open carry WalMart

[BuddhaKat]

To be clear the OP didn't make it clear that he was in uniform or clearly identifiable as a cop when he approached the guy, that came later.

I go on guard when approached by a cop because I don't know why he is approaching me when I find out what his reasoning is I adjust my posture

If I'm not doing anything illegal/wrong then I have no reason to be on guard at the sight of a LEO. If the SHTF I'd be the first person wanting a LEO to be around. Translation=Good Guy. I see a cop, I'm of the frame of mind that I'm seeing a friendly. Now if he/she gives me a reason to think otherwise, I'll switch. You see confrontation first, good guy second. I could understand that if you were approached by a gangsta painted from head to toe in prison tats, but a cop is a good guy first until proven otherwise.

Now some might think me foolish and naive, and they could be right. I dunno. I don't go on alert when a black guy walks into the room either. I guess I'm destined to be a victim.

 

[BuddhaKat]

When a cop interacts with us he does a quick ... bad guy or good guy or arsehole good guy... assessment and adjusts his attitude/actions accordingly. It would be wise for us to do the same when we interact with a cop.

To do otherwise, for both cops and us, is foolish.

I try to use that philosophy everywhere I go, no matter who I meet.

 

[Treo]

If I'm not doing anything illegal/wrong then I have no reason to be on guard at the sight of a LEO. If the SHTF I'd be the first person wanting a LEO to be around. Translation=Good Guy. I see a cop, I'm of the frame of mind that I'm seeing a friendly. Now if he/she gives me a reason to think otherwise, I'll switch. You see confrontation first, good guy second. I could understand that if you were approached by a gangsta painted from head to toe in prison tats, but a cop is a good guy first until proven otherwise.

Now some might think me foolish and naive, and they could be right. I dunno. I don't go on alert when a black guy walks into the room either. I guess I'm destined to be a victim.

When a cop approaches some one open carrying it's generally not just to shoot the breeze. It's usually in conjunction with a MWAG gun call. That alone should be enough to get your guard up.

I think this is one of those things that you either do get or don't get and if you don't nothing but a bad experience with a cop is going to change your mind.

 

[njsportsman]

Good gracious is this USA Carry not English class. I don't pay too much attention to grammar mistakes when I post because I am usually posting and moving on. I never had this much of an issue. Again this is a forum mainly about the art of carry firearms and not English class.

I am not a fan of cops busting on honest citizens carrying firearms and yes one would originally take the offensive but, the guy sounds like he was generally sincere. There are good LEO's that support our right to carry like the group of sheriffs that said they would not enforce some of these new laws so, cut the guy a break.

Remember we don’t want people to judge our actions or our right to keep and bear arms because of the actions of the people who misuse them. The same can be said about good cop and bad cop.

 

[packinprincess]

keeping it Brief aplologies for missspellings etc my lap top is old yet still functions for the most part, however some times it will miss a letter because I dont hit the key hard enough. But Enough of that. My whole intent of the post was that it was a positive experience. I was in plain clothes but it would not take a rocket scientist to know that I was leo. The car with the lights and Badge makes it hard to hide it. I had a very pleasant 15 minute conversation with him after he introduced him self. Again I was very friendly and nonjudgmental. I for one and just my opinion do not care how some one carries as long as it is done legally. There are advantages to both methods and they I wont get into that. Again I just wanted to comment on how sad it is that law abiding armed citizens are on the offence

I long for the day that the majority of officers think like you. Thanks for sharing. You brought tears to my eyes.

 

[Sir Diealotz]

This thread had potential of being interesting..??? But its more of a grammar lesson.JMO

Me thinks you are correct.

WCD...

I've had a few conversations with people about my side arm. All good so far and very cordial. Most here in KY are very friendly and pro gun so that helps.

 

[BuddhaKat]

When a cop approaches some one open carrying it's generally not just to shoot the breeze. It's usually in conjunction with a MWAG gun call. That alone should be enough to get your guard up.

I think this is one of those things that you either do get or don't get and if you don't nothing but a bad experience with a cop is going to change your mind.

