Pointless No Gun Signs - Can You Carry In Florida Airports?

[45fella]

Why does this portion exist?

provided that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, which firearm is encased for shipment for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft​

Reading the whole clause implies that cannot carry any firearms into the passenger accessible area of the airport unless they are prepared to be checked unloaded as baggage. The legislative intent is pretty obvious to me.

Does anyone have a copy of Link Removed and get his opinion on it? The Statute and DOACS site is pretty straight forward to me. Sterile area and terminal is the entire airport building.

I'm a corporate jet pilot, I take alot of trips where I just reposition a jet somewhere in the country or I take a jet somewhere where the passengers are staying for 10-14 days and the pilots get to fly home. Then we fly back to take the plane/passengers back home after their stay. I bring my gun always.

I can tell you this, I have transported my gun many times on the airlines. All I do is bring my gun to the check-in counter, in the case, and tell them I need to check it in with my checked luggage. Most of the time its my only piece of checked luggage because I know I'm going right home. It has to have a lock on it and be unloaded in the case, but the full clip can be in the case with the gun, thats it. One time they asked me to unlock the combination lock to see the gun inside the case, then I just locked it back up and they took it.

I also walk around the non-secure areas of the airport with my gun all the time. The only place I don't go, of course, is through security to go into the terminal.

The terminal is the part of the airport AFTER you have gone through security to the GATES.

 

[magicman007]

The terminal is the part of the airport AFTER you have gone through security to the GATES.

According to TSA and the management at Daytona Beach and Jacksonville airports, the trminal starts at the curb. Anywhere from the CURB of the drive up area all the way to the boarding areas, etc. is considered the terminal. They minced no words in telling me this and strongly suggested I NOT bring a loaded firearm into the building at all.

 

[tattedupboy]

Maybe this map from opencarry.org will help:

Link Removed

 

[LVLouisCyphre]

I also walk around the non-secure areas of the airport with my gun all the time. The only place I don't go, of course, is through security to go into the terminal.

The terminal is the part of the airport AFTER you have gone through security to the GATES.

It appears a well known Florida firearms attorney agrees with me and disagrees with you. You just have not been made yet. Once you are made there's a possibility you may not get your pilot's license renewed for a weapon violation as TSA background checks are required for those along with hazmat endorsements for CDLs.

 

[45fella]

According to TSA and the management at Daytona Beach and Jacksonville airports, the trminal starts at the curb. Anywhere from the CURB of the drive up area all the way to the boarding areas, etc. is considered the terminal. They minced no words in telling me this and strongly suggested I NOT bring a loaded firearm into the building at all.

You have to remember, TSA people think they're something that they are not. They're just baggage checkers, they're not lawyers or law enforcement. They know very little.

Like I said, I have walked my gun case right up to the counter tons of times to check it as checked bags when I travel. I think if the terminal started at the curb someone over the past 10 years would have said something to me. The law states "sterile areas" and those that require a person to go through security. An airport is nothing more than a mall with restaurants and stores. When you go through security you are in the terminal.

Transporting firearms on the airlines is 100% legal. They don't require you to stand in traffic out front and wait for someone to come outside to get your gun case from you.

Personally what I do is: I call and get a name of a ticket agent so I have a contact person when I arrive at the counter. So I can at least say I informed them I'm coming.

 

[45fella]

It appears a well known Florida firearms attorney agrees with me and disagrees with you. You just have not been made yet. Once you are made there's a possibility you may not get your pilot's license renewed for a weapon violation as TSA background checks are required for those along with hazmat endorsements for CDLs.

Lawyers are the last people I would ask for clarification. When I have a question about a firearm related issue, I email the FDLE and they get back to you in an emali with the proper interpretation. I will do that now with this issue and get back to you all in this thread. I'm almost certain I'm correct about carrying in the non-sterile areas though.

Also, pilots licenses are never renewed, they are granted for life. All that needs to be done to be able to fly is to keep yourself current on each aircraft category you fly. And TSA has zero authority to take a license from a pilot. The FAA can't even take your license away from you. The only way to lose a license is through a court proceeding with a federal judge after due process.

