Open Carry "Harassment" in Philly - be smart!


cidav8r

New member
THIS situation has prompted a lot of criticism of the police in Philly by CCW supporters, but it could have happened anywhere - TX, FL, MO, - anywhere. It should make us all think carefully about our actions and whether just because we CAN do something, if we SHOULD do it. Did this event help or hurt gun rights and CCW? Public opinion is extremely important to advancing our rights - how will the public see this event?

In my opinion, this guy was looking for this to happen. This 24 year old child was carrying openly in Philadelphia and carried a tape recorder which tells me he wanted a confrontation. He had obviously rehearsed his own response since he quoted statute numbers so he set it up and he got it. I've seen this so many times with gun rights people - not as much to this extent but usually in a more administrative way. People have the legal right to do something so they shove it in other people's face. I think this is stupid. First, it's stupid to provoke a confrontation with a police officer. When a cop points a gun at your chest (or even if he doesn't) and tells you to do something - DO IT. Don't ask questions. Don't make comments. Don't debate him. Follow instructions to the letter. If you have a problem with the cop, deal with it after the situation has been defused. Second, it's stupid to walk down the street flaunting your right to carry openly knowing full well that much of the general public are going to be shocked and scared to see a firearm carried openly and that this is going to get attention. In terms of promoting gun rights, this is the WORST thing anyone can do.

The last several years have seen an enormous expansion of gun rights across the country. The Heller case in DC and the McDonald case in Chicago both have provided a legal basis for this and it's a HUGE victory for us. People are applying for, and receiving, CCW permits in record numbers. Hooray! Don't do anything stupid to screw it up! The fact that all this has happened so quickly means that sheeple haven't had time to adjust to it. If YOU are smart, YOU will give them that time. We need to show the sheeple that guns AREN'T scary and that guns AREN'T evil things. You don't do this by waving your gun in their face. All this will do is bolster anti-gun efforts. Tides change and the advances we have made can be lost just as quickly. Look how fast the anti-gun lobby jumped on the Tucson shooting. Bad press like this hurts us. It doesn't matter that the guy was a psycho. All the public sees is a gun and dead people. As CCW holders we must work doubly hard to win the hearts and minds of the public, not beat them over the head.

We need to maintain and even increase the momentum we've established in the last several years. You do this by demonstrating to the sheeple how responsible and safe you are. You do this by quietly and respectfully exercising your rights. Make the sheeple comfortable and put them to sleep. In the mean time, you work to educate the sheeple, you help to slowly build statistics that PROMOTE our cause, you build relationships to help persuade ALL law enforcement to support us, and we all continue to work through government and the legal system to expand and protect our rights. Carry a gun to protect yourself, NOT to make a public statement or get your 15 min of fame on CNN or the local news or YouTube. Keep them concealed.

The constitution is a beautiful, wonderful, amazing document but it only works if we have smart people who can handle responsibility. This guy was stupid. BE SMART.
 

BlackieChan

New member
I don't know man. It used to be that people who concealed were considered sketchy, because they were. If you don't have anything to hide, wear it on your belt.

You are probably right that he expected a confrontation based on him carrying a recorder. But it's smart to do so if you OC because **** like this happens to people who OC and you can't just put your word against the LEO. So I think he was at least smart to do that and the audio shows that he was smart to carry a recorder.

I like that people OC because it puts the issue out there rather than under the carpet. It offers the opportunity for citizens to get used to seeing people armed.

ne ways more later.
 

Kasper

New member
In my opinion, this guy was looking for this to happen. This 24 year old child was carrying openly in Philadelphia and carried a tape recorder which tells me he wanted a confrontation. He had obviously rehearsed his own response since he quoted statute numbers so he set it up and he got it. I've seen this so many times with gun rights people - not as much to this extent but usually in a more administrative way. People have the legal right to do something so they shove it in other people's face. I think this is stupid. First, it's stupid to provoke a confrontation with a police officer. When a cop points a gun at your chest (or even if he doesn't) and tells you to do something - DO IT. Don't ask questions. Don't make comments. Don't debate him. Follow instructions to the letter. If you have a problem with the cop, deal with it after the situation has been defused. Second, it's stupid to walk down the street flaunting your right to carry openly knowing full well that much of the general public are going to be shocked and scared to see a firearm carried openly and that this is going to get attention. In terms of promoting gun rights, this is the WORST thing anyone can do.