I guess I'm fortunate to live in an area where our cops support our right to carry. If 911 got a MWAG call, the operator would likely let the caller know there's no law prohibiting carrying in NV. Is he brandishing the weapon? Holding anyone up? Appear drunk or on drugs? Not doing anything other than shopping? Not breaking the law. In the event someone did respond, I still wouldn't go on guard. What the hell would I do, puff out my chest? I'll tell ya what I'd do, I'd comply with everything the cop asked me to do, without hesitation, without argument. To do ANYTHING other than that would simply guarantee getting arrested. Should I be a smart ass? Try to tell the cop what the law is? Just exactly what good would that do?

Here's what I would think though. The cop is responding to a call. That's what they're supposed to do. I'm not breaking the law. That's what I'm supposed to do. Since I'm not breaking the law I have nothing to fear from someone wanting to enforce the law. Thus, we meet as friends. Furthermore, I think it's the cops duty to protect my right to lawfully carry a gun. He's not there to harass me, he's there to protect me too, after all, I'm one of the good guys.

So what happens if I encounter a bad cop? I'd comply with everything the cop asked me to do, without hesitation, without argument. To do ANYTHING other than that would simply guarantee getting arrested. If the cop violated my rights, I'd take it up with his department. After all, our cops are overwhelmingly good cops. And the next cop I met on the street whilst I have my 45 strapped to my side, well I'm going to start off assuming he, or she, is a good guy.

 

[jcreek]

When a cop approaches some one open carrying it's generally not just to shoot the breeze. It's usually in conjunction with a MWAG gun call. That alone should be enough to get your guard up.

I think this is one of those things that you either do get or don't get and if you don't nothing but a bad experience with a cop is going to change your mind.

I guess I'm fortunate to live in an area where our cops support our right to carry. If 911 got a MWAG call, the operator would likely let the caller know there's no law prohibiting carrying in NV. Is he brandishing the weapon? Holding anyone up? Appear drunk or on drugs? Not doing anything other than shopping? Not breaking the law. In the event someone did respond, I still wouldn't go on guard. What the hell would I do, puff out my chest? I'll tell ya what I'd do, I'd comply with everything the cop asked me to do, without hesitation, without argument. To do ANYTHING other than that would simply guarantee getting arrested. Should I be a smart ass? Try to tell the cop what the law is? Just exactly what good would that do?

Here's what I would think though. The cop is responding to a call. That's what they're supposed to do. I'm not breaking the law. That's what I'm supposed to do. Since I'm not breaking the law I have nothing to fear from someone wanting to enforce the law. Thus, we meet as friends. Furthermore, I think it's the cops duty to protect my right to lawfully carry a gun. He's not there to harass me, he's there to protect me too, after all, I'm one of the good guys.

So what happens if I encounter a bad cop? I'd comply with everything the cop asked me to do, without hesitation, without argument. To do ANYTHING other than that would simply guarantee getting arrested. If the cop violated my rights, I'd take it up with his department. After all, our cops are overwhelmingly good cops. And the next cop I met on the street whilst I have my 45 strapped to my side, well I'm going to start off assuming he, or she, is a good guy.

I agree with most of what you said however I have met more than one officer that honestly doesn't know the law. In that case, I see no issue with politely and cordial educating him as to what the law is, especially if you can cite certain statutes. Now if he still doesn't believe you, he's probably a bad cop and there's not much you can do. If you argue, you go to jail. If you don't argue you still might go to jail (albeit shortly.) Unfortunately qualified immunity protects cops against false arrest suits if they acted in good faith, and I see more and more departments accepting ignorance of the law and even downright stupidity as cutting it for "good faith." Unless you can prove the officer acted with malice there's not much you can do.

 

[Treo]

Maybe instead of “defensive” I should have said “cautious”.

