Question about brandishing, and that critical moment...

[twotonevert]

Hello fellow Okies, I want to make sure I am perfectly clear before I starting carrying. I understand that we can face consequences for brandishing, and I hope to never have to pull my gun, but lets just say what if for a moment....
BG approaches with weapon in hand, clearly visible, at that point I am justified in pulling my gun. I have a case where I am being faced with deadly force, I pull my gun still with the thought I have to make a decision. At the point I pull my gun if BG continues to approach and I have clearly shown that I am armed and if I understand the law made an attmept to make that known verbally, I am clear to shoot. However, if BG stops then I will not shoot, that part is not hypothetical, if BG stops I will not fire. If BG has no visible weapon I will not draw because I am not facing deadly force. Its that point where you decide to shoot/not shoot that I am concerned with. Other than really pulling the gun from the holster to ward off someone mouthing you is clearly brandishing. I am just trying to make sure I understand the law. Any thoughts?

 

[jstreet75]

I would like to get a better understanding of brandishing also. If I could show someone I was armed and they would back off and I wouldn't have to shoot them that would be preferable.

 

[twotonevert]

Agreed. But if I understood in my class correctly and how the law is applied, I am not going to pull my gun to ward off a threat unless the BG is armed and I am facing deadly force. At that point I can match deadly force with force. However, if I pull and BG stops and runs off, then I will not shoot. I guess thinking through it, it does not matter in the respect that I will do what I have to do to defend myself. If I am facing deadly force, I need to respond appropriately. If I dont pull in this situation and become a victim, its a mute point. If I do pull and BG leaves, whats the chances of him reporting me with brandishing? I dont think I am explaining this correctly.

 

[rifleshooter474]

I was accused of pointing my handgun at this guy Steven Jay Sockey who was pissed off at my wife for not getting out of his truck path fast enough in front of the Golds Gym and followed me into the locker room and watched me undress and remove my handgun, he just saw it on a gym bench while I was changing.

Well the police were called and I was arrested.

I was not allowed to tell the officer anything except I did not draw or point my handgun at anyone.

I was booked into the Tulsa,Oklahoma jail I bonded out and found a Attorney. I was first just charged with a misdemeanor then the Tulsa County D.A. raised it to a felony.

I slowly went through the courts system making a trip to court house each Month for the first seven Months, was asked to take a plea many times but said no.

At the seventh Month the D.A. reduced the charge to again a misdemeanor, and again offered a plea that I rejected.

Three Months later we had a jury trial and the jury found me not guilty.

Point I am making is anyone who sees your handgun can accuse you of pointing it at them, and if they are POed at you they most likely will.

If like my case the Tulsa Police Officer Kristy Maxwell Allen just wanted to know if I had a handgun and where it was nothing else, there were no other witness's but just on his word I was arrested and taken to jail.

I was found not guilty but the Attorney cost me $1,500 and I lost a lot of work and sleep for almost a year.

So take my advice if you live in Tulsa Oklahoma be really careful who sees your handgun,and if you do have to draw it be ready to start shooting.

 

[tuts40]

I was taught to not draw unless my life or my loved one's life is threatened. Then, the last half of the draw stroke includes steadily increasing pressure on the trigger until the sight picture is center mass as the trigger breaks (simultaneous trigger break and sight picture, no "aiming"). This has been practiced in class, shoot houses, during dry practice and at the range. All told likely many thousands of times...

So, that little boring story leads me to the idea that if I draw I will shoot, I truly believe that. I will not put my hand on my gun unless I percieve a deadly threat. But that's me. There are those who's opinion on the matter will be different. Dats awlrite.

What does that mean regarding my thoughts on brandishing a gun? Don't, like "rifleshooter474" says. At the gym i was very careful to hide the gun with a towel or something while turned away or I'd go into a toilet stall and put the gun into a small bag I'd carry with me before putting it in the locker. Paranoid? Time consuming? Well, read the post above!

BTW, for those who find it exciting to 'accidentally' expose your gun, you know, 'cause you're a bad-a$$ dude and all, read the post above!

It's a bummer, rifleshooter474, that you went through that but maybe your experience can help a "young'n" here.

