Police being tested.

dogshawred

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Buckeye Firearms Association | Defending Your Firearm Rights

From the article:
Advocates of "open carry" of weapons are testing police on their knowledge of state laws and then posting the results on the internet.
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The most recent case involved a Tipp City man, Roy Call, who walked into a Speedway gas station at 3201 Valley Pike in Riverside at 4:30 am on August 28, 2012 with a gun holstered on his hip in full view by anyone in the store. A customer alerted a police officer who happened to be in the store parking lot. When the officer asked Call who he was and what he was doing, Call said he was exercising his Second Amendment rights and initially declined to identify himself. The officer arrested Call and charged him with obstructing official business.
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Call eventually produced identification and was released. Later, the charge against him was dropped but Call filed a lawsuit in federal court alleging his rights were violated and demanded $3.6 million.
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Headline: Advocates put police, gun laws to the test

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In the July 3, 2012 Cincinnati Police Department Staff Notes, CPD Chief James E. Craig took the opportunity to inform his department on the law regarding open carry of a firearm in Ohio. The chief paid particular attention to the issue at question in this case - when do officers have a right to stop a person who is open carrying?
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From the document: Link Removed
3. LAW DEPARTMENT MEMO ON OPEN CARRY OF A FIREARM IN OHIO
Ohio law permits the open carry of a firearm with few exceptions. Citizens may openly carry firearms in public places unless there is a specific prohibition against carrying a firearm in that place (police station, school safety zone, courthouse, etc.).
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Since Cleveland v. State of Ohio, 2010-Ohio-6318, regulation of the "ownership, possession, purchase, other acquisition, transport, storage, carrying, sale, or other transfer of firearms, their components, and their ammunition" is only done by state and federal law. Local municipal laws may only regulate the discharge of firearms. Therefore, officers should not charge individuals with violations of the Cincinnati Municipal Code unless the ordinance deals with the discharge of a firearm.
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Many people worry when they see someone openly carrying a gun. Officers can expect to receive calls when this happens. But, openly carrying a firearm, by itself, is not illegal. The fact that someone has called 911 or flagged down an officer about seeing someone with a gun in public is probably not enough to support an investigative detention. In such situations, an officer must observe the subject and evaluate the totality of circumstances to determine whether reasonable suspicion exists to justify detaining the individual. If the individual is doing nothing else that arouses suspicion, simply wearing a gun will not justify a detention.
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It is important to note, open carry by itself also would not support a charge of Disorderly Conduct or Inducing Panic. There must be additional facts to support these offenses. If someone is lawfully carrying a firearm—and doing nothing else— the fact that it causes alarm to others does not support a charge.
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Equally important, before you charge someone with a violation of Ohio Revised Code (ORC) 2921.29, Failure to Disclose Personal Information (also referred to as the "Stop and I.D." law), you first must have reasonable suspicion that person has, is, or is about to commit a criminal offense. The "Stop and I.D." law does not apply unless you already have a valid investigative detention of the person – and open carry by itself is not enough. Citizens may ignore your request for information during a consensual encounter, so you may only charge a citizen with a violation of ORC 2921.29 when they are legally detained.
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Private businesses or property owners may prohibit all firearms on their property. They may post signs prohibiting firearms or they may order a person to leave for such behavior. Criminal Trespass is the appropriate charge if a person is on private property in violation of such a prohibition
 
I open carry here in Clovis NM. about 50% of the time, and have no issues with any of the businesses I use. Have not been hassled by the LEOs yet, but sure it will come one day.
 
Although I'm a strong proponent of open and concealed carry, I try to respect the "lil' ol' lady" that gets scared out of her wits when I've got my carry gun on my hip. Since we can carry both CC and open here in VT, I prefer CC, tho if open as in the summer, I like to wear a long shirt or whatever just so 'grandma' doesn't have a heart attack. I carry for protection, not for a display of my rights.
YMMV
 
Texas managed to screw the honest gun folks again no open carry will pass. Love the state but the traitors have begun to take over, carry open all the time in AZ their LEO's know the law, never had any problems. 2nd home.
 
Seems to me that the state that allow open carry need to better educate the public through radio, TV, newspaper & bus placard advertising that open carry is perfectly legal, and unless the person is pointing at someone the law has not been broken. Carry NM I doubt if you will ever be hassled by an LEO for open carry in NM (unless it's a poorly educated & trained rookie) because it has always been legal in NM. Same wiith AZ. I used to live there and only once did my open carry upset anyone, namely an elderly couple from NJ who ran out of gas at the foot of the Superstition Mtns. The woman acted like an idiot screaming, "He's got a gun! He's got a gun!" I told her that AZ was not NJ and many people carried guns & the ones she should fear were the ones that carried them concealed. CC was not legal back in '78 in Az.