The last several years have seen an enormous expansion of gun rights across the country. The Heller case in DC and the McDonald case in Chicago both have provided a legal basis for this and it's a HUGE victory for us. People are applying for, and receiving, CCW permits in record numbers. Hooray! Don't do anything stupid to screw it up! The fact that all this has happened so quickly means that sheeple haven't had time to adjust to it. If YOU are smart, YOU will give them that time. We need to show the sheeple that guns AREN'T scary and that guns AREN'T evil things. You don't do this by waving your gun in their face. All this will do is bolster anti-gun efforts. Tides change and the advances we have made can be lost just as quickly. Look how fast the anti-gun lobby jumped on the Tucson shooting. Bad press like this hurts us. It doesn't matter that the guy was a psycho. All the public sees is a gun and dead people. As CCW holders we must work doubly hard to win the hearts and minds of the public, not beat them over the head.

The constitution is a beautiful, wonderful, amazing document but it only works if we have smart people who can handle responsibility. This guy was stupid. BE SMART.

Let me use you logic and say that your looking to get raped, robbed and then shot due to the fact that you carry a firearm ? I believe your reply would be thats stupid I carry one to keep those things from happening to me. So why the hell can you not see that is the reason people who OC carry recorders. Let alone most smart phones have the ability to record audio to the storage card and now with the android phones it can be synced to the cloud/internet and down loaded later. So just because you carry something for protecting yourself does not mean your looking to use it. Every one who has a fire extinguisher does not buy it hoping their house or car catches fire so that they can use it.

Also it was the police officer that was waving his gun around and pointing it at a citizen who was not a direct threat to him or anyone else. So stop kissing up to the police and grown a backbone to stand up for your rights. As I have said on many other post here when you were raised by your parents I am sure they told you treat people the way you would like to be treated and respect is a two way street. Problem is most of the police force has forgotten this or not raised well by their parents. The last one I don't believe is the case I believe it is due to most police officers now being former military forgot that this is not the US army and citizens do not give up their rights like they did when they joined the military. In the army as your rank increase you give an order and it gets done without any questions asked. So from what I can see he had a problem with him not following his orders and when he told him they laws that said that it was legal for him to carry his firearm in his holster on his hip you can noticed that the officer gets infuriated. So from that I came to the decision that he is use to giving orders that get followed without anyone talking back to him, and the only place I know that happens here in the USA is in the military.

So after seeing this happen if you OC are you going to do so with out knowing the states statute numbers that allow you to OC so if stopped you can then inform them of the state statute that allows you to OC or are you just going to lay down and let them walk all over your rights. As most know you need to practice to be prepared for situations that might happen to you and by him taking the time to learn the state statute numbers that allow him to OC shows me that he is smart due to the fact that he knows them. I on the other hand don't know them but know that here in Tacoma,Wa it is legal for me to Oc but telling that to a police offer who does not know the law will do me no good but if I had the state statute numbers he could look it up or get on the radio and ask the dispatcher if it is a real state statute. But for all of that to happen we must first treat each other the way we expect to be treated. If I started talking to him the way that officer on the recording did I would have been arrested for assaulting an officer. Verbal assault is a crime you can be charged with here in Washington.

well I am starting to ramble on so I will stop here.
 

father-of-three

New member
Welcome, "Ci."

There's lots of fine lines and gray areas here. The original post by the individual himself can be found on pafoa.org. Personally, I'm a concealed carry person, but that it what I find works best for me. I appreciate people being in accordance with and having knowledge of the laws, even when people, including law enforcement do not know them. This can come across as being "Know-it-all-ish" by some, but ignorance is no excuse, especially when it comes to firearms. Sometimes having the actual law on hand can be helpful. These Philadelphia officers are a great example of lack of knowledge and assumption that only gang thugs have guns. I would be fired if I use the language that "Sargeant F-Bomb" used while he was on the job! On the other hand, it is said that the first rule of self defense is avoidance. Where we draw the comfort line between these two issue will differ somewhat, probably for a variety of reasons.

Are there a few things that could have been done differently, from what I heard on the recording? I say yes. But, to be fair, could he have been a bit nervous, being on the business end of a police drawn weapon? I say yes as well. It's a situation that will draw from both sides of the debate, but no one got hurt, and we can learn some things from it as well.
 

nogods

Active member
Those opposed to armed citizens should prefer open carry to conceal carry if they can't stop all carry.

I've had this conversation several times with friends and relatives opposed to armed citizens:

Me: "You walk into a Starbucks and see a dozen ordinary people with firearms attached to their belts. How do you feel?"

