Pistol permit denied, would appreciate advice

[Piercem]

Hello fellow posters,

I have just made an account on this website after reading a few good threads. I currently have a dilema and would appreciate some imput from people in a similar situation or anyone who understands New York state's permit issuing logic =/

I applied for my pistol permit a week after my 21st birthday (21 being the legal age in ny) I went through the extremely lengthy process of filling out page after page of information, aswell as securing 4 character references which all had to be notarized. I had passport sized photos taken to insert into the application. Paid $110 for a background check and finger printing , $15 for a filing fee, $5 dollars for a judges fee and another $15 for the actual pistol permit course which is mandatory. All said and done i paid $145 to the state in hopes of getting my application accepted.

Allow me to explain what i believe is the reason for denial.

When i was 15 years old i had purchased ingredients online to make fireworks. Not knowing this was illegal at the time i was charged with a felony. The case was immediatly dismissed and did not suffer any consequences such as probation or anything of that sort.

That being said I am curious as to why i was not issued a license. Prior to that arrest i had nothing on my record, i still do not to this day. I do not smoke or drink, which i realize is not relevant to the discussion. But i would consider myself a responsible person that made a mistake when I was a teenager, the charges were even dismissed!

I am currently college studying criminal justice but I am beginning to question whether I should stick with it or not. I mean how am I expected to be hired if I cannot even legally carry a pistol? Are my dismissed charges years ago enough to deny me my 2nd ammendment rights?

EDIT: Additional info to add: I live in upstate new york and the office I am applying through is the Washington Country Sherffs office. On the letter of denial it informed me that i was denied due to penal law 400.00. I researched the law and it has multiple reasons for denial, the only one which would remotely apply to my case is section C., which states, " who has not been convicted anywhere of a felony or a serious offense" Since my case was dropped and the definition of conviction means to be found guilty, this does not apply to me.

I would appreciate any feedback anyone has to offer. Thanks

Update: Made a call to the issuing judge, for a lack of better words he was an ass. He was rude and didn't seem interested in answering any of my questions and told me to speak with the under sheriff. Made a call to him, he wasn't much better. I am in the process of hiring an attorney because i'm tired of playing the state's childish games. If they want to act like idiots and give me the run around i'll take them to court.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

As you well noted, this situation will dog you for decades if you ignore it, and no doubt affect your desired career as well as credit checks, loans, future marriage prospects, employment, military service, etc. A never ending list.

I suggest you hire a good "criminal justice defense attorney" and have him get your record expunged. rather than just sealed. Hiring someone of upper caliber will be much more expedient (but expensive) to your situation but he will probably get it done faster since he should know how, and shouldn't goof up something adding billable time and possibly make your situation worse.

This is sort of like hiring a lawyer to defend your $50 speeding ticket. In the long run simply paying the ticket could cost you thousands later. (you get a couple more and then you go to insurance hell for 3 years= like I did)

DO NOT LET THIS SITUATION CONTINUE. DO IT NOW.

 

[Piercem]

It does look like hiring an attorney is the best option. The thing is money is tight, especially being a college student. But like you said its better to deal with it now than have it haunt me for the rest of my life =/ Thanks for the advice

 

[jhon]

I agree that you should seek out a lawyer. At the very least, the lawyer will be able to obtain as to the reason you were denied. Sounds like you are speculating that the reason was because of the fireworks issue when you were 15. Unfortunately, just because it was dismissed, doesn't mean it does not show up when your name is polled.

If in fact that was the reason, you need to get it sealed and expunged. It probably will cost a bit of money, however, if your desire is to go into law enforcement, ( which I think it is as you are in the criminal justice program ), the money will be worth it.

Search around and do not get the first attorney you talk to. Most attorneys do not charge for the first meeting. Make a list of questions to ask. Find as much as you can about each attorney you plan on seeing before you see them.

Good luck and hope you will get this resolved soon. Please keep us up to date and let us know how it is going. If being a LEO is what you want, keep fighting. It will all be worth it in the long run.

 

[JSDinTexas]

Bottom Line: case was dismissed - maintain official documentation of that for future - and I might attempt to get the entire event removed (expunged) from your record.
Bottom Line: New York? They can deny on a whim and only second to Kommifornia for refusals - move to a state that respects the Constitution - you're welcomed in Texas anytime.

