Opinions on mixed loads.

D

Dennis M

New member
I recently read a three page article from a self professed Medical Examiner. He was discussing the mortality of victims depending on size, type of load, area of penetration, etc. I have a 9mm & a 40 Cal, both loaded with Hornady Critical Defense Hollow-points when not using for target practice. A few things to think about and worth mentioning are the following.
1. Most deaths from 9mm, probably due to it's popularity.
2. Most deadly with fewest shots were heavier loads, larger caliber loads.
3. He pointed out that plinking and shooting into ballistic gel do not mimic the bullets path inside a human body.
4. Regular (round or pointed heads) most lethal if striking bone or dense tissue, if they have the velocity to penetrate, rather than being deflected.
5. Hollow points cause most damage if entering or striking vital organs and soft tissue, not so well with bone except larger calibers.
6. Death from smallest caliber was one bb shot through eyeball. Caused brain hemorrhage.
7. Majority of deaths required more than one shot.

The question I pose is this. We are taught, whenever possible to aim and strike center mass. This is the collarbone, rib cage, sternum area and possibly an arm if in a defensive stance. Should we trust completely one type load for self defense or should we alternate hollow points and straight loads to increase success of a dropping or mortal injury? Interested in hearing your opinions.
 
In my 9 i load hollow and powerball mix. Powerballs are absolutely the best when they operate as designed but not completely reliable on as designed factor. When they fail they act like a very fast ball ammo.
 
Your defensive loads should be consistent in grains and performance. The loads you use on the range should mimic the bullet weight of your defensive load. Consistency and shot placement are key's to ending a threat. Once your first load splits the sternum, the next few round into the area will send fragments of bone and possible the first bullet into the body cavity. You cannot adequately control your shot placements if your loads differ. IMO - By having different loads in your gun post shooting, will cause unnecessary scrutiny and may be grounds for a prosecutor to use that against you in terms of determining to charge or not charge you.
 
Purple said:
Your defensive loads should be consistent in grains and performance. The loads you use on the range should mimic the bullet weight of your defensive load. Consistency and shot placement are key's to ending a threat. Once your first load splits the sternum, the next few round into the area will send fragments of bone and possible the first bullet into the body cavity. You cannot adequately control your shot placements if your loads differ. IMO - By having different loads in your gun post shooting, will cause unnecessary scrutiny and may be grounds for a prosecutor to use that against you in terms of determining to charge or not charge you.
Click to expand...
That is why you can get .45ACP in 230gr FMJ and JHP.
 
I carry a mix of lead round nose and hollow point in one of my mags for my .22 and i carry a mix of FMJ and JHP for my .38 special not in the revoler but i have 2 speed loads for it. i keep JHP in it when i carry it so if i need FMJ i have them.
 
Center of mass doesn't necessarily mean the torso only, but the COM of what ever is presented. If the bad guys leg is showing from behind cover, it's the COM of the leg.

That being said, I only carry hollow points. They get me to my rifle or shotgun.
 
Like apv said 2 CM and 1 to the head will usually stop any threat. If you're not confident in a shot to the head a pelvic shot will stop them from advancing. Ever see someone try and walk with a shattered pelvis?
 
Retired trauma nurse here. Consider the anatomy. The upper torso contains lungs, heart and major blood vessels. GSW's in this area are going to do some nasty damage. Below them in the abdomen are hollow organs, liver, spleen, pancreas, stomach, intestines. Hits in these areas are nasty, but wont slow an aggressor as much. The spinal column and central nervous system are in a separate compartment to the rear. Hitting the spinal column, the higher the better, is one of the fastest ways to stop an aggressor. If neatness counts, you can bleed to death internally in the chest, abdomen, and thighs. All head wound bleed like stink because there is an abundance of small vessels in the soft tissue. Usually much messier than dangerous, unless you penetrate the skull or hit the major vessels in either side of the neck. In the ER we just classify GSW's as small bore, large bore, or shotgun, and try to track the bullets path. Bouncing of bones is a real wild card. One patient was hit in the chest by a .38. There was no exit wound so we just kept doing xrays until we found the slug. It came to rest in his inner thigh just left of his manhood. A quick incision retrieved it. Figuring out the path and the damage it did was a puzzle we left for the trauma surgeon.
Me? If I must stop an aggressor, my first choice will be the upper, center chest. Don't want to kill somebody, but don't want somebody to kill me neither. Hope this helps. Long ago lost count of the GSW's I'd seen. Every one is different. Paul, RN
 
I am in agreement with point 1-7. In the past I have used mixed loads in my 9mm. The first two rounds were shot shells followed by JHP's. Shot shells first because I did not want to tear up the walls in the house and JHP to get the job done if the person doing the home invasion was still stupid enough to be around after the first shots were fired. I was in the guns shop and one of the coroners came in looking for bullets of the type that he pulled from body of an autopsy he performed. The gun shop owner handed him a box of Federal Hydra-Shok 9MM. To this day in my ammo can you will still find Federal Hydra Shok and Remington Golden Saber.
 
