Possible Road Rage Incident

jethrodull

New member
So, I was on a business trip to Fl and, of course, did not have my EDC. (would love to hear how others take theirs with them on trips that require flying) Anyway, was out late one night and driving back to the hotel. Not much traffic on the road, 3, maybe 4 lanes wide. Coming up behind me, a pickup truck got pretty close, close enough to cause the headlights to bother me. I reached up to the rearview mirror to adjust so that it reduced the glare. The truck got closer, so close that I could not see the headlights in my mirror. As I often do when someone decides to tailgate me, I ignored them. But they kept it up. Clearly, they did not want to go around, since there was plenty of space on either side and no other traffic. Eventually, I picked up my cell phone and made it obvious that I was calling 911. The fact is, my cell battery was close to dead since it had been unplugged all day, and I wasn't calling 911. That didn't phase them a bit. So, I put on my hazard lights and began slowing down. Did not hit my breaks one time, just took my foot off the gas. Moved into the far right lane, they followed. Acted like I was going to take the exit (which I had no idea where it went, so wasn't going to take it) and swerved at the last minute back onto the highway. They continued to follow me. Finally, I saw a police officer on the other side of the highway having pulled someone over. I took the next exit and u-turned onto the ramp on the other side. When I got up next to the officer, I tooted the horn, rolled my window down and came to a stop next to him. He turned to me, I told him the guys behind me had been tailgaiting and following me for quite some time and I was feeling threatened. He asked me if it was the guys in the truck behind me, who were right there. I said yes. He told me "he didn't see it, so there was nothing he could do" I said, fine, I'll just wait here and pulled off the road in front of the driver the officer had pulled over. The truck tried to pull in behind me. From there, all I could hear was the officer asking the truck why they were tailgating me. Couldn't hear their response, but it might have been something like "he break checked me". Then the officer asked again, so why were you tailgating him. Couldn't hear anything, and the officer told me "you can go sir." I took off, got on the highway and floored it. Got about a mile or so up the road, didn't see them, and took the next exit to get back to my hotel. Wish I had my carry piece with me, but glad it worked out all right. Funny how the officer said there was nothing he could do, and wanted me to just go about my business with the BGs still right behind me.
J
 
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Sounds like you did good to me. I'm curious, though, as to what you would have done if you'd had your weapon with you?
 
(would love to hear how others take theirs with them on trips that require flying)

Unload gun and magazine. Put gun and magazine and factory box off ammo in a hard sided pistol case. Lock pistol case with standard non-TSA pad locks. Put pistol case in your luggage.

Go to airline check in counter and tell the baggage person you have an unloaded firearm in you checked baggage you wish to declare. Sign the tag they give you and put it in the suitcase near the gun case. Lock the suitcase with a TSA lock. Follow their directions to send you luggage to TSA for x-ray.

Pick up your suitcase containing the firearm at your destination off the carousel with all the other luggage.
 
Sounds like you handled it just fine. Now take Navy'a advice and travel with your gun next time, and bring your cell phone charger with you
 
While your experience was unfortunate, it did end well and that is a good thing. It also should have taught you two extremely valuable life lessons. The first is "it" can happen to you. Any time. Any place. The majority of people live their entire life convinced "it" always happens to someone else and are therefore unprepared. The second lesson is police have no legal duty or obligation to help any individual citizen. If you doubt my last statement, do your research. The results will shock you. Glad you are okay and will be prepared in the future.
 
I had a road rage incident that also thankfully ended well, but could have been otherwise. A guy in a little sports car kept cutting me off in my full size XTerra, which was pretty stupid to begin with, since if I'd hit him with it, it would have crushed both him and his go cart. But when we came to a stop light and he pulled right in front of me forcing me to brake hard, then started to get out and approach, i had my 2" .357 in my hand in my lap at the ready. I don't know if he saw it, saw my motions with it as I drew it from the seat to my lap, or he just got smarter at the last minute, but he turned and got back in his car, and drove off, not to be seen again. You don't want bad things to happen, but they do, and you have to be ready and hope it doesn't end up going there.
 