Them: "I don't feel uncomfortable. I think I'd leave."

Me: "OK, then lets say concealed carry is required, you walk into the same Starbucks, all 12 of those ordinary citizens are armed but their weapons are concealed and you don't know they are carrying firearms. Do you feel uncomfortable?

Them: "No, because I don't know they have guns."

Me: "In the first hypothetical you said you felt uncomfortable when you saw the ordinary citizens with guns. why did you feel uncomfortable?"

Them: "because guns are dangerous no matter who has them. I don't feel safe around guns."

Me: "OK, but aren't you just as "unsafe" when all the weapons are concealed? Wouldn't you be better off if open carry was required, because at least then you'd know where it was "unsafe" and could leave?"

Them: "Well, yeah, I guess so. but I don't think anyone should be carrying a gun in Starbucks."

Me: "Yes, I understand your position, but if you couldn't stop people from being armed in Starbucks because the law allows it, would you rather have concealed carry or open carry?"

Them: "Open carry would be better for me to make decisions."
 

BlackieChan

New member
Those opposed to armed citizens should prefer open carry to conceal carry if they can't stop all carry.

I've had this conversation several times with friends and relatives opposed to armed citizens:

Me: "You walk into a Starbucks and see a dozen ordinary people with firearms attached to their belts. How do you feel?"

Them: "I don't feel uncomfortable. I think I'd leave."

Me: "OK, then lets say concealed carry is required, you walk into the same Starbucks, all 12 of those ordinary citizens are armed but their weapons are concealed and you don't know they are carrying firearms. Do you feel uncomfortable?

Them: "No, because I don't know they have guns."

Me: "In the first hypothetical you said you felt uncomfortable when you saw the ordinary citizens with guns. why did you feel uncomfortable?"

Them: "because guns are dangerous no matter who has them. I don't feel safe around guns."

Me: "OK, but aren't you just as "unsafe" when all the weapons are concealed? Wouldn't you be better off if open carry was required, because at least then you'd know where it was "unsafe" and could leave?"

Them: "Well, yeah, I guess so. but I don't think anyone should be carrying a gun in Starbucks."

Me: "Yes, I understand your position, but if you couldn't stop people from being armed in Starbucks because the law allows it, would you rather have concealed carry or open carry?"

Them: "Open carry would be better for me to make decisions."

And if these people would take two logical thoughts they could have come to this conclusion themselves.

Seriously, favoring CC over OC is like sticking your head in the sand.

It is also kind of irritating that the OP just scatters this **** all over the internet rather than just posting on his home forum if this is just a repost from somewhere else.
 

Lakeland Man

New member
I does look like a cut and paste job, but thats neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned.

I feel that if someone has the right to OC and chooses to OC, they should not be hassled by the police. I don't agree that OC'ing is equivalent to "waving your gun in someones face". The person is just choosing to OC, going about their daily business. People will never get used to the idea of OC if nobody does it.

All that being said, I choose to CC. Here in FL, I'm not given an OC option...yet. But when it does happen, I will most likely CC simply because that is my personal choice. I don't feel that I'm "sticking my head in the sand". This is just they way I choose to carry. At least I AM carrying!

I do feel that some OC'ers go too far. They actively seek a confrontation with police or citizens in order to "get their point across". IMHO, they set the OC cause back by doing so. It seems to me that the sheeple will look upon all carriers, whether OC or CC, as rude thugs.

I recently saw a video on this forum about a group of people who were going to OC at a restaurant and ended up in a confrontation with the police beacuse of it. One of the OC'ers was carrying a rifle across his back. Another was loud, rude, and confrontational. Yes, the police were wrong. Yes, the OC'ers had a right to OC. Yes, the restaurant manager changed his mind about allowing OC in his restaurant that day. But when all was said and done, do you think those OC'ers helped their cause or hurt it. I think they did themselves no favors. They were within their rights, but I think they, AS WELL AS THE POLICE, handled it badly.

As gun owners and carriers, we do need to educate the general public about 2A and the right to bear arms. I just think it can be done with a little class.
 

Turkules77

New member
Im in agreement with op as far as he was definitely looking for a confrontation. Carrying a recording device and having it on, having statute numbers and reciting them and being confrontational with the cop. It just screams pre-mediatated.

I disagree with the op as far as OC. If it is legal in your state and you feel comfortable then go for it....but be prepared to deal with people that are uncomfortable with guns.