I gave them some water from my canteen and went and got them some gas and brought it back to them. Bet she never panicked again when she saw someone in AZ carriying a gun.
 
Although I'm a strong proponent of open and concealed carry, I try to respect the "lil' ol' lady" that gets scared out of her wits when I've got my carry gun on my hip. Since we can carry both CC and open here in VT, I prefer CC, tho if open as in the summer, I like to wear a long shirt or whatever just so 'grandma' doesn't have a heart attack. I carry for protection, not for a display of my rights.
YMMV
There isn't any need for laws when we allow our own fear of offending someone with the sight of a gun to stop us from exercising the right to openly bear arms in a legal manner because our own fear stopped us just as effectively as any law could.

If we are afraid our rights might offend then we are allowing other people to control our behavior and to limit our rights just because we are afraid we might ... offend... them.
 
Seems to me that the state that allow open carry need to better educate the public through radio, TV, newspaper & bus placard advertising that open carry is perfectly legal, and unless the person is pointing at someone the law has not been broken. Carry NM I doubt if you will ever be hassled by an LEO for open carry in NM (unless it's a poorly educated & trained rookie) because it has always been legal in NM. Same wiith AZ. I used to live there and only once did my open carry upset anyone, namely an elderly couple from NJ who ran out of gas at the foot of the Superstition Mtns. The woman acted like an idiot screaming, "He's got a gun! He's got a gun!" I told her that AZ was not NJ and many people carried guns & the ones she should fear were the ones that carried them concealed. CC was not legal back in '78 in Az.

I gave them some water from my canteen and went and got them some gas and brought it back to them. Bet she never panicked again when she saw someone in AZ carriying a gun.

That was very considerate of you and most likely made a good impression on her. Someone she thought was a bad guy helped her out after she behaved badly.

That's the kind of public relations we should all be doing. Changing the minds and hearts of the uninformed about people who legally carry.

Good on you Cowboy!
 
For which side of the argument is this in BC?
My father taught me the biggest trouble-maker I'll ever know is the guy watching me shave every morning. Over a lifetime he'll cause me more aggravation than anyone else. But I can control his actions. Thus I wouldn't test anyone. No LEO, no judge. There are azzhats in every profession. Bad doctors, lawyers, accountants and... LEO's. If I have to bang every azzhat, I'll spend my life doing it.
 
For which side of the argument is this in BC?
My father taught me the biggest trouble-maker I'll ever know is the guy watching me shave every morning. Over a lifetime he'll cause me more aggravation than anyone else. But I can control his actions. Thus I wouldn't test anyone. No LEO, no judge. There are azzhats in every profession. Bad doctors, lawyers, accountants and... LEO's. If I have to bang every azzhat, I'll spend my life doing it.

So if I understand your post correctly, you're willing to just play along with every violation of your rights by a LEO just because he might be an "azzhat" and you don't want to test him? The first subject of this article, wasn't being a trouble maker, nor was he testing anybody. He was simply exercising his constitutional rights, and refused to be a victim of oppression by some uneducated "azzhat" LEO. Again, if I understood your post correctly (apologies if I didn't), the difference between you and the subject in the article is that he has balls.
 
There are jerks, a$$holes, and punks. There are also kind, respectful, and mature individuals. Ask yourself when you carry, which type of person you want to project to the public.

I swear, some us are our own worst enemies. We go out in public and try to pick a fight. How many times have we seen videos trying to bait a cop or forums where someone says they "freaked out" someone by open carrying.

*shrugs* If you project a kind and respectful tone when you are out and about, it's really hard to "freak" people out with or without a firearm on your hip. Can it happen, I suppose, but I personally have never met anyone in my life that has caused someone to panic and either call 911 or hunt a LEO because they were open carrying. If that should happen, I would question the demeanor of the person carrying as well.
 
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On the subject of "testing" the cops.....

Police "test" the public with bait cars and fake prostitutes as a way of catching those citizens who would break the law and many folks think that is admirable.

Yet, when the public "tests" the cops with legal open carry as a way of catching those cops who would break the law some folks think that is just terrible.

What is terrible is that there are folks who think it is Ok for the cops to "test" ordinary people but it is terrible for ordinary people to "test" the cops.

The truth of the matter is quite simple. A law abiding man will not steal a car or pick up a prostitute and a law abiding cop will not hassle a citizen who is not breaking any laws. So the only one who fails the "test", cop or citizen, is a person who breaks the law.

And those who break the law are criminals.... regardless of what clothes they wear.
 
On the subject of "testing" the cops.....

Police "test" the public with bait cars and fake prostitutes as a way of catching those citizens who would break the law and many folks think that is admirable.