If I was carrying, I would have just pulled over to the side of the road and waited. If they would have stopped and got out of their truck, I would have made sure to see their hands to ensure they weren't armed. If they walked up to my vehicle, I would have unholstered and set it on my lap with one hand on it, leaving my window up. If they got to the window, I would ask if I can help them. If they were looking for directions, I would have helped. If they tried to get into my vehicle, they would have seen the business end of my Glock fast and furiously. At least if it was here in Louisiana.


Yeah, you might want to google Verne Smalley


To Jethro

The fact that the guy following you was was willing to stop and give his side of the story to the cops indicates to me that he felt 100% justified in what he did
 
I live in FLA and it pains me how dumb some of the drivers are. They get all bent out of shape at the least little thing and well you see the results in the above post. I had someone try to pull me over like he was a cop because he did not like my driving.
Easy enough...stand on the brakes watch him shoot ahead and hang a u-turn across the median. If he would have come after me after that it probably would not have ended well...
 
Just saying I would have pulled over to see if that person needed help or something. There would be no danger to me unless the person decided to break my window (which, as stated would have been up). And if he breaks my window, that's where the castle doctrine kicks in and I shoot to kill.

OK, you let us know how that works out for you
 
When we carry a firearm for self defense, we must always try our very best not to ever get confrontational...Here is an informative bit of advice on the subject of 'Road Rage' and the CHL Carrier;

"Over the last several years, experience has taught us that often all it takes to get arrested, and possibly charged with a crime, is the mere allegation from another driver that they believed someone might have had a firearm during a traffic altercation. There have been numerous occasions where our members have been involved in a traffic incident (i.e., both drivers flipping each other off), and the other driver (sometimes in fits of rage and paranoia) calls 911. This driver then proceeds to make vague allegations and speculation. For example: "He pointed something that looked like a gun!", "She put an object on the dashboard to intimidate me!", or "I think they may have a gun!" Upon listening to the actual 911 calls, these allegations can sometimes seem to be little more than mere conjecture by an irate motorist. To make matters worse, 911 operators often ask leading questions, possibly resulting in even more inaccuracies when the report is transmitted to the police (remember the information the police officer often has to initially work with on the scene can be inaccurate, incomplete, or just plain wrong). As a matter of standard procedure, the police will be dispatched. In our experience, if the police pull someone over under these circumstances and the driver does in fact have a legal firearm in their possession after this exchange of "roadway pleasantries," they will likely be arrested with little or no evidence. Why does this happen? That answer can be studied from many different angles, and is beyond the scope of this article, but rest assured that it is happening.
Therefore, our advice to our members who carry a firearm in their car is: always do it legally and don't let yourself get drawn into any form of a road rage incident no matter how minor. We have seen cases that were clearly incidents of people overreacting and calling 911. The other driver/caller may convey allegations that never could have physically occurred. But the falsity of these allegations can only be shown after an investigation, lots of grief, and involvement in the criminal justice system. These types of 911 calls can result in an arrest for what amounted to bad manners. However, it results in an innocent person getting thrown into the legal system. Frankly my fellow Texans, our legal system can be far from perfect and administered by people who sometimes do not possess the wisdom of Solomon.
So our message is simple: Don't allow yourself to get sucked into the legal system just because you got angry in traffic.
If you carry a gun, don't flip the bird! It can happen to you."
~Attorney M. Byington~
 
OK, you let us know how that works out for you

You mean they won't just take his word and will search the content of his smartphone because he's a suspect in a possible murder? They will say it was premeditated.

Fullyarmed, now you can never ever ever use deadly force while in your vehicle. Everything you write on the internet gets cached somewhere. In the interest of national security, of course.
 
Dcselby1 – good question. I am not sure but would have felt less defenseless.

NavyLCDR – thanks for that info. I’ll look into doing that next time.

Treo – I was dumbfounded at their persistence, given my complete lack of provocation. I have no reason to lie about my experience. His account may have differed from mine, but at no time did I “brake check” him or anything of the sort.

The_Outlaw – would you not give credit to the author of that piece? I am also a “member” and have received that newsletter.
 
I'm just being stupid.

Why yes, yes you are

As soon as I strap on a gun I give up the right to lose my temper. I give up the right to make smart aleck comments to passers by. I give up the right to do anything that may escalate any situation I’m in. Any altercation I’m in is a gun fight because there at least one gun involved, mine.
 
Agreed 100%. I guess in my post I was trying to convey I would have wanted to stop to see if that person needed help or knew me.

