Ordered to ground at gunpoint for open carrying by cleveland heights ohio police


Midnight

New member
I am new to this forum business, so you will have to excuse the stupid question, but what does it mean when you say "troll"?

A troll is anyone who types something to specifically provoke some sort of emotional or irritable response from other posters on message boards and chat rooms for their own self-amusement. Like if I went into the Concealed Carry sub-forum and make a thread about why "open carry is SOOO much better," that might provoke some people.
 

H

handgonnetoter

Guest
A troll is anyone who types something to specifically provoke some sort of emotional or irritable response from other posters on message boards and chat rooms for their own self-amusement. Like if I went into the Concealed Carry sub-forum and make a thread about why "open carry is SOOO much better," that might provoke some people.

Thanks.:biggrin:
 

PaxMentis

New member
As a guy retired after 20+ years in LE, I have a question for those posters who justify the officers' actions on the basis of "they didn't know if he was carrying legally or not and had to check"...

Can I assume you also have no problem with police stopping you when you have committed no violation to make sure you have a driver's license?

Police have no "right" to stop and detain without reasonable articulable suspicion that you have committed a crime...and, in a place where OC is legal, the mere act of carrying a sidearm does not reach that standard any more than driving a car does. (By the way...for the person who defined "unloaded" in the Peoples' Republic of California as not having any ammo on your person, that is incorrect...you can even be carrying a full magazine...it just cannot be inserted in the weapon)

"GATTOP", or "Going Armed to The Terror..." also requires some purposeful act that would cause fear in the mind of a reasonable person...and courts have consistently found that the mere act of carrying a holstered firearm doesn't meet that standard.

It always amazes me on gun forums and 2A forums that there is always a group of "Second Amendment Supporters" who are convinced that their way is the only way and anyone carrying differently should expect to have their rights trampled...don't you people even see the hypocrisy?

I have carried for just over 35 years now (not counting military time) and the only time I "OC" is when circumstances make it more uncomfortable wear a cover garment than to deal with the reactions of those who are surprised to see a gun. My choice is mostly because I have fought all the battles that I want to fight in my lifetime...but I have the utmost respect for those who do OC and are willing to suffer (and document) the hassles.

:rolleyes:
 

sixgunluvr

New member
LOL you must have not read the last two pages of posts. You can not be stopped for open carrying alone. They can respond to a call of a person with a gun. Come up and ask you what your doing. You have every right not to say anything. Open carrying alone is not reasonable suspicion of wrong doing to justify a stop. Case after case after case has shown this. Do cops still do it? Yes they do. Are they with in the law when doing so? NO they are not. File a suit on the town then file on on the department then file on on the officer him/her self. As for not knowing the laws that's a load of crap. Most departments carry the state Criminal code in the patrol car. I know i have My state Criminal code saved to my computer any and everything i can be arrested for is in it. I want to know why I'm being arrested ( If and when the time comes Never been arrested in my whole life and don't plan on starting now). But some times cops don't follow the full letter of the law. This is my way of calling what they are saying BS and knowing that I'm right. I would hope that all of you would have a copy of your states criminal code.


I agree 100% I follow the 'Law'. If the police choose to ignore their responsibility for knowing the law i'll be more than happy to prove it in court.
 
H

handgonnetoter

Guest
That is why I prefer to CC, I don't attract attention that way from ANYONE. To each his/her own.
 

mappow

New member
OC or CC just give me the right to choose. South Carolina is only CC except to and from a range and or fishing and hunting. Which in MHO is BS to the nth degree. IF I qual to CC, then I should be qual'd to OC. I'll take the consequences for my actions, I always have! Just give me my dam freedom as enumerated in the Constitution / Bill of Rights!

"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." --author and philosopher Ayn Rand (1905-1982)
 

tanker1983

New member
Hmmm... Let's see:

1. Armed man is walking down the street doing nothing illegal whatsoever, in complete compliance with the law.

2. Paranoid, prejudiced "citizen" calls police about a suspicious armed man but with no articulable suspicion of any crime being committed.

3. Police stop the law-abiding armed man, put him on the ground, detain him, disarm him, etc.

I guess I don't see what the debate is. Consider this slight change in the story:

1. Black man is walking down the street doing nothing illegal whatsoever, in complete compliance with the law.

2. Paranoid, prejudiced "citizen" calls police about a suspicious black man but with no articulable suspicion of any crime being committed.