I also agree with Lakeland. Trying to prove a point may just be hurting the cause. The group in Michigan seemed bent on pushing the limits. Its one thing to have an annual meal where you all open carry your pistols, but showing up with a rifle strapped to your back is just asking to be harassed. This has nothing to do with whats legal or illegal, it has to do with keeping yourself out of situations that are avoidable. Everyone on this site is a gun person and gun owner. The majority of the public are not gun people. Guns freak a lot of people out, thats just human nature for a lot of people. If there is a family eating lunch and a group of 6 people come in all carrying pistols and some have rifles strapped to there back, yeah its going to create a scene and a confrontation. But in the end, I think thats just what they wanted, and I am not going to act surprised that it happened.
 

Deanimator

New member
Carrying a voice recorder tells me that you know there are some LEOs who shouldn't be LEOs, not just because they either don't know or don't care what the law is, but especially because they have serious problems with integrity and telling the truth.
 

BC1

,
I don't know man. It used to be that people who concealed were considered sketchy, because they were. If you don't have anything to hide, wear it on your belt.
Wearing it open removes the element of surprise and can invite trouble in bad neighborhoods. In PP training we teach "SSS." Stealth, Surprise, Skill. I've seen stealth attacks by wolfpacks take the gun during a beatdown. 15 kids hiding along the street and then coming from every direction. Your gun is a highly coveted item to them. While OC is OK in most areas, it's questionable in bad neighborhoods. The first rule to a gunfight? Don't be there. Avoidance and deterrence.

Besides, I have enough to carry around with adding a tape recorder. Can't even find my keys. Gonna need a "man bag." :sarcastic:
 

Beau

I was never here.
I carry a voice recorder all the time now. Not just because I OC either. It's a smart thing to do. An officers badge doesn't provide magical powers of truth telling. Officers can lie and they do.

As far as the guy in Philly. Yes I think he could have handled it a little better. It's easy to armchair quarterback a situation though. Judging by the audio (yes I listened to all of it) if I had to pick a side that handled the whole situation wrong it's the officers.
I don't care if the guy was being smart by carrying a recorder of if he was actually out to try and get stopped. What he was doing was legal. There was no reason for his life to be threatened. No reason to be stripped of his possessions. No reason to be stripped of his liberty.

Some of you have no problem giving up essential liberty for a little security. I guess ol' Ben had no idea what he was talking about.
 

BlackieChan

New member
All that being said, I choose to CC. Here in FL, I'm not given an OC option...yet. But when it does happen, I will most likely CC simply because that is my personal choice. I don't feel that I'm "sticking my head in the sand". This is just they way I choose to carry. At least I AM carrying!

I CC as well. I didn't say that CC'ers have a "sticking their head in the sand" mentality.

I was replying to another post.

The analogy was, 12 people in starbucks OC'ing do you feel uncomfortable, what if they were CC'ing you don't feel uncomfortable which do you prefer CC that's dumb.

Just read the post and follow along
 

BlackieChan

New member
Wearing it open removes the element of surprise and can invite trouble in bad neighborhoods. In PP training we teach "SSS." Stealth, Surprise, Skill. I've seen stealth attacks by wolfpacks take the gun during a beatdown. 15 kids hiding along the street and then coming from every direction. Your gun is a highly coveted item to them. While OC is OK in most areas, it's questionable in bad neighborhoods. The first rule to a gunfight? Don't be there. Avoidance and deterrence.

Besides, I have enough to carry around with adding a tape recorder. Can't even find my keys. Gonna need a "man bag." :sarcastic:

I don't agree that CC'ing gives you the element of surprise. Surprise is an offensive tactic, not defensive.
That being said, I CC just the same.

Self defense starts with avoidance, I don't go into bad neighborhoods, but if I did, I think I would feel like a target if I was carrying a gun around openly.

There again, anecdotally, if you have seen someone jumped by 15 kids for their gun... I have also seen nasty situation defused by the mere sight of a gun.
 

NavyLCDR

New member
BlackieChan said:
Seriously, favoring CC over OC is like sticking your head in the sand.
Maybe I read this wrong, but it seems clear to me.

I think what BlackieChan was saying was that when people prefer that other people CC, because they are frightened by the sight of a gun, they are sticking their heads in the sand.

For example, look at this comment made by the Tulsa Chief of Police about their open carry bill:

Link Removed

But Jordan said his main concern as police chief is for the safety of his officers on the streets.