In all seriousness this is a Really Bad Idea. In a situation like this mobility is your best defense and stopping could be seen as an invitation to escalate the situation.

Smartest thing to do is get on the phone w/ the police immediately and ask them to talk you to the nearest police station or officer.
 
Yeah, you might want to google Verne Smalley


To Jethro

The fact that the guy following you was was willing to stop and give his side of the story to the cops indicates to me that he felt 100% justified in what he did
I did google Verne Smalley and found the following quite interesting:
Vern Smalley

October 25, 2006, 01:35 PM

Vern Smalley replies to fraudulent stories.

I found
this forum just a few days ago when I was web surfing, and was surprised to find
that a fraudulent story about me was posted by DevilDog on July 20, 2004. The
story was about how I allegedly had road rage and intentionally killed a
teenager with my handgun. I’d like to tell you what actually happened because
there are lessons in it for all of us. If you are going to travel with a firearm
readily accessible in your car or with you on your motorcycle or pack it
concealed, you would be wise to be aware of these lessons.

The following
is an actual, real-life story. There is no fiction here. You will not be able to
confirm it by going back to read news media coverage because everything
published was fabricated, concocted and invented by liars who make their wages
by writing stories that people want to hear about. People who lived in Colorado
Springs (or Colorado, for that matter) were saturated with disinformation
courtesy of the news media, hearsay and rumors, You can go back to my trial
transcripts that are recorded at the El Paso County Courthouse in Colorado
Springs, Colorado, but unfortunately they charge for access. Or you can read the
following and take it for what it’s worth.