The Evolution of My Opinion on the Caliber Issue & the Choice Gun to Carry

When I first started carrying, I went with the 9mm round. While the issue was clearly debatable, it seemed that the three major calibers had similar abilities to stop the threat. The results in ballistic gel were certainly similar, and the one-shot-stop records suggested the 9mm wasn't too far behind the historic 'man stopper' cartridges. 45 ACP & 357 Magnum. My research also uncovered countless references to the obvious that any caliber was better than the gun left in the safe because it was too uncomfortable to carry.

So, my first CCW was a 9mm. The decision was based both on the ease of carrying a 9mm as well as a belief in the adequacy of the cartridge. However, I'll admit that I frequently carried a 380 because even the 9mm seemed too uncomfortable much of the time.

It wasn't long before I made the decision to add a polymer gun to the CCW collection, but decided to ramp up to the 40 S&W. It was a good compromise for a long time.

The key word is "compromise". The compromise isn't just about comfort of carry vs. stopping power, there's a third factor that's equally critical: shoot-ability. IMHO, shoot-ability refers to how easy is the gun to shoot both accurately and quickly.

It's a given that factors that make a gun comfortable to carry also make it more challenging to shoot well, especially at combat speeds. The other factors that are critical to the shoot-ability of a gun are the ergonomics and trigger. Especially the trigger. It's a given that it's easier to be both fast and accurate with a good SAO trigger than a long, heavier DAO trigger, or even the ubiquitous 'safe action' polymer trigger.

Back to calibers. While the 9mm penetrates ballistic gel just as well as the larger calibers, the lighter round is more easily deflected, or possibly even stopped by something dense like bone than the 45 ACP round that's twice as heavy. I also discovered during several side-by-side comparison tests, that the recoil of the 45 was more pleasant than the 40, which leads to more practice with my CCW.

The conclusion? My primary an all-metal EDC is a 45, and the BUG is polymer 45.
 
Hey Dennis,
Just had to thank you for introducing me to a really interesting topic.

I've been shooting for about 12 yrs but didnt own my own gun until last year (bc I was carrying my dad's)- and that was when I started reading up on material. I Carried mixed loads bt hp and FMJs bc- by technicalities of my load alone- I was hoping that the FMJ would be "warning"/less lethal shots while hp was vice versa- and in the meantime- on MY end- id be defending myself & my kids- by shooting in vital areas. This newbie (me) didnt know about mixed loads. (<- so thnx for pointing me towards that)

A question I have- is statement #3 where ballistics gel does not mimic behavior of bullet penetrating body & organs--- but how about that "energy" (is that correct term?) from the bullet that creates the cavity we see in the slo mo cam- is that at least accurate? (Given- that this doc knows what he's talking about) - bc if so... Wouldn't that toss around our organs quite a bit?

Courtney
 
Firefighterchen said:
Center of mass doesn't necessarily mean the torso only, but the COM of what ever is presented. If the bad guys leg is showing from behind cover, it's the COM of the leg.

That being said, I only carry hollow points. They get me to my rifle or shotgun.
Click to expand...
You are correct, it's center of visible mass that you shoot.
 
"good shot placement trumps caliber and bullet size every time"

Agreed. You can load the most lethal rhinoceros bullet in your gun, but if you miss me I'm still dangerous. And if you only hit my left arm or spare tire fat on the side, I'm still liable to be dangerous. But put a .22 LR in my forehead and I'm done fighting, ga-ron-teed.

Now, if you can always hit CM with your .44 Mag or .45 HP, then it makes for a faster stop, right? But that's only for those of you who can do that, on targets that may or may not be partly hidden or moving.
 
Remember were talking bullet type (hollow vs fmj) and mixing them because of soft tissue, dense tissue, and bone differences. We aren't taking caliber.
 
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