When I interact with a cop I follow these simple rules every time

1. If you are pulled over by a cop, unless you are legally required to do so or you know (I.E. you are about to get patted down he's going to find your weapon do not inform the cop that you are armed (this assumes you are, of course, legally armed)
2. Make the cop tell you why he pulled you over (I.E. Do you know why I pulled you over tonight Mr. Potential detainee? “No Officer I haven’t a clue please tell me.
3. When he tells you why he pulled you over do not argue (I.E. Ok officer I’ll take my ticket now”) you can fight it in court later.
4. Never ever, ever, ever consent to a search. Ever if they tell you they’ll get a warrant tell them to go for it.
5. Under no circumstances answer questions or make a statement of any kind without your lawyer present.
6. A traffic stop’s a given, they pull you over your not free to go other than that as soon as they contact you ask. If they say you are free to go, go if they say you’re not ask for your lawyer and shut up.
7. Never make small talk with a cop (I.E. ‘where are you coming from tonight Mr. Potential detainee?’ “From conducting my lawful private business officer, am I free to go?”). Cops don’t make small talk.

If you’re just walking down the street and a cop stops you, you should immediately ascertain whether or not you’re free to leave. The easiest way to do this is simply ask the cop “Officer am I free to go?” If he says you are do it.

Cops don’t just stop random people on the street to make conversation, if he stopped you there’s a reason and the worst thing you can do is engage him in conversation because the longer you talk the more likely you are to say something he can use against you. So, it goes like this

Cop: excuse me Buck can I ask you a couple of questions?
Treo: Sorry Officer I really don’t have time right now. Am I free to go?
Cop: It’s really just a couple of quick questions; I would really help me out if you cooperate.
Treo: Officer, as I stated I do not have time to speak with you. Am I free to go?
Cop: Yes you can leave, but it would really help me…
Treo: Thank you Officer good day.

If a cop ever tells you you’re not free to go that means he has a reasonable suspicion based on clearly articuable facts, that you have, in fact, committed a crime and is looking for probable cause to arrest you. (If he had PC you’d all ready be in handcuffs)
This is absolutely the time to calmly and firmly assert your rights and shut up!

Cop: No buck you are not free to go I’m detaining you because….
Treo: Officer I don’t wish to answer any questions or make any statement w/out my lawyer present.
Cop: Buck right now is the time for you to be cooperating with me; it’ll go much easier for you if you do.
Treo: Officer I don’t wish to answer any questions or make any statement w/out my lawyer present.
Cop: Yada Yada Yada
Treo: Officer I don’t wish to answer any questions or make any statement w/out my lawyer present.

Get the picture?
You and the Police
Kenneth W. Royce (Writing as Boston T. Party)
Javelin Press 2006


follow these simple rules every time you interact with a cop and we won’t have any more of these threads I promise

 

[Deserteagle]

Here we go again with the "never talk to police" crap...

Cop: Excuse me sir can I ask you a few questions?
Citizen: I dont have time. Am I free to go?
Cop: Well sure but I wanted to ask you if you've seen this murder suspect around here
Citizen: I dont wish to answer any questions without my lawyer. Am I free to go?
....

Ya that's good advice to never talk to police I suppose....

 

[av8r]

On a motorcycle forum I used to frequent, there was a member who had a signature that I liked. It was something like this: "Treat everyone with dignity and respect, but have a plan to kill them just in case."

 

[BuddhaKat]

If a cop stopped you for any reason other than to chat about news, weather and sports, they're probably not going to do it without a good reason. Personally, I don't have any problems talking to cops cause I don't have anything to worry about. I'm not likely to be a suspect in any criminal endeavor because I'm not about to knowingly break the law. "No Guns Allowed" carries no weight in law here, unless it's a govt. building. Other than that, the worst that can happen to me is that a store owner or manager didn't want me and my gun in their store and they enlisted a cop to let me know. I'd just be told that I gotta leave and I would do so without a problem.

Hide the fact that you're carrying until the very last second? Are you nucking futz? As soon as a leo knows he's come into contact with a lac in possession, he's going to know you're not likely to be up to anything no good. Who would risk their CCW?? Plus, cops here like lac's in possession. They say it helps to keep the violent crime rate down.

 

[Bikenut]

If a cop stopped you for any reason other than to chat about news, weather and sports, they're probably not going to do it without a good reason. Personally, I don't have any problems talking to cops cause I don't have anything to worry about. I'm not likely to be a suspect in any criminal endeavor because I'm not about to knowingly break the law. "No Guns Allowed" carries no weight in law here, unless it's a govt. building. Other than that, the worst that can happen to me is that a store owner or manager didn't want me and my gun in their store and they enlisted a cop to let me know. I'd just be told that I gotta leave and I would do so without a problem.