 

[KimberPB]

Lawyers are the last people I would ask for clarification. When I have a question about a firearm related issue, I email the FDLE and they get back to you in an emali with the proper interpretation. I will do that now with this issue and get back to you all in this thread. I'm almost certain I'm correct about carrying in the non-sterile areas though.

Also, pilots licenses are never renewed, they are granted for life. All that needs to be done to be able to fly is to keep yourself current on each aircraft category you fly. And TSA has zero authority to take a license from a pilot. The FAA can't even take your license away from you. The only way to lose a license is through a court proceeding with a federal judge after due process.

Thanks for your thoughts on this! Like you I had interpreted it as the passenger terminals and sterile areas were the part of the airport past the security check points. Gutmacher's reply to Luke still seemed kind of gray when he said "Most of the time." It'll be interesting to see what FDLE says. I think I'm going to email my instructor also and get his feed back.

I don't think anyone disagrees that it is legal to fly with your firearm. In the Florida state statute it actually has a clause saying it’s legal to carry an unloaded firearm in a locked case into the passenger terminal to check it onto a flight. I think the real question is if it is legal to carry a loaded firearm on your person while in, say, baggage claim.

 

[LVLouisCyphre]

Lawyers are the last people I would ask for clarification. When I have a question about a firearm related issue, I email the FDLE and they get back to you in an emali with the proper interpretation. I will do that now with this issue and get back to you all in this thread. I'm almost certain I'm correct about carrying in the non-sterile areas though.

Would you care to make a wager on it?

Also, pilots licenses are never renewed, they are granted for life. All that needs to be done to be able to fly is to keep yourself current on each aircraft category you fly. And TSA has zero authority to take a license from a pilot. The FAA can't even take your license away from you. The only way to lose a license is through a court proceeding with a federal judge after due process.

Are you sure about that? A lot of legislation has plowed through in to response to 9/11. See here and also Link Removed.

CDL holders with hazmat endorsements weren't required to get background checks now they do. I just let mine go because I never used it in the almost 20 years of having a CDL. I haven't driven a commercial vehicle i over 10 years, I just keep the license active since it's easier to just pay DMV when it's time to renew than it is to get it again should I need it. It wasn't worth the expense of maintaining the background check.

 

[45fella]

Would you care to make a wager on it?
Are you sure about that? A lot of legislation has plowed through in to response to 9/11. See here and also Link Removed.

CDL holders with hazmat endorsements weren't required to get background checks now they do. I just let mine go because I never used it in the almost 20 years of having a CDL. I haven't driven a commercial vehicle i over 10 years, I just keep the license active since it's easier to just pay DMV when it's time to renew than it is to get it again should I need it. It wasn't worth the expense of maintaining the background check.

NO, I don't want to bet money on it, like I said, I'm almost certain I can carry in the non-sterile areas. By law, I'm not 100% sure how it would be interpreted by the FDLE, and the FDLE is all that matters. A TSA worker is meaningless and the cops that walk the airports. All that matters is what FDLE says.

BUT......TSA is just another entity that is used to do research. If TSA or anyone, even your 90 year-old neighbor finds out that you were involved in terrorist activity 10 years ago, they will report that to the FAA or TSA I guess, and then the FAA will take the proper steps through Federal Courts to have your license revoked or suspended. TSA is powerless to do anything. Basically the law says that even AFTER you have a pilots license, if something is found out about you that took place in the past BEFORE you got your pilots license, that would have been a DISQUALIFYING issue to get the pilots license, they can then revoke your license. In addition to that happening, you will probably get charged with false information for not informing the FAA about that prior issue.

Here's what the FAA/TSA says in the links you provided:

FAA can suspend or revoke a pilot's certificate if TSA
finds that the person poses a security threat. In addition to the
required checks, FAA checks names appearing on government "no fly" and
terrorist watch lists against its list of certified pilots as well as
checks the names of new student pilots and foreign pilots against TSA-
managed watch lists.[Footnote 11]

And again, TSA can't do a damn thing. They are just the grunt force out there trying to help the FAA find problems in the security world. The FAA has to bring a case against a pilot. Its just like US Customs, they are the bottom of the barrel in all of law enforcement, but after 9/11 the FAA put some authority into their hands to HELP find problems and breaches in security. So since 9/11, we now have to deal with these cheesy cowboys when we fly in from outside the country. What a great experience they make things.

