Pistol transfer help!

[advw]

Hello all, been a while since I posted. I purchased a pistol with my CPL that I am holding for my buddy. He doens't have his CPL so we just want to transfer it to him when he gets his purchase permit.

My question is, do I also need to fill out the RI-60 (I beleive its called) along with obtaining the purchase permit he gets? Or is there anything else that I need? Any help is much appreciated!!

 

[NavyLCDR]

Hello all, been a while since I posted. I purchased a pistol with my CPL that I am holding for my buddy.

Are you going to give it to him as a gift with no compensation for either the act of purchasing it or for the pistol itself? If not, you have already committed what is referred to as a straw purchase and have already committed a Federal felony.

 

[advw]

No I bought it for myself, but he wants to purchase it from me. I am not giving it to him as a gift or anything. Sorry I didn't mention that.

 

[Treo]

No I bought it for myself, but he wants to purchase it from me. I am not giving it to him as a gift or anything. Sorry I didn't mention that.

Am I the only one who noticed how the story changed?

 

[advw]

We are both legally allowed to posses firearms, I just wanted to know if there were other forms I needed to fill out. I just want to make sure I'm doing things correctly.

 

[NavyLCDR]

My question is, do I also need to fill out the RI-60 (I beleive its called) along with obtaining the purchase permit he gets? Or is there anything else that I need? Any help is much appreciated!!

28.422. License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol; issuance; qualifications; applications; sale of pistol; exemptions; nonresidents; basic pistol safety brochure; forging application; implementation during business hours.

(5) If an individual purchases or otherwise
acquires a pistol, the seller shall fill out the
license forms describing the pistol, together with
the date of sale or acquisition, and sign his or
her name in ink indicating that the pistol was
sold to or otherwise acquired by the purchaser.
The purchaser shall also sign his or her name in
ink indicating the purchase or other acquisition
of the pistol from the seller. The seller may
retain a copy of the license as a record of the
transaction. The purchaser shall receive 3
copies of the license. The purchaser shall return
2 copies of the license to the licensing authority
within 10 days after the date the pistol is
purchased or acquired. The return of the copies
to the licensing authority may be made in person
or may be made by first-class mail or certified
mail sent within the 10-day period to the proper
address of the licensing authority. A purchaser
who fails to comply with the requirements of this
subsection is responsible for a state civil
infraction and may be fined not more than
$250.00. If a purchaser is found responsible for
a state civil infraction under this subsection, the
court shall notify the department of state police
of that determination.



The RI-60 form appears to be only required if sold to a CPL holder. I am not a lawyer, and I am not from Michigan.

 

[advw]

Thank you sir. I appreciate it.

 

[Stan45]

Just move to a state that is more pro gun. That would make it easy.

 

[alduane]

Am I the only one who noticed how the story changed?

Yes but who cares. I'd change my story too. LOL

 

[XDM40cal]

OK, this how it works.... You bought the firearm for your self, YOU filled out a 4473 and answerd all the question that you are buying it for yourself. Now that your buddy wants to Buy it from you He needs to get a PP from his local sheriff's office or Local PD.. They you USE THE PP for transfer. RI-60 is for CPL to CPL..

*straw purchase*
A straw purchase is a situation in which a buyer uses an intermediary (a "straw purchaser") through which to acquire one or more firearms from a licensed firearms dealer. The purpose is to hide the identity of the true purchaser or ultimate possessor of the firearm(s). Straw purchases and theft are the most common ways that prohibited people, such as convicted felons, obtain firearms.

In the United States, straw purchases are a felony violation of the Gun Control Act of 1968 for both the straw purchaser and ultimate possessor.

As long as his friend gets PP then straw purchase is now moot...

 

[advw]

Awesome. Thank you very much.

 

[Big Gay Al]

Actually, it's not illegal if the person he bought the pistol for can legally own firearms. If the person he bought it for can't, then he's in deep do-do.

