Point Shooting

[kelcarry]

Hey Y'all: Could not, with my limited computer skills, search out threads on point shooting so I'm asking. I'm pretty good target shooting at range with my 38 and my 380 but would like to appreciate comments and suggestions on how to develop a true ability to just point shoot with these weapons. I foresee, in a "what if" situation, that this is a more likely scenario forthe use of my firearm. Are there any hints, comments, suggestions out there that would be helpful in developing this skill. I do it now with a shotgun but with 10 or 15 pellets flying around, it is not that hard.

 

[KimberPB]

When I started defensive shooting the instructor I went to was really big on point shooting. He'd always say "If you can point at something you can shoot it!" But here is a good way to get started:

Move the target out to 7 -10ft, the average distance of must attacks. Start with the gun at a low ready (standing up straight, feet shoulder width, Gun in at your chest, finger off the trigger along the slide) Then when ready extend the gun, bend your knee, lean into the gun, and point at your target. Once you're in a good shooting position and pointing at your target place your finger in the trigger guard and pull the trigger. Then finger off the trigger, return to a low ready, and repeat.

Start slow and safe. As you get more comfortable and making good hits you can increase the speed and start mixing in double, triple, ect.

If you can find a good instructor and get some one on one time that’s always the best.

You can also dry fire practice this at home. MAKE SURE THE GUN IS EMPTY. Go through the above steps but at the end close an eye and see if you actually hit were you were pointing.

Hope this helps and if you have any questions feel free to IM me.

 

[jtg452]

The hardest part of learning to point shoot is learning to trust your body and to forget about the sights. Basically, you focus on a particular spot on the target (the smaller the better), point your trigger finger at it at it and press the trigger. To be successful, your gun's gotta fit your hand and you have to get the same grip on the gun every time AND have good, consistent trigger control. To start, I'd suggest bringing the gun up about mid way (about solar plexus high) and use BIG targets. If you are using a revolver, I found that shooting 'from the hip' (hold the gun at waist high, arm bent at a 90 degree angle and lock your elbow onto the front edge of your hipbone with your upper arm tight against your rib cage) is actually easier to master because you can't see the gun so you don't try to look at it. Every time you look at the gun, it starts moving but if you look at the target and just point, it stays still so DON"T LOOK AT THE GUN.

 

[HK4U]

Link Removed

Link Removed

The Goal of the Gunman by Gabe Suarez

 

[AvidshooterTX]

I remember reading that Wyatt Earp said he wasn't that fast - that he deliberately aimed while his opponent got off one or two shots in the dirt or over his head - before Earp killed him. Seems to me accuracy is more important. But it takes some nerves to do that. Earp said take your time and shoot fast.

 

[kelcarry]

Thank you guys for some good advice. I also found another site that had some interesting comments----threatfocused forums.

 

[GLOCK9]

KIMBER PB has Some Good things to Say... Point Shooting is VERY important in Real World encounters and not the range with Falling steel plates. In my deployment over the years, I have been in several firefights..and even with Rifles, Point shooting is very important. Gain ground, shooting while moving or engaging multiple targets. HELL, It's VERY important to Point shoot while turning to RUN...YES, RUN.... For Cover. Moving is Not always towards your opponent.

The Pistol must fit your hand naturally. Some guns point better for me than others. I find smaller grips point better...JFrames just point natural as it you are punching your fist out, and fire when your arm fully extends towards the target. I Found the 1911 straight grip points well, but the A1 grip frame with arched mainspring points very high for me. The Glock 17 and 19 both point well, but the smaller 26 and such do not.... They both point very high.

Check out YOUTUBE had a Good Israel Point shooting instruction (might still) BUT, it is TWO handed point shooting. I find One Handed much better, as the second hand might be used to push away someone, grab a car door, grab someone or grab a pack or equipment, even grab for a rifle.. I like ONE HAND Shooting. A Pistol is a HAND gun... A rifle is Two Hands. That might be my old time training... But I found in My experience it works... Not for small groups..not for steel plates...BUT a 18"x18" Chest is hit every shot just by pointing....Thou, I do not like the exaggerated stance of Fairbanks or the FBI Point stance... Stand UP...POINT your finger and fist and Shoot.
Kimber PB has the First part of training down... I couldnt add more to that. Once you have that natural feel, feel free to IM me as well.