 

[45fella]

I don't think anyone disagrees that it is legal to fly with your firearm. In the Florida state statute it actually has a clause saying it’s legal to carry an unloaded firearm in a locked case into the passenger terminal to check it onto a flight. I think the real question is if it is legal to carry a loaded firearm on your person while in, say, baggage claim.

Oh, I know. We'll get the interpretation soon about carrying "on your person" while in the non-sterile areas of the airport. Not in the terminal or beyond the security checkpoints, just in the airport areas.

 

[wolfhunter]

In Florida it is legal to bring an unloaded firearm in a case to the check-in counter to be checked. It is NOT legal to carry a firearm on your person anywhere at an airport except the parking lot.

 

[45fella]

The email has been sent to the "Florida Concealed Weapons Section" for interpretation, usually they take a few days to get back to me.

Here's the definition of "sterile area" or "secure area" of an airport.

Generally people are screened through airport security into the concourses, where the exit gates to the aircraft are located. This area is often called a secure or sterile area, and is referred to as airside. Passengers are discharged from airliners into the sterile area so that they usually will not have to be re-screened if disembarking from a domestic flight; however they are still subject to search at any time. Eating establishments have started using plastic glasses and utensils as opposed to glasses made out of glass and utensils made out of metal to reduce the usefulness of such items as weapons.

If you DO NOT go through security you are still in the "non-sterile" or "unsecure area". If they wanted the curb to be sterile also, they would put you through a metal detector as you stepped out of your car. Its also why there are signs "right before" you enter the line to go through security that says, "no firearms or weapons beyond this point".

 

[magicman007]

You have to remember, TSA people think they're something that they are not. They're just baggage checkers, they're not lawyers or law enforcement. They know very little.

Like I said, I have walked my gun case right up to the counter tons of times to check it as checked bags when I travel. I think if the terminal started at the curb someone over the past 10 years would have said something to me. The law states "sterile areas" and those that require a person to go through security. An airport is nothing more than a mall with restaurants and stores. When you go through security you are in the terminal.

Transporting firearms on the airlines is 100% legal. They don't require you to stand in traffic out front and wait for someone to come outside to get your gun case from you.

Personally what I do is: I call and get a name of a ticket agent so I have a contact person when I arrive at the counter. So I can at least say I informed them I'm coming.

I did say LOADED firearm. Transportation of a locked, UNLOADED firearm, in a locked, secure case is NOT illegal. I thought this discussion was about carrying on your person, a loaded firearm for self defense. Not just transporting while a passenger.

 

[magicman007]

This is directly taken from FS 790.06 (12): No license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize any person to carry a concealed weapon or firearm into... inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport, provided that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, which firearm is encased for shipment for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft. (snipped for brevity)

A passenger terminal is defined by Webster's Dictionary as: a terminal that serves air travelers or air freight.

The "Free Online Dictionary" defines "air terminal" this way: A facility on an airfield that functions as an air transportation hub and accommodates the loading and unloading of airlift aircraft and the intransit processing of traffic.

Encart online defines it this way: an airport building with facilities for passengers, where disembarking passengers are received and outward-bound passengers leave to board an aircraft.

I think, no matter which way you cut it, unless there is a separate and noncontiguous building where passengers actually are processed for their flights, the terminal starts at at LEAST the front door of the building. If the passenger embark/disembark area is under the same roof as the rest of the building, I don't think you can carry a LOADED firearm on your person (law enforcement exemptions aside).

 

[LVLouisCyphre]

If 45fella wants to look fashionable in the current edition OJ Simpson clothing line, let him. If you have the it can't happen to you mentality, it will happen to you. 45fella's actions if he does get arrested for illegal CCW in a Florida airport is also a bad reflection of all CCW holders. Something we do not need with Congress being the way it is now.

