Pepper Spray

[GlassWolf]

Every time I've picked up a bottle of 10% Oleoresin Capsicum, it has been 2 million SHU. These are rated for LE use and we had to take a course in using them correctly (yes, I know that sounds stupid).

If you have different volume containers and each container had 10% by volume of the Oleoresin Capsicum, wouldn't that necessitate that they would have the same SHU since there would be the same amount of the "hot stuff" per volume?

a: training makes a lot of sense. Not stupid at all.

b: No. % by volume only tells you how much of the active ingredient is in the bottle. It does not tell you how strong that active ingredient is, and not all OC brands use the same mix in their OC products. I have seen OC rated up to 5.3M SHU. The heat index isn't a direct correlation, or in direct proportion to the % by volume, simply because it only measures the raw amount of ingredient but doesn't detail what that ingredient actually is. This would be like me selling you a pizza with hot peppers (undisclosed type) and saying it has 10% peppers on it.. whereas SHU rating is like selling you a pizza and specifying that it contains Bhut Jolokia peppers as opposed to Habeneros.

 

[wolf_fire]

a: training makes a lot of sense. Not stupid at all.

b: No. % by volume only tells you how much of the active ingredient is in the bottle. It does not tell you how strong that active ingredient is, and not all OC brands use the same mix in their OC products. I have seen OC rated up to 5.3M SHU. The heat index isn't a direct correlation, or in direct proportion to the % by volume, simply because it only measures the raw amount of ingredient but doesn't detail what that ingredient actually is. This would be like me selling you a pizza with hot peppers (undisclosed type) and saying it has 10% peppers on it.. whereas SHU rating is like selling you a pizza and specifying that it contains Bhut Jolokia peppers as opposed to Habeneros.

Thanks for the info. I was not aware of that.

Concerning the training... there isn't much to it. Don't point into the wind, shield your eyes, shake the canister before going on duty, etc. etc. Most of it is common sense (yes, I realize it isn't very common now a days). I didn't mean to downplay that one shouldn't train at all, but that their isn't much to using it properly. "Stupid" was a poor choice of words on my part. Thanks for correcting me. :smile:

 

[PamilaGephart]

I am thinking of getting one.

 

[cullersjr]

There are several possibilities. And both tactical pen or pepper spray or even keys carried correctly can all work. The situational awareness and mind set not to be a victim will help a lot

 

[MDT]

Many peppersprays take practice to take it off "safe" and deploy. It is also smart to practice spraying a few because they are not all created equal. The distance, type of stream, etc. varies. I prefer a gel because of windy conditions.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using USA Carry mobile app

 

[apvbguy]

Many peppersprays take practice to take it off "safe" and deploy.

none of the ones that I've owned had any sort of safety other than needing to pop a top to access the go button

 

[Shockwave]

There's a post on the homepage now titled, 'Why you want to avoid self-defense sprays'.

I think the author is incorrect. Here's why:

1. If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
2. Sometimes, a less-than-lethal option is a good idea.
3. If things are going to come to a physical engagement, why not start things off with the other guy getting maced first?
4. You can carry it in your hand openly - an ASP Defender is on your keyring.
5. Macing somebody has fewer legal repercussions than shooting him.

I could think of more, but that's enough. Here in north Florida, it's fairly common to have some drunken beach person get up in your face and start with the "Gimme $5, man!" line of chatter. Sometimes, you don't want to hit such a person, and you sure as heck don't want to shoot them. A typical self-defense shooting results in around $20K in legal fees, for starters, if you're real lucky.

If you're able to mace somebody down good and vay-cay the premises, that's great. He gets an eye-wash, you go home safe. Everybody happy. You pull a gun, you're going to have to call 911, fill out a report, it gets complicated and the outcome won't be a slam dunk, usually. If you actually shoot somebody, you'll be talking to the DA, lawyers, maybe the perp's friends and family are coming after you, that's not a great outcome. Maybe necessary, but a last resort.

Now, we have a school of thought that says pepper spray, CS spray, doesn't do anything. "I got hit full in the face and it didn't do anything to me!" Some variant on that. To such persons, I say, "Let me hose you down good, all over your eyes, nose, mouth, soak you like a puppy, then we'll play patty cake, see how you do."

I tested my ASP Defender, shot a bit out to see the range, walked into a bit of the after-cloud. Ouch. Just a tinge of the periphery was real bad. Then I discarded that canister, cleaned the unit, loaded a fresh cylinder. After a year or so, I threw out that one, installed a fresh cylinder.