Hide the fact that you're carrying until the very last second? Are you nucking futz? As soon as a leo knows he's come into contact with a lac in possession, he's going to know you're not likely to be up to anything no good. Who would risk their CCW?? Plus, cops here like lac's in possession. They say it helps to keep the violent crime rate down.

This forum involves posters from many different States so folks tend to speak from their personal perspective of the laws from their own State. But different States have different laws. There are States where it is required to immediately disclose being armed and having a carry permit to an officer and there are States that have no such requirement.

For example... Michigan requires a permit holder who is armed to immediately disclose he is armed and has a permit when stopped by an officer.

Which means if a person has a permit but ISN'T armed he is not required to disclose. Also it means an armed permit holder has to be "stopped" by an officer... which means if a cop comes up and starts a "conversation" but the person is not "stopped" (detained) he is not required to disclose.

That is just how Michigan's law works... I am not familiar with all the laws from all the States so I try very hard not to assume someone from another State has to obey the same laws I do.

However.... personally... Quite often our local Chief of Police drives through the neighborhood and I'll go out and talk about everyday stuff with him for a while ... but if I am armed and there is any hint of any doubt in my mind whether I'm being "stopped/detained", by any officer including the Chief, instead of just having an ordinary talk about everyday stuff... I'll disclose.

Link Removed

 

[Treo]

My previous post was probably a little much for this discussion.

What I’m trying to communicate is that if a police officer approaches me and I’m unsure as to why then I should proceed with caution until I know why he is approaching me because in my experience it’s a whole lot easier to talk yourself into handcuffs than it is to talk your self out of them.

And, because I live in Colorado Springs (where the city is about to pay out a rather large settlement because they wrongfully arrested an open carrier), I would be very cautious if a police officer approached me while I was open carrying.

 

[Firefighterchen]

Here we go again with the "never talk to police" crap...

Cop: Excuse me sir can I ask you a few questions?
Citizen: I dont have time. Am I free to go?
Cop: Well sure but I wanted to ask you if you've seen this murder suspect around here
Citizen: I dont wish to answer any questions without my lawyer. Am I free to go?
....

Ya that's good advice to never talk to police I suppose....

Why would a cop be asking round about questions about a murder suspect? Wouldn't it go like this...

Officer: Hello, I'm Officer Eagle, we are searching for a murder suspect, have you seen this person?

OC: No I have not.

Officer: thank you.

To me, if the intentions of the officer aren't clear right up front, chances are they aren't asking for help, but fishing.

 

[Rocketgeezer]

OMG dude, paragraphs please.

Haveing been accused of this very violation myself, I simply repete what I said then, I am sure everybody here understood what he was trying to say, even if he did not have the proper typed grammer, we are not being graded in school, so WRGAF

 

[BuddhaKat]

My previous post was probably a little much for this discussion.

What I’m trying to communicate is that if a police officer approaches me and I’m unsure as to why then I should proceed with caution until I know why he is approaching me because in my experience it’s a whole lot easier to talk yourself into handcuffs than it is to talk your self out of them.

And, because I live in Colorado Springs (where the city is about to pay out a rather large settlement because they wrongfully arrested an open carrier), I would be very cautious if a police officer approached me while I was open carrying.

You make my point. It's not the majority of cops, it's the occasional bad apple. You cite an instance of a single cop but the premise of your discussion in this and your other thread is that any cop approaching you is going to have infringing your rights on his mind. Most cops are strong supporters of the 2A. Therefore, most cops that approach you while staring at your gun are a 'friendly'. Every cop I've encountered while carrying has adamantly thanked me for openly carrying.

Most cops cops are trained to watch body language. It won't take an expert to recognize the difference between my smile and pleasant demeanor and your piercing stare and guarded conversation. You're gonna set off alarms even though they, (the cops), have nothing to be alarmed about. You're going to pique their curiosity and put them into the "How can I legally justify further inquiry" mode. I put them into the "I'd like to buy him a beer sometime" frame of mind.

Not saying you don't have a right to keep your business to yourself. You certainly do. But it's one of those honey/vinegar things. Human nature, and cops are human too, is to want to associate with like minded people. Good guys hang with good guys. Bad guys with bad guys. If you're a good guy but you're guarded and evasive when approached by a person who's job it is to weed out the bad guys, he's going to get the wrong signal. Who's fault is that?

That Colorado Springs is paying an OC'er that was wronged by a bad apple cop is testament to the system working. Do you think the law enforcement offices throughout the entire county didn't all get schooled on OC rights as a direct result of this one incident? One bad apple doesn't spoil the whole bunch my friend.

 

[BuddhaKat]

This forum involves posters from many different States so folks tend to speak from their personal perspective of the laws from their own State. But different States have different laws. There are States where it is required to immediately disclose being armed and having a carry permit to an officer and there are States that have no such requirement.

For example... Michigan requires a permit holder who is armed to immediately disclose he is armed and has a permit when stopped by an officer.

Which means if a person has a permit but ISN'T armed he is not required to disclose. Also it means an armed permit holder has to be "stopped" by an officer... which means if a cop comes up and starts a "conversation" but the person is not "stopped" (detained) he is not required to disclose.

That is just how Michigan's law works... I am not familiar with all the laws from all the States so I try very hard not to assume someone from another State has to obey the same laws I do.

However.... personally... Quite often our local Chief of Police drives through the neighborhood and I'll go out and talk about everyday stuff with him for a while ... but if I am armed and there is any hint of any doubt in my mind whether I'm being "stopped/detained", by any officer including the Chief, instead of just having an ordinary talk about everyday stuff... I'll disclose.

Link Removed

The law is the law. If the law requires you to disclose, then you should disclose. What do you have to lose? Odds are, the cop that has to run you is just as annoyed about having to do an unnecessary check as you are. Any cop I run into will know in two seconds that my face isn't on a poster at the post office. Their own assessment will tell them there's no need to look deeper. Even if they do, all they'll find is that I'm clean. Nothing to see here folks, move along. Again, no harm, no foul.

I live in Reno, NV. We have really good laws here regarding guns, including no duty to disclose. If I'm CC'n and I encounter a cop at the donut shop, I'm not going to run up to him and declare my status. They guy's enjoying a donut, I'm sure he's more into that than meeting me. But if I get stopped for speeding, (and I have), I have my CCW and drivers license in hand before the cop reaches my window. The first words out of my mouth are "I would like to declare a loaded weapon". It's happened twice so far, (I speed a lot), and both times all the cop did was ask where the weapon was. I always offer to surrender it if they would like and both times the cop said there was no need. The only thing that I noticed was that each time they returned to my car after that the first thing they did was look to see that the gun hadn't been moved. I was guilty as hell of speeding, but neither cop, one from the state highway patrol and the other from the County Sheriff, made even the slightest overture toward infringing on my right to possess. My assessment, everything went exactly as it was supposed to. I can't help but wonder if it would have been different if I hadn't declared the gun and the cop happened to notice it on his own. At minimum, it would make the hair on the back of his neck stand up.

 

[Treo]

WRGAF

????????????????

 

[CharlesMorrison]

In the event someone did respond, I'll tell ya what I'd do, I'd comply with everything the cop asked me to do, without hesitation, without argument. To do ANYTHING other than that would simply guarantee getting arrested.

Compliance, out of fear of arrest, is nothing more than absolute submission.
No uniform on earth gets respect from me if that respect is not given first.
Might as well just put your hands on your head, get on your knees and "complain about it later", huh? Kind of like all those Boston residents did after being taken out of their homes by force, ie, men with automatic rifles. No warrant presented, no legal right to enforce their action, just guns and screaming with a badge.
A uniform is just material sewn together and emblazoned with the appropriate markings. It confers no power on its own. As such, it is the actions of the individual who wears it that determines how they are perceived.

Cop or no cop, my "spidey sense" will go off until I deduce whether the individual is a threat to me... Period.
It's sad to hear from others that think the uniform deserves, nay demands respect over and above individual freedoms.




Sent from behind enemy lines.