3. Police stop the law-abiding black man, put him on the ground, detain him, disarm him, etc.

Wow--seems a little different now, doesn't it...

Why is detaining a law-abiding citizen because s/he is exercising his/her constitutionally-protected RKBA any more okay than detaining a law-abiding black man simply for walking down the street? Because of some other "citizen's" prejudicial "fear" or "suspicion"?

Whether the OP was seeking the confrontation or not is completely beside the point--so were the marchers in Selma. So were the black people who sat down at the dime-store lunch counters in the South. So was Rosa Parks. And you know what people said about them? "They're just seeking a confrontation." "They just pushing buttons to make trouble." "They're causing the problems themselves." "They're just uppity."

Well, maybe it's about time a few more of us who believe in the RKBA and the protections of the 2A get a little "uppity" too!


Probably the most articulate and relevant post of the entire thread. Well done. This post REALLY opened my eyes. Thanks...
 

tanker1983

New member
This may not make me popular, but of course the officers were right. To my knowkedge, the NRA only recognizes one circumstance where you surrender your piece, no questions, and that is at the request of a duly-appointed Law Enforcement Officer. Every NRA class I have taken has stressed this; black, white, myob, taking a stroll, doesn't matter: if an LE requests you surrender your weapon, do as directed. Be polite, and save the Constitutional rants for the OP ED page.

There are also certain areas illegal to carry in: Indian Reservations, Forestry Land, bars and restaurants that sell alcohol, and any place else you are requested to remove it from. If you bring a gun ion my house, you will be asked to remove it from the premises or place it in my custody while you are here. I and I alone carry a pistol in my home, and it is up to my discretion whether to enforce that or not. However, if I do, comply or leave. As far as I am concerned, refusing to disarm in my home or vehicle places me in a life-and-death situation. A twelve-year=old "Crip" wannabe tried to "make his bones (kill someone)" on me in my house one time during a neighborhood gettogether. Someone else saw him about to stab me, and dragged him away. The only way I even learned of it was that I found the knife they took from him, and, not recognizing it, asked questions until I finally got the whole story. "Don't tell Kevin" was pretty much the rule of thumb in situations like that, as most people mistook me for a "shoot first, ask questions later" type. The truth is, I have carried a pistol since age 16 (I'm 54 now) almost all the time, and, though I have had to pull it on several occassions, I have yet to find it necessary to fire. When dealing with LE, my SOP is to tell them I am carrying and ask if they would prefer to hold it during our encounter. Generaslly, they take it, run the numbers and me, and return it, often in the same Condition One (loaded, cocked, and locked) as I surrendered it in.

Word travels like lightening in the LE field, and more often than not, the officer tells me just to keep it holstered for the time being. Granted, one group of LEOs confiscated my .40 Taurus; I had to go to court to get it back, and when I did, they had broken the firing pin. But there were six of them and one of me, and the law was on their side (sic). Perhaps things did not go as they should have that day, but I am alive and well with my gun rights intact; that says something to me about the wisdom of politely complying. I know for a fact these officers, with whom I had had repeated encounteres with, akin to a "turf war", had no reservations about blowing me away. They tried everything short of planting evidence to get me on a felony charge, and when it became evident that was not going to happen, they tried to provoke me into a lopsided gun battle. I spent a night in jail on some trumped-up charge, which was dismissed immediately next morning, and am still around to tell of it. If a cop requests you to surrender your firearm, shut up and follow directions. My copy of the Constitution is not bullet-proof. screrw your rights; stay alive! Thank you.

KBV


Man. I am SO HAPPY I live a VERY BORING, PLAIN life...
 

MissouriShooter

New member
I live in one of the 90+ cities in St. Louis County, Missouri. The City of STL is not included in the county. The laws for Open Carry are different in each of the cities; about half permit it.

I've been CC'ing for a couple years now, and just recently discovered that my city of residence is one of those which permits OC. It never occurred to me to check before noiw.

I won't OC here for a number of reasons.

1. I've lived here for twenty-plus years and I know how people would react if they saw "a man with a gun" walking down the street or into one of the stores here. I have no intention of disturbing their lives just to prove a point or declare my lawful rights, when I can just as easily carry my PF-9 or Glock 26 in an IWB under an untucked shirt tail or t-shirt. I'll still be protecting myself and they'll never know. In fact, I performed a wedding this afternoon. None of the assembled multitude had any idea their Reverend was "packing" an evil black gun chock full of 9mm yumminess.