 

[nogods]

Assuming your dismissal qualified, then your case record should have been automatically "sealed" pursuant to NY Criminal Procedure Law section 165.50, unless the DA or the Court gave you notice of intent not to seal it (very rare). Other than the sealing of records, there is no "expunge" provision for arrest records

However, under section 160.50(1)(d)(iii) even sealed records are available to:

"any state or local officer or agency with responsibility for the issuance of licenses to possess guns, when the accused has made application for such a license,"

So you will have to deal with the issue whenever you apply for a pistol permit.

First, you need to find out why the judge denied your permit.

Did you disclose the arrest on your application? If not, then the failure to disclose itself is reason enough to deny your permit, even for a "shall issue" home defense permit.

If you disclosed the arrest, then then judge has to have good cause not to issue you a permit for home defense (NY is a "shall issue" state for home defense unless "good cause" is shown for denying the permit.)

Then maybe after 5 years or so you can go back and seek an expanded permit.

 

[BlackieChan]

If it's too hot in texas come to Washington, we'd love to have you as well.

 

[Piercem]

@ JsdinTexas & BlackieChan

Ha thanks for the invite. I am starting to realize that some of the bad things people say about New York hold some truth.

@ Nogods

"Did you disclose the arrest on your application? If not, then the failure to disclose itself is reason enough to deny your permit, even for a "shall issue" home defense permit."

Yes, I disclosed the arrest record and the disposition. I was also advised by the secretary at the pistol permit office to write a note explaining the charges against me so she would better understand the circumstances. All i got in return was an impersonal (paragraph) of a letter saying that i was denied. I think i will talk to the judge who initially dealt with my case, he has been helpful in the past when i requested the disposition of the case. If worst comes to worst i'll have to hire an attorney =(

Again, all your feedback is greatly appreciated. I will keep this thread up to date for anyone curious of the outcome.

 

[JSDinTexas]

If it's too hot in texas come to Washington, we'd love to have you as well.

It's always too hot in Texas. But us native sons just love it. I put on a coat when the temp goes below 80 degrees.
And it's always cold in the winter. One time some of the boys were sitting around a campfire, it was so cold the words froze as they came out of our mouths - we had to put them in a frying pan and thaw them out to hear what we were saying.

 

[titaniumman]

I found this on USACarry..Concealed Permit:
May Issue to Residents Only
The determination whether to grant the license is completely within the discretion of the licensing officer. However, the licensing officer must state specifically and concisely in writing the reasons for a denial. A denial can only be overturned in court if the denial is shown to be arbitrary and capricious.
This was taken from the NY State Permit info. link
I hope this helps.

 

[Hubs]

It is incumbent upon you to find out why you were denied. It may be something as simple as mistaken identity, name, or some other error. Or, it could be related to your previous history. Nevertheless, you should be able to get an explanation without a lawyer. If they refuse, a lawyer would be your only recourse. As stated, this could dog you for the rest of your life. Get it straightened out....NOW(while you are young)!

 

[Lakeland Man]

One thing I noticed in your story was that your case was dismissed. That means you were not CONVICTED of a felony. I don't know about NY, but here in FL, the question asks if you have been convicted of a felony, not arrested.

Find out the reason for the denial from the issueing authority. Then you'll have a better idea what to do.

 

[nogods]

One thing I noticed in your story was that your case was dismissed. That means you were not CONVICTED of a felony. I don't know about NY, but here in FL, the question asks if you have been convicted of a felony, not arrested.

Find out the reason for the denial from the issueing authority. Then you'll have a better idea what to do.

The NY pistol permit application requires the applicant to disclose any arrest. And Penal Law 160.50 makes the arrest information for dismissed cases available to a licensing office with regard to an applicant. Those records are also with regard to any application for employment as a police officer or peace officer.

So the arrest will be something you need to address for the rest of your life. But it isn't something you can't overcome.

My ex had two DWI's and a felony arrest for attempting to obtain a prescription by fraud, and I had a series of protective orders against her. She still got a pistol permit in Erie county after she got clean.

also, you only have 120 days from the date of the denial to file an article 78 proceeding so you need to act quickly.

 

[cabrera]

I have to agree with Lakeland, you were arrested NOT convicted. Anyone can be arrested at any time, for anything. Get the reason for the denial & follow up on it.