We've verified by Link Removed who is one of the premier Florida firearm attorneys. Florida statute 790.06 (12) is pretty self explanatory to me.

 

[45fella]

I did say LOADED firearm. Transportation of a locked, UNLOADED firearm, in a locked, secure case is NOT illegal. I thought this discussion was about carrying on your person, a loaded firearm for self defense. Not just transporting while a passenger.

Yes, we're talking about carrying a concealed and loaded weapon on your body. I've transported guns in cases 100 times over the years all over the country, so I know its perfectly within the law to carry a gun into the airport while its unloaded and in a case. The fully loaded magazine sits beside the gun in the case.

FDLE should have the correct answer to me in a couple days. And these are official legal interpretations of the law in question, so I keep them for possible future use.

 

[KimberPB]

This is directly taken from FS 790.06 (12): No license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize any person to carry a concealed weapon or firearm into... inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport, provided that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, which firearm is encased for shipment for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft. (snipped for brevity)

A passenger terminal is defined by Webster's Dictionary as: a terminal that serves air travelers or air freight.

The "Free Online Dictionary" defines "air terminal" this way: A facility on an airfield that functions as an air transportation hub and accommodates the loading and unloading of airlift aircraft and the intransit processing of traffic.

Encart online defines it this way: an airport building with facilities for passengers, where disembarking passengers are received and outward-bound passengers leave to board an aircraft.

I think, no matter which way you cut it, unless there is a separate and noncontiguous building where passengers actually are processed for their flights, the terminal starts at at LEAST the front door of the building. If the passenger embark/disembark area is under the same roof as the rest of the building, I don't think you can carry a LOADED firearm on your person (law enforcement exemptions aside).

Thanks, exactly what I'm talking about. The passenger terminals, or at least the section of the airport that the passenger load and unload the plane, are completely separate buildings at Tampa International. You have to go through a security check point then board a tram to take you to the air side terminals. So the main building is for checking in and baggage claim only. So when I read the law originally, to me, the passenger terminals were the individual buildings for the loading and unloading. But I could have been wrong. We'll see what 45fella turns up.

 

[45fella]

On a side note, since we're talking about airport security.

I'm in airports every week, usually on the corporate jet side and not as much in the actual airline terminals. But why do they allow cops to walk around in the gate areas with their weapons, makes no sense. The entire TSA plan is to keep weapons from getting onto a plane. If I, or anyone wanted to, they can easily knock-out one of these cops strolling around the gates, take their weapon and run right onto a jetway, onto a plane full of people and two pilots sitting up front waiting to leave the gate. Now you have a bunch of terrorists, with a firearm, on a plane full of hostages.

So much effort and money spent to keep a gun from getting through the metal detectors, and boom, there already through for anyone to grab.

Always wondered about that.

 

[LVLouisCyphre]

On a side note, since we're talking about airport security.

I'm in airports every week, usually on the corporate jet side and not as much in the actual airline terminals. But why do they allow cops to walk around in the gate areas with their weapons, makes no sense. The entire TSA plan is to keep weapons from getting onto a plane. If I, or anyone wanted to, they can easily knock-out one of these cops strolling around the gates, take their weapon and run right onto a jetway, onto a plane full of people and two pilots sitting up front waiting to leave the gate. Now you have a bunch of terrorists, with a firearm, on a plane full of hostages.

So much effort and money spent to keep a gun from getting through the metal detectors, and boom, there already through for anyone to grab.

Always wondered about that.

Because on-duty LEOs that have jurisdiction or are permitted to travel armed are exempt from the CFRs pertaining to the secure area of a commercial airport.

 

[45fella]

Because on-duty LEOs that have jurisdiction or are permitted to travel armed are exempt from the CFRs pertaining to the secure area of a commercial airport.

You failed to see my point. A uniformed cop carrying a gun BEYOND the security check-points is a target for a would-be terrorist, for easily getting a gun onto a fully loaded plane.

My point is: Why do they allow it...because it is very stupid to allow that.