2. I see no reason to attract the attention of the local police, most of whom do not know that this city even allows OC. My experience is that most local LEO's know just enough of their municipality's laws to effectively control traffic, stop drunk drivers and call in for assistance if the situation gets out of hand. No offense intended, but most local cops are not lawyers nor do they have a book of local laws easily at hand. They just try to contain and control any given out-of-hand sitiuation.

3. I've always believed that the most visible threats will be the first threats minimized by bad guys. I learned that in the Army and decided I never wanted to be the guy carrying the M79. If I'm in a bank or a retail outlet suddenly invaded by gun-wielding thugs, they'll be looking for anyone who might pose a threat to their plan. They see a holster and a handgun on my hip, I'm a target. If I can keep my CC secret, I might have a chance to survive if I have to shoot to stop a threat to my life.

So, please, folks, drop the bravado, put your cell phone and Flip cams back into your pocket and quit antagonizing the LEO's who are really working on an impossible task that may become, in the months ahead, even more impossible: keeping the peace. Understand that the cops are as scared as you are of facing off with some nut with a gun.

2A is an important issue, but swaggering around with an AK47 "pistol" in a jerry-rigged holster or sling is really pretty stupid. Buy yourself an IWB holster, get a CC license, take some classes and relax.
 

Midnight

New member
Blah, blah, blah. Virtues of open carry vs. why open carry is stupid. I get it.

The point is that the OP was brought to the ground despite him practicing a legal right.

/thread
 
I live in one of the 90+ cities in St. Louis County, Missouri. The City of STL is not included in the county. The laws for Open Carry are different in each of the cities; about half permit it.

I've been CC'ing for a couple years now, and just recently discovered that my city of residence is one of those which permits OC. It never occurred to me to check before noiw.

I won't OC here for a number of reasons.

1. I've lived here for twenty-plus years and I know how people would react if they saw "a man with a gun" walking down the street or into one of the stores here. I have no intention of disturbing their lives just to prove a point or declare my lawful rights, when I can just as easily carry my PF-9 or Glock 26 in an IWB under an untucked shirt tail or t-shirt. I'll still be protecting myself and they'll never know. In fact, I performed a wedding this afternoon. None of the assembled multitude had any idea their Reverend was "packing" an evil black gun chock full of 9mm yumminess.

2. I see no reason to attract the attention of the local police, most of whom do not know that this city even allows OC. My experience is that most local LEO's know just enough of their municipality's laws to effectively control traffic, stop drunk drivers and call in for assistance if the situation gets out of hand. No offense intended, but most local cops are not lawyers nor do they have a book of local laws easily at hand. They just try to contain and control any given out-of-hand sitiuation.

3. I've always believed that the most visible threats will be the first threats minimized by bad guys. I learned that in the Army and decided I never wanted to be the guy carrying the M79. If I'm in a bank or a retail outlet suddenly invaded by gun-wielding thugs, they'll be looking for anyone who might pose a threat to their plan. They see a holster and a handgun on my hip, I'm a target. If I can keep my CC secret, I might have a chance to survive if I have to shoot to stop a threat to my life.

So, please, folks, drop the bravado, put your cell phone and Flip cams back into your pocket and quit antagonizing the LEO's who are really working on an impossible task that may become, in the months ahead, even more impossible: keeping the peace. Understand that the cops are as scared as you are of facing off with some nut with a gun.

2A is an important issue, but swaggering around with an AK47 "pistol" in a jerry-rigged holster or sling is really pretty stupid. Buy yourself an IWB holster, get a CC license, take some classes and relax.
+1 well put. thank you
 

Boomboy007

New member
Sorry, I will exercise my rights as they are written.

Many keep stating that they will not open carry for a myriad of reasons; that is their right. However, their very next statements tend to be reasons why everyone else should voluntarily abdicate their rights, again for a myriad of reasons.

I, for one, believe that we have abdicated far too many of the rights that were reserved us by our founders, and I say NOT ONE MORE. Rather than hide my legally carried firearm because it might offend the sensibilities of some uninformed citizen or overzealous law enforcement officer, I say let them get a good look. Let them see it every day, a hundred times a day, until they are inured to the sight. Let openly carried firearms become as commonly as worn as shoes or jackets. If an LEO is ignorant of the law, that is THEIR problem. Do not infringe upon my rights in order that they may continue an inadequate training program for their officers.