 

[nogods]

An arrest can have an impact on the pistol permit decision, even if it does not result in a conviction. For example, lots of cases get "adjourned in contemplation of dismissal, known as an ACD. If the defendant stays out of trouble for 6 months, the case is dismissed. But the factual premise of the arrest is not resolved. Also, a case may be dismissed for a 4th amendment violation, as in the case of the police wrongfully entering someone's premises and finding a cache of illegal weapons. Case gets dismissed, but the factual premise of the arrest is still a factor.

 

[[email protected]]

You didn't say where in New York. I say that because if it's in the down state area, Long Island or NYC, or upstate? If it's LI or NYC you have a snowballs chance in hell of getting a permit. My wife and I belonged to SASS and did alot of shooting and had some time getting one. It was to carry our firearms locked up tp were ever we were going. Bottom line. I now live in the great state of North Carolina. Good Luck And get that Expunged.

 

[NavyLCDR]

An arrest can have an impact on the pistol permit decision, even if it does not result in a conviction. For example, lots of cases get "adjourned in contemplation of dismissal, known as an ACD. If the defendant stays out of trouble for 6 months, the case is dismissed. But the factual premise of the arrest is not resolved. Also, a case may be dismissed for a 4th amendment violation, as in the case of the police wrongfully entering someone's premises and finding a cache of illegal weapons. Case gets dismissed, but the factual premise of the arrest is still a factor.

New York - yes. Free states in America - no. Thank goodness.

 

[BC1]

Assuming your dismissal qualified, then your case record should have been automatically "sealed" pursuant to NY Criminal Procedure Law section 165.50, unless the DA or the Court gave you notice of intent not to seal it (very rare). Other than the sealing of records, there is no "expunge" provision for arrest records

However, under section 160.50(1)(d)(iii) even sealed records are available to:

"any state or local officer or agency with responsibility for the issuance of licenses to possess guns, when the accused has made application for such a license,"

So you will have to deal with the issue whenever you apply for a pistol permit.

First, you need to find out why the judge denied your permit.

Did you disclose the arrest on your application? If not, then the failure to disclose itself is reason enough to deny your permit, even for a "shall issue" home defense permit.

If you disclosed the arrest, then then judge has to have good cause not to issue you a permit for home defense (NY is a "shall issue" state for home defense unless "good cause" is shown for denying the permit.)

Then maybe after 5 years or so you can go back and seek an expanded permit.

Nogods has it right.

But the licensing officer should have provided the reason for the denial. If the charges were dropped you should have been returned to the status you enjoyed prior to the arrest. The judge can see the arrest record but may not have access to the disposition of a juvenile case for a number of reasons. Perhaps the records are even lost. Andd judges are funny when it comes to felony arrests.

An attorney can assist in getting the disposition for you. It may be a good idea to get a certificate of relief of civil disabilities as well. If you PM me I can help you more as we have a very good firearms attorney on staff at PPA. We'll see if we can get you some answers without having to pay. Perhaps if you talk directly to him and explain the circumstances he can advise you on the best course of action.

 

[BC1]

The NY pistol permit application requires the applicant to disclose any arrest. And Penal Law 160.50 makes the arrest information for dismissed cases available to a licensing office with regard to an applicant. Those records are also with regard to any application for employment as a police officer or peace officer.

So the arrest will be something you need to address for the rest of your life. But it isn't something you can't overcome.

My ex had two DWI's and a felony arrest for attempting to obtain a prescription by fraud, and I had a series of protective orders against her. She still got a pistol permit in Erie county after she got clean.

also, you only have 120 days from the date of the denial to file an article 78 proceeding so you need to act quickly.

Correction; CPL 160.50 not PL 160.50. Sorry, didn't mean to be picky. Good advice though.

 

[trophyhunter]

Well, There are several reasons why the judge could of turned you down.

1- Maybe one of your references had something on their record
2- Some Investigating Officers talk to your neighbors and, if they said something bad that would effect your application.
3-Did you Submit an Copy of that Charge and, Disposition from the Agency & Court where you were Charged.
4- Judges Look at the over all picture of yourself( Moral Character) There could of been something in your past that gave the Judge reason to Deny
What I would do from here is Respectfully Request written Explaination as to the reason or, reasons you were denied. From there Once again Respectfuuly Request an Interview with the Judge.
Also, your local Police Department has an big part in your Application Status, For Approval and or, Denial. Call and ask to speak with the Investigating Officer But always remember to be Humble and, Respectfull at all times. I would go through all these steps before contacting an Exspensive Lawyer And keep us posted here there are allot of good poeple here that can help.


Respectfully,
Trophyhunter