That's what I was told by ATFE. That's also what it indicates on their website, when I went looking. :smile:

 

[NavyLCDR]

Actually, it's not illegal if the person he bought the pistol for can legally own firearms. If the person he bought it for can't, then he's in deep do-do.

That's what I was told by ATFE. That's also what it indicates on their website, when I went looking. :smile:

You were misinformed, Big Gay Al:

Page 165 of this document published by the BATFE:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

15. STRAW PURCHASES

Questions have arisen concerning the lawfulness of firearms purchases from licensees by persons who use a "straw purchaser" (another person) to acquire the firearms. Specifically, the actual buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute the Form 4473 purporting to show that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser of the firearm. In some instances, a straw purchaser is used because the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. That is to say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is within one of the other prohibited categories of persons who may not lawfully acquire firearms or is a resident of a State other than that in which the licensee's business premises is located. Because of his or her disability, the person uses a straw purchaser who is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm from the licensee. In other instances, neither the straw purchaser nor the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm.

In both instances, the straw purchaser violates Federal law by making false statements on Form 4473 to the licensee with respect to the identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm, as well as the actual purchaser's residence address and date of birth. The actual purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser to acquire a firearm has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of the false statements. The licensee selling the firearm under these circumstances also violates Federal law if the licensee is aware of the false statements on the form. It is immaterial that the actual purchaser and the straw purchaser are residents of the State in which the licensee's business premises is located, are not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms, and could have lawfully purchased firearms from the licensee.

Notice the portions I highlighted, straight from the main document published by the BATFE that FFLs operate by.

 

[Big Gay Al]

You were misinformed, Big Gay Al:

Page 165 of this document published by the BATFE:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf


Notice the portions I highlighted, straight from the main document published by the BATFE that FFLs operate by.

Well, their "straw purchase example script" doesn't agree.

What if a customer who qualifies to own a gun buys a firearm as a gift for someone else?

The same rules apply. A transaction is legal as long as the person who fills out form 4473 does so truthfully and completes it as the actual purchaser. In that particular situation, we usually like to make sure they are aware of the rules associated with ATF I 5300.2. Again, you should feel comfortable denying the purchase if you think the customer is being dishonest in any way.

And from the link you provided above:

Where a person purchases a firearm
with the intent of making a gift of the
firearm to another person, the person
making the purchase is indeed the true
purchaser. There is no straw purchaser
in these instances. In the above example, if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm
with his own money to give to Mr. Smith
as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could
lawfully have completed Form 4473.
The use of gift certificates would also
not fall within the category of straw purchases. The person redeeming the gift
certificate would be the actual purchaser
of the firearm and would be properly
reflected as such in the dealer's records.

The problem is the examples they list. They don't go into enough detail. And they tell you one minute it's ok, and the next it's not. Trying to make sense out of the ATF system just plains sucks.

Which is why I agree with a signature I saw, and I'm sure everyone else has seen it too:

"Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency."

With all that said, based on the ATFE forms and such, and the OP's statement of "I purchased..." if we assume for the moment he bought the gun with his own money, with the intent of giving it as a gift, based on what I have quoted above, it looks to me like it's legal. But, I'm not a lawyer, nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

 

[alduane]

Well, their "straw purchase example script" doesn't agree.



And from the link you provided above:



The problem is the examples they list. They don't go into enough detail. And they tell you one minute it's ok, and the next it's not. Trying to make sense out of the ATF system just plains sucks.

Which is why I agree with a signature I saw, and I'm sure everyone else has seen it too:

"Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency."

With all that said, based on the ATFE forms and such, and the OP's statement of "I purchased..." if we assume for the moment he bought the gun with his own money, with the intent of giving it as a gift, based on what I have quoted above, it looks to me like it's legal. But, I'm not a lawyer, nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

It seems to me that the key is whether you lie on the form and what the intent of the purchase is. If you are buying it for someone else with his money then you are guilty. If you are buying it with your own money intending it as a gift then you're not. Who's money are you using to buy it. If someone gave you the money to buy a gun for them it would be illegal but the government would have to prove your intent if the other person was not prohibited. A friend is not likely to rat you out. Of course you could be set up by the BATF by having someone offer to pay you something extra to buy the gun for them. The government would have to suspect you in the first place before they would bother though.