Stay Safe... God Bless... Captain Philippine Security Extraction Service

 

[HK4U]

I remember reading that Wyatt Earp said he wasn't that fast - that he deliberately aimed while his opponent got off one or two shots in the dirt or over his head - before Earp killed him. Seems to me accuracy is more important. But it takes some nerves to do that. Earp said take your time and shoot fast.

I have a video that I got from The NRA. It is Rob Pincus of the Valhalla shooting school, one of the best schools in the country. On it he explains what he calls Combat Focus Shooting. He explains that anywhere in the center of mass accomplishes our desired results and that generally if you are all over the target and not in this area yo are shooting to fast. On the other hand he explains that if you are shooting to small a group you are probably shooting to slow. i.e. before your adversary has time to kill you. You want to be relatively accurate but accuracy does you little good if you are already dead.


The Valhalla Training Center Newsletter: Combat Focus Shooting Instructor Development Course in Farmington, NM

 

[kelcarry]

Hey Glock9 and Y'all: You mention one hand shooting. I have a Jframe 642 38 and a kel tec 380 P3at. I find it enough trouble just shooting accurate with 2 hands and that is when I am "aiming" at a target. These guns are light, small and pack a bit of a punch on recoil not to mention the long, hard trigger pull of each one. I fail to appreciate how in the world I can point shoot with any accuracy with only a one hand grip, unless you give me the expected answer of practice, practice, practice. I find that the long and hard trigger pull plays into inaccuracy, which improves if I minimize the long trigger pull by "going half way on the pull" before truly aiming at the target (kind of like having a cocked trigger vs a non-cocked trigger). I did pick up one thing as I perused sites-----I have noted that when I just point with my finger extended and then reexamine what I am aiming at with my dominant eye (for me it is right eye open), the finger is consistently slightly low and slightly to the left of the target. I've got to go out to range and appreciate that fact when I point shoot and also move firearm slightly higher and to the right, which should put me back on the target---does that sound correct? I'm also interested in comments by jtg452 about shooting from the hip and being able to maintain more "stability"--probably give it a try---likewise with my shotgun. I guess this all comes down to some good instruction and direction and then it is up to me to develop technique that just fits me. We'll see. I definitely feel that if I am to defend myself in a very quick and fluid situation, aiming at a target takes that extra second or two that is not there. When I target shoot with some guys and they are using a 9mm, they are aiming for several seconds before firing--yes they hit the target, but I shake my head because I just do not see a slime waiting around while I aim for several seconds. Hope these comments make sense. Again I appreciate your replies and look forward to any other comments.

 

[SteveB]

Hey Glock9 and Y'all: You mention one hand shooting. I have a Jframe 642 38 and a kel tec 380 P3at. I find it enough trouble just shooting accurate with 2 hands and that is when I am "aiming" at a target. These guns are light, small and pack a bit of a punch on recoil not to mention the long, hard trigger pull of each one. I fail to appreciate how in the world I can point shoot with any accuracy with only a one hand grip, unless you give me the expected answer of practice, practice, practice. I find that the long and hard trigger pull plays into inaccuracy, which improves if I minimize the long trigger pull by "going half way on the pull" before truly aiming at the target (kind of like having a cocked trigger vs a non-cocked trigger). I did pick up one thing as I perused sites-----I have noted that when I just point with my finger extended and then reexamine what I am aiming at with my dominant eye (for me it is right eye open), the finger is consistently slightly low and slightly to the left of the target. I've got to go out to range and appreciate that fact when I point shoot and also move firearm slightly higher and to the right, which should put me back on the target---does that sound correct? I'm also interested in comments by jtg452 about shooting from the hip and being able to maintain more "stability"--probably give it a try---likewise with my shotgun. I guess this all comes down to some good instruction and direction and then it is up to me to develop technique that just fits me. We'll see. I definitely feel that if I am to defend myself in a very quick and fluid situation, aiming at a target takes that extra second or two that is not there. When I target shoot with some guys and they are using a 9mm, they are aiming for several seconds before firing--yes they hit the target, but I shake my head because I just do not see a slime waiting around while I aim for several seconds. Hope these comments make sense. Again I appreciate your replies and look forward to any other comments.

I found with a Rossie .38 snub, I could should more accurately by fast point shooting, rather than slow and deliberate. With it's stiff trigger pull, you end up pulling off target if trying to take careful aim.