 

[tuts40]

Agreed. But if I understood in my class correctly and how the law is applied, I am not going to pull my gun to ward off a threat unless the BG is armed and I am facing deadly force. At that point I can match deadly force with force. However, if I pull and BG stops and runs off, then I will not shoot. I guess thinking through it, it does not matter in the respect that I will do what I have to do to defend myself. If I am facing deadly force, I need to respond appropriately. If I dont pull in this situation and become a victim, its a mute point. If I do pull and BG leaves, whats the chances of him reporting me with brandishing? I dont think I am explaining this correctly.

You explained it just fine, and many will agree with you.

 

[NavyLCDR]

If you ever have to draw your gun, always be the FIRST one to call the police. YOU want to be the one to report that you drew your gun in self-defense, rather than someone else reporting that you drew your gun for the purpose of intimidation.

 

[rifleshooter474]

I was taught to not draw unless my life or my loved one's life is threatened. Then, the last half of the draw stroke includes steadily increasing pressure on the trigger until the sight picture is center mass as the trigger breaks (simultaneous trigger break and sight picture, no "aiming"). This has been practiced in class, shoot houses, during dry practice and at the range. All told likely many thousands of times...

So, that little boring story leads me to the idea that if I draw I will shoot, I truly believe that. I will not put my hand on my gun unless I percieve a deadly threat. But that's me. There are those who's opinion on the matter will be different. Dats awlrite.

What does that mean regarding my thoughts on brandishing a gun? Don't, like "rifleshooter474" says. At the gym i was very careful to hide the gun with a towel or something while turned away or I'd go into a toilet stall and put the gun into a small bag I'd carry with me before putting it in the locker. Paranoid? Time consuming? Well, read the post above!

BTW, for those who find it exciting to 'accidentally' expose your gun, you know, 'cause you're a bad-a$$ dude and all, read the post above!

It's a bummer, rifleshooter474, that you went through that but maybe your experience can help a "young'n" here.

I hope it will help others as it was a real hell of a deal for myself and my wife, I might add we are now taking Steven Jay Sockey to court and trying to recover some of our lost money.
But if we don't recover a dime I want him to have to defend himself.

My Attorney told me he told the Tulsa D.A. he wanted me to lose my carry permit so I am thinking he was anti-firearm all along.

 

[Firefighterchen]

My advice, watch some videos on actual assault/encounters. While brandishing has stopped crimes, its risky due to not knowing the intent of the other party. What if they weren't a bad guy, and it was a shiny cell phone in their hand, not a knife? There are an infinite possibilities in life...to give one example and then train with that reason alone is too narrow minded. You should train with the overall picture in mind. What method will help defend your life 95% of the time? I do not believe brandishing to be the answer. Once you feel you can defend yourself 95% of the time, train for those 5% rare situations you can think of.

To answer your specific example given, a bad guy approaches me with a visible weapon (100% sure it is a weapon). I have made my choice in training, this guy has made a mistake, and its too late for him. I draw and fire to stop the threat. It doesn't matter how the threat is stopped (he could drop to the ground, he could start running away, he can keep pursuing me in which case I fire more round), as long as it is stopped. If he starts running away, I holster my weapon, find safety, call 911. If he drops to the ground incapacitated, I holster my weapon, find safety, and call 911. I do not believe you need to verbally tell them for it to be a self defense shooting, chances are you wont have time anyways.

Another part to your post, i do not believe its possible to tell if an attacker is armed or not. They could have a blade in their hand hidden, or a weapon of some kind behind them. Remember, they use surprise as their offensive tactic. Anyone that is threatening, weapon or not, especially within 30' is a danger to your life. Will you have that 30'...probably not...

This is just my opinion, and the way I will deal with that critical moment. I would think others would have chimed in...but I guess this thread was overlooked.

on second thought.....youtube Condition Butterscotch...that's probably the best way to defend oneself. Just slap them in the face and say "I don't know you, that's not your purse."...then spit on them and say "I have STD's"...they've done studies, you know. 60% of the time, it works every time.

 

[rchance]

I was accused of pointing my handgun at this guy Steven Jay Sockey who was pissed off at my wife for not getting out of his truck path fast enough in front of the Golds Gym and followed me into the locker room and watched me undress and remove my handgun, he just saw it on a gym bench while I was changing.

Well the police were called and I was arrested.

I was not allowed to tell the officer anything except I did not draw or point my handgun at anyone.