"It would make the job much more difficult," he said. "It puts an officer in a position of having to ask himself, 'Does this guy have an open-carry permit, or does he just have a gun in his belt because I'm stopping him?' "
What the police chief fails to acknowledge is that a law allowing open carry changes absolutely nothing. In fact, it would make his officers on the street safer because they could look at a person and say, "He has a gun" if open carrying. If concealed carrying, the officer looks at a person and asks, "I wonder if he has a gun."

I think this is a total example of the "head in the sand" mentality some people have. To the Chief of Police of Tulsa, clearly, out of sight is out of mind.
 

BlackieChan

New member
I think what BlackieChan was saying was that when people prefer that other people CC, because they are frightened by the sight of a gun, they are sticking their heads in the sand.

For example, look at this comment made by the Tulsa Chief of Police about their open carry bill:

Link Removed


What the police chief fails to acknowledge is that a law allowing open carry changes absolutely nothing. In fact, it would make his officers on the street safer because they could look at a person and say, "He has a gun" if open carrying. If concealed carrying, the officer looks at a person and asks, "I wonder if he has a gun."

I think this is a total example of the "head in the sand" mentality some people have. To the Chief of Police of Tulsa, clearly, out of sight is out of mind.

Thank you, that is exactly what I meant.
 

Lakeland Man

New member
OK, I can support that. I choose CC, but If someone wants to OC and the law allows, I say go for it.

Sorry I misunderstood.
 

BlackieChan

New member
OK, I can support that. I choose CC, but If someone wants to OC and the law allows, I say go for it.

Sorry I misunderstood.

No, not a problem. I'm not a genius of a writer so I don't count it against someone if they don't understand what I'm trying to convey.
 

Kasper

New member
Wearing it open removes the element of surprise and can invite trouble in bad neighborhoods. In PP training we teach "SSS." Stealth, Surprise, Skill. I've seen stealth attacks by wolfpacks take the gun during a beatdown. 15 kids hiding along the street and then coming from every direction. Your gun is a highly coveted item to them. While OC is OK in most areas, it's questionable in bad neighborhoods. The first rule to a gunfight? Don't be there. Avoidance and deterrence.

Besides, I have enough to carry around with adding a tape recorder. Can't even find my keys. Gonna need a "man bag." :sarcastic:

Help me to understand this element of surprise you are talking about. For if you are CCing you are not going to pull your gun till you have been surprised/alerted by the attacker. So your element of surprise is not very effective unless you are able to get the attackers attention pointed elsewhere while you draw your gun to fire on the attacker.
 

blueboss

New member
IMO, to each his/her own. Now with that being said, why is it that everytime I read somebody tryin to tell the world that they hold their RKBA rights as sacred and should not be infringed in any way as the Founders intended, and then in their next breath they insist upon infringing upon my right to open carry. Do those that do this think that in some way that they have the moral high ground or something ???? Do I dislike Concealed carry ??? Hell No, no way BUT, at the same time I will not bow to those that wish to make me cover-up my right and be very very quite about it in public. Who are they to say that I am stupid and looking to make loud and in your face statement ????? As a human being having been endowed by my Creator with the right to self defense and my right to use whatever tool I choose to do so, I find it highly offensive that some choose to badmouth those of us that open carry and carry on a rant atop their soapbox about the "TACTICAL SUPERIORTY" of conceal carry because of some PROPAGANDA BS spewed by the Conceal Carry Instructors who wouldn't get paid to so if more people understood they have a RIGHT to open carry. At least in most states it is. Others seem PC and to not want to rock the boat in areas that seem to me to be more suburban or just liberal. Frankly, I'm fed up to here with self-righteous city folks tellin folks like me out here in the country, in a State that is very open carry friendly, that we SHOULDN'T tote a gun in plain sight even though we have every right to do so. I don't bad mouth you or bring up the FACT that our Founding Fathers thought that concealing a gun was wrong and not to be done by anyone who has nothing to hide.
Missouri has legal open carry, and it requires no training, no background check, and no permit. Doesn't cost a person one red dime if he/she wants to open carry here. However, our State Constitution spells out a specific exception for concealed firearms.

Missouri State Constitution, Article 1, Section 23
Section 23. That the right of every citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or when lawfully summoned in aid of the civil power, shall not be questioned; but this shall not justify the wearing of concealed weapons.


In other words, Missouri views the carrying of concealed firearms as a privilege, NOT a right, and they regulate that privilege with training requirements, background checks, and a $100 permit processing fee to be paid to the County Sheriff's Dept. And of course CCW Instructors that are paid very well to teach those CCW Classes.
 

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