 

[GLOCK9]

KelCarry... Not coming down on you...I'll try not to say the words Practice. Who the Hell likes to practice? I always want to be an expert right off the bat!
But, I think You are Losing ALL the Point of this..(No Pun intended) ... You Find it Hard to Shoot Accurate?? What is accurate? You Didn't say....First off, "Back in the Day" the Guns you are carrying were called "BELLY GUNS"... Not because you carried it in your waistband... Its Because that's where you shot the guy... You Pulled it out, Pressed it against the guys Belly and Pulled the Trigger... Watch Lee Harvey Oswald get it from Jack Ruby! Classic Snub Nose Usage.

Can you Hit a Paper Plate at 10 Feet? Hang some Balloons on a sheet of Cardboard at the Range...Just ONE Balloon smack in the Middle of the Cardboard... start at 5-7 feet... Just keep the Pistol down on the bench or rest... in one motion just raise the gun and fire at the Balloon...DO NOT LOOK ANYWHERE BUT THE BALLOON.... if it Popped, You are Accurate! CONGRATS. Too many use the term point shooting...it should be call Instinctual Shooting.

Your observation is correct about "taking aim"...Sure, aiming my 649 J Frame, it's surprisingly accurate... But chances are I'll never fire it that way in a situation. Point the Gun... (I still don't know what you mean accurate?) Just Hang a Paper Grocery Bag Up...Simple..Now, You Can't Hit That? YES, of course the gun will jerk with a long heavy trigger... YES, your groups will look like a spread... But, Did you Hit the Paper Bag? You mean to tell me in a Shooting situation, That a hit 6" away from your "Desired Placement" is going to make a difference? I'll tell you...It Does Not.
Your concern about not pointing your finger where you look, lower to the left or whatever...are You Left EYE Dominant and Right Handed? I Am... I fire handguns with my right hand, and Left Eye... I shoot long guns off my left shoulder... May be a similar situation.

THE BEST WAY I've heard Point shooting explained is , It is like swinging a Hammer.... You Dont look at the Hammer..You Look at the Nail and Hit it.... Start close and fire just one shot each...when you hit that Paper Bag, Then raise the gun, thrust it at the paper-bag, concentrating on the center...and fire twice as fast as you can pull the trigger... 7"-8" group? Did you hit the Bag? Where did you fail then?
When you say "accurate"... Its not campetion or steel plates... Look How BIG... How freaking BIG a Person is at personal defense range. Go Center Mass... I like The Belt Buckle area to concentrate on... At Night eyes always go screwy a little and your brain always goes higher with your eyes... if you point, keeping your eye at the belt buckle or belt line, I found I get mid sternum hits...that goes with a rifle as well... and that is actually a great place to plunk a bullet... A lot of bones in the pelvis area that keep a person up and moving..you break that, and its better than a single lung hit.
People (Again not focusing on you KelCarry)... Put too much emphasis on the science and structure of things... This is as simple as eating with a fork and knife... POINT THE GUN... PULL THE TRIGGER....

Stay Safe .... Be a Good Person.... Captain

 

[jtg452]

Hey Glock9 and Y'all: You mention one hand shooting. I have a Jframe 642 38 and a kel tec 380 P3at. I find it enough trouble just shooting accurate with 2 hands and that is when I am "aiming" at a target. These guns are light, small and pack a bit of a punch on recoil not to mention the long, hard trigger pull of each one. I fail to appreciate how in the world I can point shoot with any accuracy with only a one hand grip, unless you give me the expected answer of practice, practice, practice. I find that the long and hard trigger pull plays into inaccuracy, which improves if I minimize the long trigger pull by "going half way on the pull" before truly aiming at the target (kind of like having a cocked trigger vs a non-cocked trigger). I did pick up one thing as I perused sites-----I have noted that when I just point with my finger extended and then reexamine what I am aiming at with my dominant eye (for me it is right eye open), the finger is consistently slightly low and slightly to the left of the target. I've got to go out to range and appreciate that fact when I point shoot and also move firearm slightly higher and to the right, which should put me back on the target---does that sound correct? I'm also interested in comments by jtg452 about shooting from the hip and being able to maintain more "stability"--probably give it a try---likewise with my shotgun. I guess this all comes down to some good instruction and direction and then it is up to me to develop technique that just fits me. We'll see. I definitely feel that if I am to defend myself in a very quick and fluid situation, aiming at a target takes that extra second or two that is not there. When I target shoot with some guys and they are using a 9mm, they are aiming for several seconds before firing--yes they hit the target, but I shake my head because I just do not see a slime waiting around while I aim for several seconds. Hope these comments make sense. Again I appreciate your replies and look forward to any other comments.