On the morning of April 21,
1993 in Colorado Springs, I encountered a teenager who was racing his two
buddies to breakfast, each in their own car. Carmine Tagliere III was 17 years
old, had been banned from two Colorado Springs shopping malls for fist fighting,
had been suspended from high school for fist fighting, had a police record for
threatening another boy with a pistol, had a reputation at his high school as a
bully, had a community reputation for violence, and was then trying to force my
car off the road because I was in his way. I was a retired Air Force lieutenant
colonel and retired chief scientist in long-range space system planning. I had
an extensive array of top-level security clearances through the Department of
Defense as well as with a highly-classified office. I had been on an Air Force
pistol and rifle team, and was a life-time hunter. I had absolutely no criminal
record.
After his trying to force my car off the road and into a
thirty-foot-deep rock-walled canyon where I could have been killed, I regained
the lead on the highway. Thinking about how he tried to kill me by forcing my
car off the road, I decided to talk to him, not knowing who he was. I pointed to
the side of the road, stopped my car, rolled down my window and prepared to bawl
him out. When he exited his car, he ran toward mine with fists clenched. I
remained seated in my car, with my seat belt on. I immediately got out my loaded
.357-Magnum revolver (a SS Ruger Security-Six) which I kept legally concealed in
my glove compartment, placed it in my lap and prepared to use it if I saw any
sign of a weapon on him. I saw none.
Tagliere was 100% out of control with
rage. He shook as he screamed profanities at me through clenched teeth, spitting
through his teeth. I saw I needed to get out of there fast, and looked away as I
restarted my car. He stepped forward and, according to the testimonies of two
eye witnesses who were passing in a nearby truck, struck me in my left temple
four or five times, walked away from my car a few steps, then returned and,
putting the upper half of his body inside my car, started hitting again. I was
hit a total of five or six times in my left temple, according to their account.
His first blow to my left temple was a knock-out blow that broke my glasses. One
of the eye witnesses saw my head recoiling from the blows as he did his best to
kill me. A photograph later released by his parents showed him as a wrestler in
high school, wearing a leather head guard, so I am quite positive he knew the
dangers of hitting someone in their temple. There is no doubt he did his best to
kill me twice that day.
Unfortunately for him, his first set of blows knocked
me over so I was leaning onto the passenger seat, and my revolver, which was
still in my lap, was aimed at my open car window. When he came back and stuck
his upper body into my car window, he struck me once again in my brain. This
time he caused what was technically known as an “interlimb-interaction,” and the
theory is that entire right side of my body involuntarily convulsed. I was
unconscious, but my right hand fired my revolver double action. Actually, I have
no knowledge of what happened, but this is what we think happened.
The
bullet did not “blow his heart away,” as falsely claimed by the news media. The
bullet hit him about 4" above and to the left of his heart, blew away his
subclavian artery, broke two ribs and punctured the upper lobe of his left lung.
He bled directly from the artery into his lung. He withdrew from my car window,
ran about 50 feet from my car and collapsed, blowing out blood all the
way.
One of his buddies, his best friend, invented innumerable “incorrect”
statements of what happened, and since he claimed to be an eye witness of the
whole event, I was immediately charged with Second Degree Murder without further
investigation. Actually, the NAACP was partly responsible for that, but that is
another story. All of what the best friend said was shown to be untruthful.
Contrary to his allegation, it was also proven in court by the police that he
changed the crime scene to mitigate the circumstances. Fortunately, honest
people saw Tagliere try to kill me and they testified as such.
After a very
short deliberation of a few hours, I was acquitted of Second Degree Murder and
Negligent Homicide in a criminal trial that attracted national media attention
in December, 1993. My jury called my attorney to the deliberation room after the
trial and told him that all twelve would have done what I did. It was a deadly
situation, and I behaved the best I knew how.
Throughout this experience, the
news media reporters invented, concocted and fabricated one fraudulent story
after another, all with the prompting of three men who had interest in providing
disinformation. There was not one single newspaper account that wasn’t
prejudiced against me. Since the shooting happened in a military town and I was
a retired officer, I was fair game for their fraudulent reporting. The accounts
I saw on TV were so totally skewed and erroneous, I couldn’t even recognize they
were talking about me except when my name was occasionally mentioned. Based on
their lies, I was the topic of two national TV reports and at least one book
that I know of. No doubt I was the topic of discussion with gun packers
everywhere, with numerous “uninformed citizens” voicing their outrage of my
alleged behavior in the Colorado Springs Gazette newspaper. That, of course,
increased circulation and made the publisher richer — at my
expense.
Following my acquittal of all charges, it was my turn. I wrote a
letter to the Gazette publisher acquainting him with facts that were part of
court record and how they differed with what was printed. Within one week the
editorial page editor of the Colorado Springs Gazette Newspaper, Dan Griswold,
published his notice of departing, and two weeks after that he was gone. The two
reporters that caused most of the problem, Kathryn Sosbe and Marcus Montoya,
departed soon thereafter, I hope in response to my letters to them and their
fellow reporters.
The chief prosecutor in the DA’s office was Bill
Aspinwall, a fellow who was successful in prosecuting over 20 cases, and who
routinely pulled dirty tricks in and out of the courtroom. Aspinwall liked
seeing his photo in the newspaper and being quoted by reporters, so he was quite
free with his condemnations. Since I was acquitted of all charges, my letter to
the Grievance Committee of the Colorado Supreme Court could not be interpreted
as sour grapes and ignored. When they notified Aspinwall that they were
considering investigating him, the DA told him that he would be fired if they
did investigate. They did so and Bill Aspinwall moved immediately to private
practice, thanks to yours truly. The era of disinformation to the news media
courtesy of Bill Aspinwall was over (fair comment).
I was also instrumental
in getting the life membership of Colorado chairman of the NAACP, James Tucker,
revoked. He got booted because the NAACP threatened a race riot in Colorado
Springs if I wasn’t charged with Second Degree Murder, as was one of their black
brothers about 13 months earlier.
The shooting incident attracted national
attention based on the distorted views of reporters who got to see their
creations on the front pages and above the fold line. Three reporters working
for U.S. News and World Report picked up the distortions and wrote an article
titled “Road Rage.” I wrote a stinging letter to the editor and he published a
letter written by my daughter the following September with his regrets for the
error (my letter was too insulting to be shared with the public). You can read
the article by Googling “Vern Smalley.” You might note that the article was
written by a lowlife named Warren Cohen (fair comment) who was fired by U.S.
News, and is published on his own website in retaliation for my getting him
fired.
About the time of my incident, a 15-year old was convicted for
murdering his two abusive parents, following which I was found innocent. This
upset Mary Ellen Johnson so much, she wrote a book titled “The Murder of Jacob”
which is still for sale on the internet. The paragraph posted on this forum by
DevilDog came from her book. It’s all a bunch of invented garbage, but after
living in Colorado Springs for 17 years and being married to a psychologist, I
am firmly convinced that Mary Ellen Johnson is ill (fair comment) with the same
malady that affects many Colorado Springs residents. It’s a cultural thing
wherein people look for ways to degrade others to make themselves look good. By
pushing others down, you are artificially elevated and feel better about
yourself. If you want to read more about this, look at the Diagnostic and
Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV). I now live in Montana and the
culture here is far different.
You might think that if the news media should
invent garbage about you in your shooting incident, all you have to do is sue
them. Wrong thinking. The news media is not responsible for presenting facts as
you and I would know them. They present “impressions.” I went to two Colorado
Springs lawyers to file suit against the liars in the news media, and each
lawyer wanted one million dollars up front. They both said that was how much
money it would take to win a law suit and prove that the “impressions” were
malicious. Unless you have that kind of money (I didn’t) all you can do is suck
it up.
Perhaps the biggest lesson I learned is that you might think at the
time that you are doing the right thing in using your handgun, as I did. But
things can go to hell in an instant, and you can’t set back the clock. Don’t
expect people to understand what actually happened. Nearly all people believe
what some scumbag reporter writes, and you are completely at their mercy.
Do
not fantasize about pulling out your weapon and blowing away the bad guy unless
your life is in immediate danger. If there is time and the situation warrants,
point your gun at the dirtbag and yell “Back off or I will kill you!” or
something like that. If it goes that far, you had better have solid proof that
your life was in danger, and no, your word is not good enough. If it winds up
with your word being against his in court, you will probably be charged with
Malicious Assault With a Weapon, or something similar.
If you are able to do
so, use your weapon as a club and strike your assailant on his head. Do it hard
and try to knock some sense into him. Remember that once you pull the trigger,
it’s a whole new world, one that you will not be able to control. You can
comfort yourself that you are still alive, but you want to be sure that you
aren’t behind bars. You’ll need plenty of evidence that you did the right thing.
I was lucky, and six eye-witnesses stepped forward and saw Tagliere try to kill
me those two times. You might not need six witnesses but you will definitely
need solid proof that will stand up in court.
Whatever you do, stay at the
scene and surrender yourself and your weapon as soon as the police arrive. You
should expect to be handcuffed and taken to a police station for questioning. I
was read my Miranda Rights and I waived them. I told the police everything I
could remember, in spite of my mild closed head injury. As a result, I had a
wonderful relationship with the police and sheriff’s department that continues
to this day. I had their fullest support, including their keeping me separate
from the criminals being detained (I never spent one second behind bars) and
defending me in court. Of course, lawyers tell you to not say anything unless
they are present. I didn’t believe it then and I don’t now. As a result, my
lawyer used the fact that I disclosed everything to the police as evidence that
I was a good person.