So that takes care of the reliability issue, and I recommend you to follow that methodology. If you're going to carry this, treat it like a firearm, and ensure it is in optimal condition at all times.

Next: Should you even bother with this?

If you think it's a magic bullet, then no. If you are not trained in FoF, H2H, martial arts, then no. If you're likely to deploy it in an open area with the wind blowing into your face, then no. Like a firearm, self-defense spray is a tool that operates within a certain envelope of situations. Not a good idea here, great idea there. Easy to carry on your person. Not seeing many downsides if you understand what it's for and are able to use it effectively at the right time. Potentially, you might even be in a scenario where you mace somebody just to buy enough time to draw your CCW.

 

[Happypuppy]

I agree. The author is incorrect and I disagree on many levels.

OC Spray is effective. The reason it has been largely replaced in many departments by Tasers is simple. Cross contamination and decontamination. It gives you the ability to get away the primary objective if not in law enforcement.

The idea that one is "immune " to a good OC is laughable. It's a physiological response. Your body reacts to it, much like getting soap in your eyes. It's just internet folklore and rumors of someone knew someone. Etc. Can some deal with it better. Perhaps; but the goal is to get away not grapple, arrest an so on.

The use of force flow charts OC is an accepted non lethal deterrent. Stabbing a person with a "tactical pen " has a far higher lethality than OC and does little to help one with what should be the primary task which is to get away

The most important point - knives firearms cannot be used in many locations be they schools courts and other businesses that they may be prohibited. Pepper spray is legal in all 50 states

The recent Seattle Pacific University shooter was brought down by a student RA with the use of pepper spray

 

[Ghost Rider]

Sabre Red pepper spray is pretty good also. I had to use it on a dog across the road from were I live, and it stopped him in his tracks. From that day on when ever that dog sees me, he wont come any were near me.

 

[driz]

I never got to use it but was forced to by policy carry OC for many years. We had to do all the practice drills at least a couple times a year. One thing I can tell you is that those stream sprays are not easy to hit your target with. Personally I much prefer the old mace spray types from back in the 70's. It wasn't as immediately effective but when you sprayed it you surely hit something. To anybody using this newer stream stuff I would urge you to get some of the inert practice spray and try it on someone more than a couple times. After that pull it out every year or less and practice again.
Hitting someone in the eyes with that stream isn't simple period so for best result don't ever threaten an assailant with it. Just spray him and move and hit him a couple more times. Sure it is a nice threat for a cop telling some drunk to get out of a car so he and a couple other guys don't have to drag him out but not for some guy getting ready to get mugged. This stuff is best suited to ambush and when you use it you jump, run move real quick to the side and hopefully away to create distance. Remember well. if you stay put he can still grab you and beat hell out of you. He can hear too and you never really know how much or well you hit him in the eyes and nose. He also may have gotten it before and knew enough to block it or turn his head which is another reason why I like the old SPRAY type. Either way either one consider it just something to buy you time to run away.
CBP always considered it a soft tactic. Passive meaning like restraints and holds. We trained a lot on when not to use it, the usual children and the other time. That's when there is any hint of any weapon. The minute a knife or gun was seen we just grabbed our rubber Sig. period no questions. It's pretty good training because it's easy to keep thinking along that same course of action rather than change degrees of force up or down as needed. Of course it is nothing any civilian should have to deal with so keep it simple, shoot and scoot and whatever you do don't stick around to help the criminal. He might have friends, a knife or a plan, just skedaddle. He isn't going to die.
I really can't say enough about practice with this stuff. Get yourself an inert can and a buddy with a pair of shop safety glasses and have at each other. I can guarantee you won't do nearly as well the first time as you think. It really is fun and will give you or yours the practice they will need if the day ever comes.

 

[Gregmm6]

Thanks for the info. I was not aware of that.

Concerning the training... there isn't much to it. Don't point into the wind, shield your eyes, shake the canister before going on duty, etc. etc. Most of it is common sense (yes, I realize it isn't very common now a days). I didn't mean to downplay that one shouldn't train at all, but that their isn't much to using it properly. "Stupid" was a poor choice of words on my part. Thanks for correcting me. :smile:

Just an FYI, shaking the can isn't necessary any more with modern formulations. It's generally taught that way because the guy doing the training was trained by a guy who shook the can, because he was trained by a guy who shook the can, who was trained by a guy who shook the can.