Moreover, let small video cameras become as numerous as the stars in the sky. Let every private citizen on public property be free to film what and when they like. There is NO better way to ensure the professionalism of the "public servants" than to let them know that they are on record. I do NOT believe that the government has the same right, and should, therefore, be tightly monitored regarding who, what, and where they can record private citizens. The state is here to serve the people, not the other way around.

Incidentally, those of you who, like MissouriShooter above, believe that it is the job of LEO to "keep the peace", please do a little research. They job of Law Enforcement in this country is to investigate crimes and apprehend criminals. NOWHERE is it written that they are responsible for ANYONE'S protection:

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As long as someone is exercising their rights legally, you won't hear me complain.
 

Nightmare45

NRA LIFE MEMBER
While I am licensed to carry concealed in Texas and a buch of other states thank God, my personal opinion is you should be able to open carry if you wish, some of the open carry laws are very stupid ie: California, why carry an unloaded gun on you hip, while I am quite skilled in handgun use having the clips on the other side of the belt, you might as well carry a club (most likely cannot do this in CA). My suggestion is for all the good honest folks to get togeather and QUIT spending your money and time in any state that does not allow you to protect yourself, I re-scheduled my vacation from CA to AZ for just this reason, CA does not want my money, final statement while I think you should be able to carry in the open, if you are shot dead by a misinformed LO, you have not won the argument.

Push for open carry and legal carry Nationwide.
 
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Mudinyeri

New member
I have no idea what the OP's original intent was in recording video of this encounter with law enforcement. None of us do. He is the only one who knows whether or not he was trying to provoke a response. We also don't know if there were individuals in the neighborhood who had called the police to report that they had seen someone with a gun. There is a lot we don't know about the situation.

I'm interested in another line of discussion around open carry - safety. For those who open carry in densely populated or high-crime areas, what precautions have you taken to ensure your own safety and that of others? Do you carry in a Level 2 or Level 3 holster to aid in retention? Have you sought out training for weapon retention? Do you know what to do if someone grabs at or removes your weapon from its holster?

I went through some training in the Army where we learned and practiced techniques for disarming people. It's not that difficult to do if you know what you're doing. How do you prepare for that possibility?

I regularly open carry on my farm but am not sure I would feel comfortable doing so in a densely populated area where I have very little personal space.
 
While I am licensed to carry concealed in Texas and a buch of other states thank God, my personal opinion is you should be able to open carry if you wish, some of the open carry laws are very stupid ie: California, why carry an unloaded gun on you hip, while I am quite skilled in handgun use having the clips on the other side of the belt, you might as well carry a club (most likely cannot do this in CA). My suggestion is for all the good honest folks to get togeather and QUIT spending your money and time in any state that does not allow you to protect yourself, I re-scheduled my vacation from CA to AZ for just this reason, CA does not want my money, final statement while I think you should be able to carry in the open, if you are shot dead by a misinformed LO, you have not won the argument.

Push for open carry and legal carry Nationwide.

FYI
The detachable magazine is often referred to as a clip; such usage is frowned upon by many authorities on firearms
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You carry how ever you want. I will carry what ever way I want.
I happen to prefer California over Arizona.
I never go on vacation so I can walk around with a pistol on my waist that yells, "look at me". I could continue, but, why bother? There are those who do, and those who don't.
Enough said.
 

Nightmare45

NRA LIFE MEMBER
The iceman failed to understand what I said, I personally carry concealed, but respect the right to carry in the open, I am rather old and really don't care weather you call it a clip or magazine, my choice of words, I am well aware of the requirement to be mindful of what folks think, If you like the restrictions imposed on you by the state of CA then enjoy them, I respect the law and when I have travel I inform myself the the requirements, I will however no longer spend my money in any state where I cannot defend myself by whatever means, the criminal does not give a damn about the law, hence the word criminal or illegal, call the cops in CA sit and wait for the guy with the chalk to show up and explain to your family and kids where the cops were, the police in every state in the union are not sworn to protect the individual. God Bless you and spend your money where you wish. Peace and Love.
 
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-06

New member
Am on the East coast but I have spent my last penny in kalifornicate. Their condemnation of Arizona's laws are more than enough to keep me from supporting them with one cent. Some do not seem to care about things like that.
 

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