information to LEOs.

I would add to the scenario of being pulled over which has been covered. If you are not endorsed, licensed or permitted to carry in the State you're stopped in, I would not volunteer I have any firearms in the vehicle even under the protection of Link Removed. In States such as CA, IL, MA, NJ and NY(C), I would simply tell the LEO I have no illegal items in the vehicle. They then have the burden of proof to get a search warrant. I do know that in those rabid anti States they at the minimum confiscate your firearms. Their (in)judicial system will then run you down financially.

 

[NavyLCDR]

1. However, NavyLT should know what navy stands for; never again volunteer yourself.

2. I would simply tell the LEO I have no illegal items in the vehicle.

1. I started out in the US Army - Uncle Sam Ain't Released Me Yet.

2. I LIKE that answer!

You know in Washington State, both the WA State Ferry System and the Capitol grounds prohibit the carry of illegal firearms on board! WA State ferries have a sign listing prohibiting items and "Illegal weapons and firearms" is on the list. Go figure, I was really hoping to be able to legally take my illegal firearms with me, darn it!

 

[torontogunguy]

While I do lock horns with NavyLT on some issues. I am not on this one. However, NavyLT should know what navy stands for; never again volunteer yourself. :sarcastic: This includes information to LEOs.

I would add to the scenario of being pulled over which has been covered. If you are not endorsed, licensed or permitted to carry in the State you're stopped in, I would not volunteer I have any firearms in the vehicle even under the protection of Link Removed. In States such as CA, IL, MA, NJ and NY(C), I would simply tell the LEO I have no illegal items in the vehicle. They then have the burden of proof to get a search warrant. I do know that in those rabid anti States they at the minimum confiscate your firearms. Their (in)judicial system will then run you down financially.

Well said and an oversight in my diatribe. You have hit the nail right smack on the head. MOST importantly is make sure that you have your handguns stored while in transit to the letter of the law and take into consideration local law and custom/reputation as well. I, for one, will not drive through New Jersey with a firearm stored in a SAFE in the back of my vehicle... even with federal pre-emption permitting me to do so. I simply do not want the hassle. I have never had a problem in NY state and we pretty much travel through NY state and since we live most of the year just to the north of the 49th. we are, in essence, stopped, questioned and searched every time we cross... never a problem. Not even a hint of a problem. But having said that, I would not drive through or anywhere near NY city (home of my birth) while transporting, even with federal pre-emption allowing me to do so, even with a letter from the NY state police allowing me to do so, even with a whack of LEO's in my address book, etc. Just not worth the hassle. And NJ? You want to make sure a round has not rolled into the spare tire well by accident - being caught with a hollowpoint round of any kind is a felony in NJ. Baaaaad news. And they have no sense of humour, especially in the north. On the other hand, I have a permit to carry in PA and I DO carry while driving through Phily or visiting family in Phily (I'd rather take the chance with Phily's whacko local laws and customs). When the whole family carries in Phily I figure that there's a message there somewhere. Not that I have ever had a problem. I'm the guy who had the problem with a whacko and a revolver in my nose at the home of Mickey, Orlando, where I cannot carry (yet). Working on that.

 

[keith4298]

I live in NJ (and no, my wife won't let me move) and had a question about when I travel. NJ has a rule that you can't make any detours with your weapon in your car - only straight to the range/competition/etc... and back. If I go to PA and return to NJ, am I covered under Federal Law (which doesn't have the no detour provisions) or am I back under NJ law?

 

[kengrubb]

You know in Washington State, both the WA State Ferry System and the Capitol grounds prohibit the carry of illegal firearms on board! WA State ferries have a sign listing prohibiting items and "Illegal weapons and firearms" is on the list.

I think the Sounder trains/buses/light rail and even some city parks try to play that game.

 

[kengrubb]

I have a Texas CCW...I am going to do a lot of travelling by car...I know I can't carry concealed in states like New Jersey, New York and CT.

Actually, as a non resident, you can get a CT permit to carry a gun. Apply directly to the State Police. I believe the whole thing is still entirely a mail order process.

 

[nogods]

18 USC 926A, Firearms Owners Protection Act (FOPA):
Link Removed

from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm

Does that language require that you be traveling from point A to Point B and be permitted to lawfully possess and carry the firearm in both Point A and Point B and that they be different states?

For example, say you are licensed to carry in Pennsylvania and you are going to Vermont (where you can carry without a permit) on vacation and driving thrugh New York. It seems that is exactly the situation the law describes.

But what if you are going from PA to NY and then back to PA. Can you argue that PA is point A and PA is also point B?

 

[kengrubb]

Does that language require that you be traveling from point A to Point B and be permitted to lawfully possess and carry the firearm in both Point A and Point B and that they be different states?

For example, say you are licensed to carry in Pennsylvania and you are going to Vermont (where you can carry without a permit) on vacation and driving thrugh New York. It seems that is exactly the situation the law describes.

But what if you are going from PA to NY and then back to PA. Can you argue that PA is point A and PA is also point B?

... if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

FOPA requires that the gun be unloaded and neither firearm nor ammunition be readily accessible.

 

[nogods]

... if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

FOPA requires that the gun be unloaded and neither firearm nor ammunition be readily accessible.

Yes, i understand that. My question had to do with the language about "from any place" and "to any place"

"from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm"

Can the from and to places both be PA?

 

[Sights on Target]

Yes, i understand that. My question had to do with the language about "from any place" and "to any place"

"from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm"

Can the from and to places both be PA?

But..if you are not licensed to carry in say NY and your trip goes from PA to NY to PA, you would not be allowed to make stops for other than basically gas.

If you were starting in say Western PA and heading to Eastern PA passing through a portion of NY, you should be ok, but that is not guaranteed.

 

[TnRebel]

I drive a Jeep Liberty and when going through a state that doesn't recognise my permit, I clear it and lock it and the mag in this, fastened to the seat frame.