Yet, when the public "tests" the cops with legal open carry as a way of catching those cops who would break the law some folks think that is just terrible.

What is terrible is that there are folks who think it is Ok for the cops to "test" ordinary people but it is terrible for ordinary people to "test" the cops.

The truth of the matter is quite simple. A law abiding man will not steal a car or pick up a prostitute and a law abiding cop will not hassle a citizen who is not breaking any laws. So the only one who fails the "test", cop or citizen, is a person who breaks the law.

And those who break the law are criminals.... regardless of what clothes they wear.

Good point. The difference is, their job is to enforce the law, hence the name law enforcement officer. Yours (proverbial) is not. However, exercising your rights by open carrying while going about your daily business and then suing the hell out of the idiot department that arrested you on trumped up charges isn't testing the police. It's just you pursuing liberty and justice in this supposedly free country.

On the other hand, walking back and forth on a main thoroughfare with a film crew and a gun on your hip, waiting for somebody to call the police, is different. You're not an IA investigator and you're not doing anything to further 2A rights, so stop it! (Again not speaking directly to you.)
 
We have to remember that LEOs are doing their job to the best of their ability. In some cases the LEO happens to do a horrible job and unfortunately that is the best they can do. It could be a training issue as is definitely the case in Cincinnati, hence Chief Craig's memo to officers. It could also be the officer is simply an idiot; there are stupid people in every profession.

As citizens it is our duty just as much as the LEOs to uphold the law. The difference is we have a personal responsibility to uphold the law in regards to our own actions, not enforce the law as it pertains to the actions of others. Launching our own "sting operations" to catch the police violating your rights is irresponsible. It draws attention to you which takes time away from the officer who may be needed elsewhere.
 
Even thou provoking is one way to educate the public about Open Carry, I think it can be done in another way that educates the population.

Unfortunately the local or state law enforcement isn't going to do it for us. It'll have to be us as the NRA, SAF and other large gun clubs are too busy fighting the government trying to keep our 2A rights. It's going to have to be us on a grassroots basis to get the word out to the low information public.

So when y'all get the stupid questions about your sidearm, spend a few minutes and educate a non carrier. It'll pay off down the line!
 
Good point. The difference is, their job is to enforce the law, hence the name law enforcement officer. Yours (proverbial) is not. However, exercising your rights by open carrying while going about your daily business and then suing the hell out of the idiot department that arrested you on trumped up charges isn't testing the police. It's just you pursuing liberty and justice in this supposedly free country.

On the other hand, walking back and forth on a main thoroughfare with a film crew and a gun on your hip, waiting for somebody to call the police, is different. You're not an IA investigator and you're not doing anything to further 2A rights, so stop it! (Again not speaking directly to you.)
I understood your post to not be directed at me personally. Please understand my reply isn't directed at you personally either.. we are merely discussing.

Yes, it is the job of LE to enforce the law... and it is the job of us citizens to keep an eye on our government officials and employees. To think that the government/police are above the scrutiny of an ordinary citizen is to have an upside down perspective of who is supposed to be in charge in this country.

The thing is... until someone tests the waters concerning legal open carry in a State/area/place where the sight of a sidearm on anyone other than LE would be unusual actually is "testing" LE... and it is AFTER the police are tested/fail the test/are educated that it becomes possible for folks to wander around doing their normal everyday activities while open carrying.

There are two things about your statement I'd like to address...

walking back and forth on a main thoroughfare with a film crew and a gun on your hip, waiting for somebody to call the police, is different. You're not an IA investigator and you're not doing anything to further 2A rights, so stop it!

1. Most recordings of police misdeeds are legally taken with covert recording equipment (covert recording is legal under some conditions in some States-check your State's recording laws!)... there isn't a full on "film crew" present. Just like the police film with dash cams citizens also film with equipment that isn't a "film crew". And again, if the cops weren't breaking the law the recording would show that.

The old phrase that the cops tell us "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" could also be directed at the cops with "If you aren't breaking the law you have nothing to fear from a covert recording of your actions."

2. Now.. if no one has the balls to "bait" the cops by engaging in unusual, but legal!, actions while open carrying then who is going to cause the cops to become educated? How will anything change? Someone has to start the ball rolling and cause the police to learn that open carry is legal.... so other people eventually can just wander around doing ordinary stuff open carrying.

Also... when a very few folks here in Michigan started open carrying (even open carrying scary rifles! GASP!) and the police did their illegal detainment thing and were sued over it... and the media jumped on it hoping to sensationalize and demonize it...

.. the end result was the State police issued Legal Update #86

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf

to all police depts. in the State AND the negatively slanted media coverage actually ended up informing a vast majority of citizens in Michigan that not only was open carry legal but no permit was needed to do it. (Some restrictions apply... check the laws before doing it!!!)