I hope the above helps all packers.

Vern
Smalley
 
You mean they won't just take his word and will search the content of his smartphone because he's a suspect in a possible murder? They will say it was premeditated.

Fullyarmed, now you can never ever ever use deadly force while in your vehicle. Everything you write on the internet gets cached somewhere. In the interest of national security, of course.
No, she's saying if he allows him to approach the window like that, he may never get the chance to exercise the castle doctrine. He could very easily be attacked and killed before his finger ever touched his gun. It never ceases to amaze me that people who have seen the Tueller drill and understand the 21 foot rule, still seem to think it's safe to allow a possible assailant to approach their car window. Your gun is useless if you never get the chance to use it, castle doctrine or no castle doctrine.
 
I did google Verne Smalley and found the following quite interesting:

If you found that

Road Rage and Handguns - THR.

May I assume you also found this?

Treo said:
And I have mine, I do. The biggest "fishy" thing I find is that the incident was ( or could have been)done and over when Taligre cut Mr. Smalley off on the road. Instead, Mr. Smalley chased him down on the hiway ( and if Taligre was "racing W/ his buddies" how fast do you think Mr.Smalley had to go to "regain the lead"?) Pulled him over and got ready to "bawl him out" , and ended up shooting the kid when things went south.

Was Mr. Smalley guilty of murder? That question was settled in a court of law for all time.

Was Mr. Smalley guilty of criminal stupidity?

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

But here's a question for you if Mr. Smalley had said, right after Taligre blew him off the road, "Man,what an idiot." and gone about his business, would we be having this discussion now?
 

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