I was booked into the Tulsa,Oklahoma jail I bonded out and found a Attorney. I was first just charged with a misdemeanor then the Tulsa County D.A. raised it to a felony.

I slowly went through the courts system making a trip to court house each Month for the first seven Months, was asked to take a plea many times but said no.

At the seventh Month the D.A. reduced the charge to again a misdemeanor, and again offered a plea that I rejected.

Three Months later we had a jury trial and the jury found me not guilty.

Point I am making is anyone who sees your handgun can accuse you of pointing it at them, and if they are POed at you they most likely will.

If like my case the Tulsa Police Officer Kristy Maxwell Allen just wanted to know if I had a handgun and where it was nothing else, there were no other witness's but just on his word I was arrested and taken to jail.

I was found not guilty but the Attorney cost me $1,500 and I lost a lot of work and sleep for almost a year.

So take my advice if you live in Tulsa Oklahoma be really careful who sees your handgun,and if you do have to draw it be ready to start shooting.

Anyway you could've filed a civil suite against the guy to get your attorney fee back? I get tired if reading stuff like this! Why didn't the officer get both sides of the story then make a decision. It sounds like your better off not carrying in Oklahoma to me.

 

[twotonevert]

Thanks for the discussion guys. Very insightful. On a local board I am on, it was calculated that by the number, there are only 1.5% of total populus that carries concealed. I do my best to look for others and see if I can spot concealed weapons, but have yet to do so.

 

[Cotillion]

Here's a scenario that has me bothered as its the most likely scenario imo. What do you do with MULTIPLE bad guys who are unarmed? Do you have to take blows before drawing? I've been in a couple situations where groups of people Target me for any reason they can find, obviously looking for trouble and speedwalking away always prevailed but I've always wondered what if? I'm a big guy and 1on1 unarmed I would never draw unless somehow I'd lost and my head was getting stomped or something of that nature but multiple attackers, weapons or no can lead to death very easily. I've seen a single punch turn someone into mush. Can anyone clarify what they would do in a 3+ ( maybe 2 depending on size ) scenario?

 

[50SR9]

Cotillion, I am not a little guy either, not an intimidating figure tho. I am 6' 3" at about 200 or so. As you say, one on one I wouldn't draw unless the other drew a weapon as such. If I was about to be attacked by two or more, screw it...I am drawing.

I have carried for almost a year now. Have been stopped by LEO's on two different occasions with absolutely no problems. Brandishing is a grey area. I feel the best thing you can do is use your judgement. If you are in a life threatening situation, draw. "Judged by twelve or carried by six" Granted, you may be in heap of trouble for it, but you may save your life. As it was stated, if you do draw, be the first to make "the call" and make it clear what is going on. Sure makes the self defense insurance look better doesn't it.

 

[pat3332]

Sorry for coming in a little late, but this is something I've thought a lot about without coming to any decisions.

Sometimes I wonder if other things can make a difference. I'm 66 years old, 5'9, 155 pounds. I'm no longer as strong, or as coordinated as I use to be and my joints now hurt to much to out run anyone. Someone younger, 6' + and around 200 pounds is probably going to put me in the hospital, or kill me without needing to use a weapon. I would have no chance against several such individuals and even worse to me, I would also be unable to protect my wife.

I always try to be aware of my surroundings and as much as possible we are careful about where we go. Unfortunately, we like to eat out occasionally and some of our favorite restaurants are not in the best neighborhoods. For the most part, I have been able to avoid any bad situations, but there have been two or three times when I couldn't avoid one, or more people who looked like they could be looking for trouble or muggers. So far, at the last minute, they have just smiled, said hi and kept on walking. I have also been approached at gas station/convenience stores by people wanting a hand out, or a ride. I just put my left hand up to keep them from getting any closer and keep telling them I can't help them until they get the hint and go away and haven't had to show my gun. Sometimes, just putting my hand in my pocket is all it takes.

So, after this rather lengthy explanation, I'm pretty sure most will answer to do whatever is necessary to survive and worry about the consequences later. If my wife was with me, I'm sure I would pull my gun and use it if necessary, but I still wonder what my rights would be if I were attacked by one or more younger, larger individuals, or groups who didn't have weapons. How would the law look at it?

Fortunately, I live in OKC and not Tulsa. The Tulsa prosecutors have almost always be anti gun and concealed carry, so I'd probably end up in prison if this happened there.