In short... it was those who came before daring to "test" the police (and legally record the results followed by holding them accountable) that caused open carry to become accepted as legal by the police and by the populace.

I hope folks never ever stop legally testing the police because if "we the people" don't do it ... who will?

So, in my opinion, those legal open carriers (including those legally open carrying scary rifles) seen on utube being hassled by the police are not showing how silly or stupid the open carrier is... but are showing everyone how the police are breaking the law by hassling a citizen engaged in a legal activity.

After all... "If I'm doing nothing wrong I should not have to fear being hassled by the cops for doing............... nothing wrong."
 
Civil Disobedience Rising Across America as Citizens Fed up With Criminal Government

NaturalNews Network
NaturalNews.com
May 28th, 2013
Reader Views: 3,631

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Nearly everywhere you turn, crowds of angry Americans are gathering, no longer content to merely sit idly by and remain spectators to the cavalcade of injustices being perpetuated ad nauseum against We the People by criminal governments that have long since lost their legitimacy.
Run by an elitist ruling class, they prove daily that an elected body can trample rights the same as a sitting monarch or dictator.
The soft tyranny we endure now on a daily basis has turned scores of Americans into reluctant activists, no longer satisfied with participation in mundane “demonstrations” that prove and accomplish nothing.
Rising tide of anger
Some recent cases in point bear rise to this unrest, and if history is a guide, such occurrences will only become more frequent – and more violent – as our rights, traditions and heritage are trampled, disregarded and disrespected.
Take one case in New Jersey recently, where a state Senate panel on gun control cut off testimony on a bill – citing “procedure” – when citizens in attendance clearly had more they wanted to say, as evidenced by their requests to do so from the gallery. As seen in this video, a couple of individuals who attempted to speak were made to leave by a court police officer, but when one man – Frank Fiamingo, president of the New Jersey Second Amendment Society – had enough of the Senate panel’s dismissive attitude, he organized the dozens of attendees into reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, at which time the a) the Senate panel abandoned its attempts to have audience members thrown out; and b) mostly refused to stand during the recitation of the pledge (one senator finally stood towards the end of the pledge).
Here’s how it went down, according to one witness account:
“After a late start, and a “ten minute break” that lasted more than a half hour, the NJ Senate committee on gun control decides to cut off public comment on the proposed gun control bills at 4 o’clock. The chairman and most of the committee then refuse to honor the pledge of allegiance. This took place at the NJ Senate gun control hearings in Trenton on April 30, 2013. People in the audience were wearing NRA caps which I am sure was not lost on the Senate committee members. The officers from the court who were harassing the people who attended at the end of the clip looked from behind like jack booted Nazi enforcers.”
The anger in the room was palpable, as was the frustration.
Freedom going out of style?
At a separate protest, civil rights activist Adam Kokesh – who has pre-announced an armed civil disobedience march on Washington D.C. on July 4th – was violently dragged from a “Smoke Down Prohibition” protest in Philadelphia over the weekend of May 18. Though in this video Kokesh, who is being dragged away from the event by police, has his hands up and is clearly not resisting arrest, that was the ultimate charge leveled against him:
According to Adam Kokesh supporter “Brother Lucas,” Kokesh never even smoked pot during the protest, so his arrest is sending shockwaves across the liberty movement because it appears to be illegal and unjustified. The video seems to depict a lawless gang of badge-wearing thugs committing an act of kidnapping against someone merely exercising their free speech rights in a public forum.
What is interesting – even encouraging, if you are lover of liberty – was the reaction of the crowd to Kokesh’s detention. As you can see in the video, demonstrators followed police to a barricade they reinforced after taking Kokesh through it. The crowd openly challenged officers and was visibly angry.
These are scenes being repeated all around the country, and with increasing frequency, as more Americans tire of the soft tyranny being directed at them on a daily basis. Look for more unrest in the future.
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On the subject of "testing" the cops.....

Police "test" the public with bait cars and fake prostitutes as a way of catching those citizens who would break the law and many folks think that is admirable.

Yet, when the public "tests" the cops with legal open carry as a way of catching those cops who would break the law some folks think that is just terrible.

What is terrible is that there are folks who think it is Ok for the cops to "test" ordinary people but it is terrible for ordinary people to "test" the cops.

The truth of the matter is quite simple. A law abiding man will not steal a car or pick up a prostitute and a law abiding cop will not hassle a citizen who is not breaking any laws. So the only one who fails the "test", cop or citizen, is a person who breaks the law.

And those who break the law are criminals.... regardless of what clothes they wear.

Bikenut here's what my pappy always told me; Locks and Laws only keep honest people honest, everyone else will do what the dam well want too.
 

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