Kel,
You've gonna either work on your hand strength to be able to shoot that heavy trigger pull or swap to another gun. Just like in Bullseye,you gotta have good trigger control and a smooth press, if you don't, you ain't gonna hit anything point shooting. One hole groups are not the goal of point shooting. Point shooting isn't about precision, it's quick and dirty and 'close 'nuff'. If you get a group the size of the bottom of a Coke can, it's a fantastic group. Very good is the size of the palm of a man's hand.

If you start overthinking it, you'll never learn to point shoot. Been there, done that- that's how I know that looking at the gun makes it move around.:biggrin: Don't worry about adjusting your hold up and right. It's more about the basic mechanics of shooting (grip and trigger pull) and trusting your instincts than it is quick analysis. Look at target, point at target, mash the boom button. If you've got a solid master grip and you gave the trigger a smooth press, the bullet will go pretty close to where you are looking.

 

[MONTANA]

Try this when you are alone on the range and have absolutely made sure that it is safe. It may freak out someone else if they see you doing it. Go no more than 10 to 12 feet from a fairly large target. Bring your firearm to low ready. Look at the target. Close your eyes. Visualize the target. Open your eyes and look at the target again and get another good vsual image. Close your eyes, visualize the target, extend your firearm into a good combat ready position and squeeze off two rounds. Not always, but many times, you will hit the target even with your eyes closed because your brain has imprinted the visual image. This may help a person with automatic muscle memory and improve point shooting skills when practicing normally.

 

[KimberPB]

Alot of good info here.

Combat accurate vs Target shooting accurate - Here is what I've read and been taught as far as what’s considered accurate enough. Draw a line down the center to the body. Any hit, roughly, three inches left or right of that center line is most likely going to hit a vital organ. This gives you roughly a six to seven inch strip from head to crouch that would be considered good hits. If after a practice session I've remained inside that strip I'm happy with my shooting.

Glock9 has it right about shooting one handed and on the move. I don't care how good a target shooter you are the first time you have to shot on the move it'll make you feel stupid. If you have a chance to take a class or have a range you can safely do this. DO IT. Try engaging four targets while moving to cover. I've seen more then one person trip and fall while doing this. I also try to get in a few mags shooting right handed two handed, left handed two handed, right hand single hand, left hand single hand, and in tight from a low ready.

I know you don't want to hear this but the best way to get use to that heavy double action trigger is get some snap caps and dry fire at home..... A LOT. This will not only help you with your trigger pull but also start that muscle memory.

 

[jtg452]

KimberPB is right on target about learning to shoot a DA trigger (no pun intended). The way I learned to shoot a DA wheelgun was a LOT of dry fire practice using this training exercise.

1. Clear the gun,
2. Load the snap caps
3. Verify that those are really snap caps in the gun and close cylinder
4 Find a point on the wall over your bed about eye level to aim at (paneled walls are real handy for this one)
5. Point gun in general area of chosen aiming point
6. Put a coin on the barrel flat (dimes are great because they are thin but anything will work)
7. Aim at the chosen point on the wall and ,focusing ONLY on the front sight (NOT THE COIN), pull the trigger.
8-a. If you screwed up, bend over and get the coin off the bed.
OR
8-b.You do it right and the coin stays in place, so try it again.

Repeat exercise for short periods (10 minutes or so) multiple times a day if possible until you can shoot all the way around the cylinder without having to pick up the coin. You gotta build the muscles you need to pull the trigger and build muscle memory so you can keep the trigger pull smooth.

 

[AvidshooterTX]

Many shooters are flinchers. This showed up when I used to shoot muzzleloaders in competition and someone would have a misfire or hang-fire. You would see the muzzle drop as they anticipated the shot and pushed against it. The shooters who always won would hold steady thru these. When shooting with friends I will often ask to see their firearm. I'll unload it and pretend to reload it with some of my ammo and then ask them to shoot again. The gun is empty but they don't know it. You should see that muzzle move as they anticipate the shot. Dry-fire practice is really good for this, preferably with snap caps.