 

[NavyLCDR]

^^^^CORRECT. I think we are confusing the two situations here. The original OP made it sound like he purchased a gun for the buddy, with the buddy's money, while waiting for his buddy to get his permit. That would be a straw purchase, whether or not the buddy is prohibited or not.

If the OP bought the gun as a gift, with no compensation expected, it would be a gift, not a straw purchase.

If the OP bought the gun for himself, with his own money, and then decided later to sell it to the buddy, unrelated to the original purchase, it would not be a straw purchase, regardless of whether or not the buddy was a prohibited person.

Straw purchase and providing a firearm to a prohibited person are two entirely different acts, although the first may be performed to facilitate the second.

 

[Big Gay Al]

Basically, it comes down to whether or not the OP used his own money and gifted the firearm, or if his buddy gave him the money. If I were the OP, I'd just stay quiet on the whole subject, specially since he found out what he wanted to know about registering the pistol. :smile:

 

[Big Gay Al]

Something I just recalled. A few years ago, I advertised a firearm for sale on one of the many online auction sites. I was contacted by someone who wanted to buy the gun from me, but wanted to send me MORE than what I was asking for it. He wanted me to cash the check, take the money for the gun then forward the balance to a "friend" of his. Oh, and he wanted me to send the gun directly to him. No FFL. I tried telling him several times, we had to work through a dealer. Either English was his 2nd, or maybe 3rd language, or he was hoping I'd do as he asked. I contacted ATFE with all the info. I never heard back from them, or the "mystery buyer" again.

I think I was about to be setup, but didn't fall for the trap. Or maybe I'm just paranoid? :wink:

 

[alduane]

Something I just recalled. A few years ago, I advertised a firearm for sale on one of the many online auction sites. I was contacted by someone who wanted to buy the gun from me, but wanted to send me MORE than what I was asking for it. He wanted me to cash the check, take the money for the gun then forward the balance to a "friend" of his. Oh, and he wanted me to send the gun directly to him. No FFL. I tried telling him several times, we had to work through a dealer. Either English was his 2nd, or maybe 3rd language, or he was hoping I'd do as he asked. I contacted ATFE with all the info. I never heard back from them, or the "mystery buyer" again.

I think I was about to be setup, but didn't fall for the trap. Or maybe I'm just paranoid? :wink:

That's a common scam and not just with guns. They send more than the asking price and ask you to send them or someone the difference back. After they get your money and maybe your item then the check bounces and you are SOL. Even supposed certified checks can bounce.

 

[Big Gay Al]

That's a common scam and not just with guns. They send more than the asking price and ask you to send them or someone the difference back. After they get your money and maybe your item then the check bounces and you are SOL. Even supposed certified checks can bounce.

Yeah, I've seen that scam, though not with the firearm purchase deal. In any event, I NEVER would do anything until the check cleared. And I've seen some good scams tried out too. One came from a Canadian address, which screamed scam in 12 foot high letters. The letter went on about how I had been chosen at random to when 5 million dollars or something. In order to get it, I had to pay some fee, so they advanced me part of the money ($4500.00) I was to keep I think $2500.00 and use 2000.00 to pay some "expense" fee. There was a number I was to call and everything. I called, they gave me instructions, and of course, I had to send this money right away. I said no problem. When I hung up with them, I called US Postal Inspectors, FBI, Secret Service, no US Agency wanted to bother with it, they have so many. They all told me to forget it and throw away the check.

So, I contacted the RCMP for the area the letter had been mailed from, in British Columbia I think. First, they were surprised none of the US agencies wanted it, but understood, they were likely inundated with thousands of these things all the time. But, RCMP was very interested. I mailed them the check and the envelope it came in. I heard back about 6 months later, it took them a while, but they finally tracked down the people and caught them. I guess Canada's tax dollars do work, sometimes. :smile: