W
wolfhunter
Guest
Since you won't carry on a discussion (this constitutes a rant) and have resorted to name calling in each of your posts in this thread, you're right, "End of discussion."
Open carry legal in Michigan
- Thread starter venator
- Start date
Since you won't carry on a discussion (this constitutes a rant) and have resorted to name calling in each of your posts in this thread, you're right, "End of discussion."
SSBN620Gold
New member
Mr. Anderson,
I don’t disagree with you regarding the Constitution. We the people have not done a good job electing representatives that embrace those same values. It looks like the political pendulum is going to swing to the right. We will find out in November.
The politicians and pro-gun lobby groups understood what was at stake with the passing of a “shall issue” CC law in Florida. They only allowed the statistically safe citizen’s CPL’s and required safety training. Anybody that could legally purchase a firearm was granted a CPL.
The passing of Florida’s “shall issue” CPL laws changed everything. When the Florida laws were passed there were as many states that allowed CC as there are today that don’t. There has been a dramatic political change regarding private citizen’s rights to own and carry guns. We have all benefited from these changes.
I agree that OC has always been legal in Michigan. My point about the effect of MCL 123.1102 was valid. Until the passage of that law in 1990 every local community had it’s own laws. Every county had different rules for getting a CCW. Many cities had laws prohibiting the transportation and possession of firearms. We all know those laws were not valid, good luck winning in court.
If I understand your post you object to the requirement to get a CPL to CC. I agree with you there is really not a difference between CC and OC. The life experience requirement s in Michigan to get a CPL are the same as the federal requirements to purchase a firearm. The ATF form 4473, sections 11a thru 11k contain these requirements. We all complete this form every time we purchase a firearm. I will paraphrase below.
11a. You must be purchasing the firearm for yourself. If you answer “no” the sale cannot proceed.
11b. Are you under indictment or information in any court for a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could imprison you for more than one year?
11c. Have you ever been convicted in any court of a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could have imprisoned you for more than one year, even if you received a shorter sentence including probation?
11d. Are you a fugitive from justice?
11e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controller substance?
11f. Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective (which includes a determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that you are a danger to yourself or to others or are incompetent to manage your own affairs) OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?
11g. Have you been discharged from the Armed Services under dishonorable conditions?
11h. Are you subject to a court order restraining you from harassing, stalking, or threatening your child or an intimate partner of child of such partner?
11i. Have you been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of violence?
11j. Have you ever renounced your United States citizenship?
11k. Are you an alien illegally in the United States.
If you answer “yes” to any 11b. thru 11k. the sale cannot proceed.
You may strongly disagree that these limitations are a good thing for the law abiding firearm owner.
I worked part time at a Sears Hardware store a number of years ago handling plumbing and electrical. I came to understand there are a lot of people that have no business owning tools.
I worked part time at a Gander Mountain selling firearms for nearly 5 years. It was proven to me there are a number of people that have no business owning guns, let alone carrying a gun.
I don’t have a problem requiring you are a citizen in good standing to purchase and own firearms. I strongly disagree with registration.
You strongly express disagreement with the mental illness limitations contained in the law. I’m curious, what mental illnesses should be over looked in the consideration of being allowed to carry a gun?
If a person is not eligible to get a CPL they are probably prohibited from owning firearms. This excludes being under 21 years old. If a person is prohibited from purchasing and owning firearms I don’t think they can legally OC.
Lastly, you are a smart guy, name calling and insults don’t help get your point across, they only alienate people from you.
I don’t disagree with you regarding the Constitution. We the people have not done a good job electing representatives that embrace those same values. It looks like the political pendulum is going to swing to the right. We will find out in November.
The politicians and pro-gun lobby groups understood what was at stake with the passing of a “shall issue” CC law in Florida. They only allowed the statistically safe citizen’s CPL’s and required safety training. Anybody that could legally purchase a firearm was granted a CPL.
The passing of Florida’s “shall issue” CPL laws changed everything. When the Florida laws were passed there were as many states that allowed CC as there are today that don’t. There has been a dramatic political change regarding private citizen’s rights to own and carry guns. We have all benefited from these changes.
I agree that OC has always been legal in Michigan. My point about the effect of MCL 123.1102 was valid. Until the passage of that law in 1990 every local community had it’s own laws. Every county had different rules for getting a CCW. Many cities had laws prohibiting the transportation and possession of firearms. We all know those laws were not valid, good luck winning in court.
If I understand your post you object to the requirement to get a CPL to CC. I agree with you there is really not a difference between CC and OC. The life experience requirement s in Michigan to get a CPL are the same as the federal requirements to purchase a firearm. The ATF form 4473, sections 11a thru 11k contain these requirements. We all complete this form every time we purchase a firearm. I will paraphrase below.
11a. You must be purchasing the firearm for yourself. If you answer “no” the sale cannot proceed.
11b. Are you under indictment or information in any court for a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could imprison you for more than one year?
11c. Have you ever been convicted in any court of a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could have imprisoned you for more than one year, even if you received a shorter sentence including probation?
11d. Are you a fugitive from justice?
11e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controller substance?
11f. Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective (which includes a determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that you are a danger to yourself or to others or are incompetent to manage your own affairs) OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?
11g. Have you been discharged from the Armed Services under dishonorable conditions?
11h. Are you subject to a court order restraining you from harassing, stalking, or threatening your child or an intimate partner of child of such partner?
11i. Have you been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of violence?
11j. Have you ever renounced your United States citizenship?
11k. Are you an alien illegally in the United States.
If you answer “yes” to any 11b. thru 11k. the sale cannot proceed.
You may strongly disagree that these limitations are a good thing for the law abiding firearm owner.
I worked part time at a Sears Hardware store a number of years ago handling plumbing and electrical. I came to understand there are a lot of people that have no business owning tools.
I worked part time at a Gander Mountain selling firearms for nearly 5 years. It was proven to me there are a number of people that have no business owning guns, let alone carrying a gun.
I don’t have a problem requiring you are a citizen in good standing to purchase and own firearms. I strongly disagree with registration.
You strongly express disagreement with the mental illness limitations contained in the law. I’m curious, what mental illnesses should be over looked in the consideration of being allowed to carry a gun?
If a person is not eligible to get a CPL they are probably prohibited from owning firearms. This excludes being under 21 years old. If a person is prohibited from purchasing and owning firearms I don’t think they can legally OC.
Lastly, you are a smart guy, name calling and insults don’t help get your point across, they only alienate people from you.
BradAnderson
New member
You'll have to check if Ohio allows open-carry with a CCW permit.
BradAnderson
New member
Observation isn't name-calling; they're useful idiots by any definition, as well as arrogant elitists.
You're also the one name-calling me, via the word "rant;" I wasn't name-calling you, so shove it; but apparently this is one of those boards where you goobers all stick together and if anyone disagrees with one of you, he gets attacked by all.
I was also carrying on a conversation just fine, but you seem to define disagreement as "ranting." That makes you a typical anal-retentive control-freak, dating back to toilet-training.
That was no conversation by any definition or distortion of the English language. Think about it just maybe when more than one person in a group takes note of these things and you do not, it could be time to go back and read your post and re think your methodology. In short you have been rude to any and all that have replied and have expressed opinions, reasoning, or ideas that do not precisely mesh with yours, and have insulted all.....
I sure hope you handle yourself better than this out in public for if not you may one day run into a similar personality type on the opposite side of the discussion, resulting in the kind of thing that makes the evening news and I mean not in a good way.....
Golden Eagle
New member
Ok back on topic... Venator you should correct your original post.
Someone added " (BAR)" which is true but misleading. You can't be on the premises of any bar, store or gas station that's licensed to sells liquor. Including their parking lots. Yes this law sucks but would hate to see anyone misled.
John
Someone added " (BAR)" which is true but misleading. You can't be on the premises of any bar, store or gas station that's licensed to sells liquor. Including their parking lots. Yes this law sucks but would hate to see anyone misled.
John
BradAnderson
New member
One problem:
PRIVACY.
The federal right of privacy includes the right to do anything privately, which you can also do publicly. Therefore, a CPL requirement for ANYTHING is a 9th (privacy) 14th Amendment (equal protection) violation. This requirement is also an ex post facto law, since it applies to people who are disqualified from CPL's for information discovered prior to its passage.
But the state gets away with it because anyone who has the time or money to prosecute such a complaint, are those who can also afford to get CPL's.
This is all just one more of a million examples of how the fed is a dictorship, and the states are all feudal fiefs.
PRIVACY.
The federal right of privacy includes the right to do anything privately, which you can also do publicly. Therefore, a CPL requirement for ANYTHING is a 9th (privacy) 14th Amendment (equal protection) violation. This requirement is also an ex post facto law, since it applies to people who are disqualified from CPL's for information discovered prior to its passage.
But the state gets away with it because anyone who has the time or money to prosecute such a complaint, are those who can also afford to get CPL's.
This is all just one more of a million examples of how the fed is a dictorship, and the states are all feudal fiefs.
ok i'll be honest i havnt read every single word of every post in here... so i dont know if this info is in here already...
in regards to open carry on motorcycle...
also for Illinois residents coming in here for info to open carry in MI please see below...
http://www.usacarry.com/forums/illi...linois-residents-can-open-carry-michigan.html
in short Illinois residents can open carry in MI with the use of the Illinois FOID card... but no carry in vehicle...
in regards to open carry on motorcycle...
also for Illinois residents coming in here for info to open carry in MI please see below...
http://www.usacarry.com/forums/illi...linois-residents-can-open-carry-michigan.html
in short Illinois residents can open carry in MI with the use of the Illinois FOID card... but no carry in vehicle...
armedpreacher
New member
Open Carry with CPL
Thanks to the info that I have received here, I now have answers to questions that I have had about open carry since I received my CPL. I've learned a lot in just the past hour or so. Thanks for the information. I did have a police officer that gave me my course for CPL, mention in the class that he would give a person some harassment if he was seen doing "open carry". Glad to know that this is legal. The officer is a friend of mine, so I wasn't all that concerned.
Thanks to the info that I have received here, I now have answers to questions that I have had about open carry since I received my CPL. I've learned a lot in just the past hour or so. Thanks for the information. I did have a police officer that gave me my course for CPL, mention in the class that he would give a person some harassment if he was seen doing "open carry". Glad to know that this is legal. The officer is a friend of mine, so I wasn't all that concerned.
Snowman1911
Banned
Wow, I am actually stunned. I lived in Michigan (outside Flint in Davison) for four years while going to high school. Being from Arizona, I found MI gun laws extremely restrictive and draconian. It seems things have lightened considerably. Good for you all.
I remember being run thorugh the ringer by Flint PD while on vacation visiting my granparents and carrying concealed (pulled over and notified officer).
I showed him my badge (yes cop), my AZ CCW which I got though I was a cop to avoid the Brady Bill hassles even for LE, and all my papers (license, insurance, registration was kosher).
You'd have thought I was LH Oswald or some other notorious feller.
Good for you all!
I remember being run thorugh the ringer by Flint PD while on vacation visiting my granparents and carrying concealed (pulled over and notified officer).
I showed him my badge (yes cop), my AZ CCW which I got though I was a cop to avoid the Brady Bill hassles even for LE, and all my papers (license, insurance, registration was kosher).
You'd have thought I was LH Oswald or some other notorious feller.
Good for you all!
winston692
New member
Any thoughts on how to transition from concealed to open carry. When carrying concealed you are to keep your pistol concealed at all times, failure to do so opens you up to "brandishing" or violation of concealed carry law. For example, you have a cpl and are carrying open while shopping, you go to your car and since you have a cpl you get in and drive to another store exit your vehicle carrying your pistol in plain view. Legal or do you have choose and carry either open or concealed?
Doc Mustang
New member
In Michigan since Open Carry is legal (with a few exceptions), and since concealed carry is legal with a permit (with a few exceptions), and since under Michigan's convoluted laws Open carry by CPL holders is legal in "pistol free zones" it would be very difficult for "brandishing" laws to be applied.
In an attorney genearal opinion former governor Jennifer Granholm stated that brandishing required actually using the pistol in a threatening manner not simply carrying it.
AG Opinion on Brandishing
The circumstances in your question are different. Per the current understanding of Michigan law, carrying a pistol openly on your person in a motor vehicle (including motorcycles) constitutes concealed carry and requires a permit. You therefore are legally open carrying at store one, carry concealed while traveling in your car to store two. Then when you exit your vehicle you are once again legally carrying a firearm in the open. No issues.
Prior to transitioning to Open Carry, I strongly suggest you familiarize yourself with the laws and opinions surrounding it. Here are a couple of websites with resources to get you started:
Michigan Open Carry, Inc. | Nothing to hide!
Link Removed
If I may also humbly request you familiarize yourself with the laws surrounding concealed carry as well. Your question reflects a very common misconception. If you are going to carry a firearm in public it is your responsibility to know the laws. A misconception such as stated above is relatively harmless. What should concern you are misconceptions you may have which could get you in trouble.
BradAnderson
New member
Here's the problem
The Michigan law against concealed-carry, is based on the claim that if you have a concealed gun then you MIGHT get into a fistfight, and then pull your concealed handgun out and shoot the other guy, and so the law says that he has the right to know if you're packing.
That's a violation of basic presumption of innocence, which goes back to the MAGNA CARTA as well as the Constitution.
Likewise, the requirement to carry a gun in plain sight, violates the federal right of Privacy, which is the right "to be free from public scrutiny." In other words, as long as you are not otherwise carrying something illegal, then the government has no right to know-- nor does anyone else.
Since the state law says you can carry openly, then by extension the federal right of privacy says you can carry discreetly as well, via the federal Constitution's Supremacy clause.
Finally, Michgan's CCW law won't issue a permit if you have "been diagnosed with a mental illness," which the law defines as "any condition which prevents dealing with everyday life," even though there's no evidence of being an increased danger to anyone, whether yourself or others.
This violates the 14th Amendment right to equal protection of the laws, as well as the Americans with Disabilities Act.
So this law is thrice unconstitutional; but the state has been doing it for 75 years since the law was passed in 1937.
We rally need to take this to federal court and have it overturned.
If anyone is interested, I can write up the case since I've had legal training.
The Michigan law against concealed-carry, is based on the claim that if you have a concealed gun then you MIGHT get into a fistfight, and then pull your concealed handgun out and shoot the other guy, and so the law says that he has the right to know if you're packing.
That's a violation of basic presumption of innocence, which goes back to the MAGNA CARTA as well as the Constitution.
Likewise, the requirement to carry a gun in plain sight, violates the federal right of Privacy, which is the right "to be free from public scrutiny." In other words, as long as you are not otherwise carrying something illegal, then the government has no right to know-- nor does anyone else.
Since the state law says you can carry openly, then by extension the federal right of privacy says you can carry discreetly as well, via the federal Constitution's Supremacy clause.
Finally, Michgan's CCW law won't issue a permit if you have "been diagnosed with a mental illness," which the law defines as "any condition which prevents dealing with everyday life," even though there's no evidence of being an increased danger to anyone, whether yourself or others.
This violates the 14th Amendment right to equal protection of the laws, as well as the Americans with Disabilities Act.
So this law is thrice unconstitutional; but the state has been doing it for 75 years since the law was passed in 1937.
We rally need to take this to federal court and have it overturned.
If anyone is interested, I can write up the case since I've had legal training.
BradAnderson
New member
As long as you're not a felon or on probation or parole, then yes, you can; it's a RIGHT not a privilege.
BradAnderson
New member
Not only that, but here we see that open-carry is a RIGHT, and therefore it cannot be compromised, unless the privilege of carrying concealed somehow materially conflicts with it-- like drinking and driving, i.e. you have the right to drink and the privilege to drive, but the first materially conflicts with the second so you can't drink AND drive at the same time.
Here, the right of carrying your firearm openly does not in any way conflict with carrying it concealed, so it's poppycock to say that a CCW disallows you from carrying openly.
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