 

[kelcarry]

Hey Y'all: I really want to thank all my fellow forum members who have developed point shoot techniques and experience and have shared them with me. I should note that I used the word "accuracy" and I appreciate, from many comments, that it is not exactly what I meant and it was the wrong word when trying to discuss point shooting, which is IMO primarily about shooting at a target only several feet away and hitting body mass and not just the center circle. I've yet to try shooting with one hand and will give it more time, in addition to using some of the techniques y'all have suggested. Let you know in a few weeks whether I've become that fearsome defender. Just as an afterthought, I should mention that I am 68 years old and have walked my share of streets in NY/NJ. My common sense and thinking ahead engineering aptitude has rewarded me with NEVER having had any kind of incident that even remotely required a firearm, point shooting etc. I truly believe that it is a good idea to be proactive and learn the art of firearm defense but without common sense etc you may very well be doomed to failure, even with firearm abilities.

 

[GLOCK9]

Group:
I had a Conversation with a man in my team about this yesterday. "Point Shooting"... My Squad gets along wonderful, as we are for the most part, Liked Minded when it comes to practical shooting and theories (experience)... Different in WHAT we Carry...Out of the Six Guys, I mostly carry a GLOCK 19, we have (1) GLOCK 17, (2) Colt 1911 Pattern .45acp ,(1) Beretta 92 and Sig 228 .9mm. All Different Style Guns..with different Grip angles ....
As Soon as we were in the discussion, he corrected me several times when I'd say Point Shooting... When What I meant (I wrote in a previous Post), it should really be Called Instinctive Shooting.... The Pistol "points" and Bullet delivered where you Look with your eyes....
I used the Hammer analogy ...and it works... How many times have we, or seen a guy swing a Hammer while reaching AROUND a 2x4 and drive that nail... His hand/wrist is crooked... he is not squarely facing the nail... his head is cocked...Yet, You/He hits that nail right on the head with a Hammer swung from behind his line of sight!!
Amazing... Shooting is No Different. The Pistol Muzzle goes where your Eye is...
I like to "point" the Gun at what Im shooting at with My Hand extended, But Several times, I HAVE fired while turning, running, running while shooting behind me... (Yes, I was Running Away Dammit)... I NEVER had a conscious thought about where the Sights were or even Where the muzzle was pointing...All I Know was That I was Looking at The Intended Recipient of the Bullet and Swung the Hammer from behind my Line of Sight... That Kinda Shooting. I Instinctually "Pointed" and Fired when my Minds Eye said "Everything Looks Good Boss".... BOOM.
In No Way am I promoting Spray and Pray... Point Shooting is Fire Control, not sight alinement. You Can instinct Shoot with a 5 Shot Snub just the Same as a 17 round GLOCK.

Just Some Extra Thoughts.... My Experience and Worth All the 2 Cents..... God Bless. Captain

 

[jtg452]

And he was reported to have on occation carried a rather long barreled revolver known as a Buntline.

But the sources of the report are questionable at best. While Colt did make long barreled guns for the World Expo in Philly in 1876, there is no record that Ned Buntline ordered a half dozen of them. Nor did Bat Masterson, Bill Tighman or any of the other Dodge City policemen he reputedly gifted such guns to ever admit to receiving them. Masterson and Tighman both lived well into the 20th Century (as did Wyatt) and were frequently asked about it.

One was 'Ned Buntline', a writer of 'penny dreadfuls' (super cheap, overly sensational works of fiction that made the back of a cereal box look like literary treasures) and a bigger self promoter (he'd say ANYTHING to grab a couple lines of print) than ANY of the reality 'stars' we are cursed with today. He could teach grad school level classes on self promotion and made all of the 'they're famous because...?' types of today look like wall flowers.

Then you have Stuart Lake. He was allowed to 'interview' Wyatt for the book because it promised Wyatt a good payday and you had Josie around to make sure that Wyatt came out looking good. Wyatt wasn't above making money off of those who wanted to meet him (Josie regularly went to pawn shops and bought old guns so Wyatt could sell them to admirers and Bat Masterson did the same thing) and if you were paying enough, he'd tell you a good story. Most of it was made up, but you paid your money so he'd spin you a yarn. Lake was gullible enough to take the yarn that he was told as the Gospel According to Wyatt. Josie was still around and I can gaurantee you that she wasn't going to let a little thing like the truth get in the way of making Wyatt look good.

 

[Neal]

I have thought about this situation as well, but I plan to get a laser sight for my CC piece so that I won't have to worry about bringing the unit up to aim it. Does this make sense or am I missing something? I would think that a laser site would be very useful on a defensive, rather than sporting, weapon.

Neal