I was NRA certified in July of this year and I am working with 4 other instructors. I love teaching and giving new and experienced shooters the confidence and knowledge of handling a firearm responsibly. Someone pointed out some trainers that have created "on-line" training courses that apparently meet some State requirements for training towards a CCW permit. Although these "on-line" courses seem to be legit, and are accepted by the issuing branches for State CCW units, I'm curious, what is the general consensus among those here? I like meeting my students, I want to see them ask questions, I like to see them handle their firearms. Am I just old fashion? What do fellow instructors say about this new way of training?
On-Line Training Classes
- Thread starter mdkoh
- Start date
ozzmanluv269
New member
I'm not an instructer but I took an online class it is very basic instruction ok if you have grown up with firearms your whole life. However I would not recommend it for newcomers. Just not enough info for newbies. Imho
I agree with you. I like to see my students and see how they perform and handle their firearm. And I feel that anybody planning on using a firearm for any purpose whether it be self-defense, hunting or just recreational plinking, should get both training and practice.
However, this has very little to do with on-line training being sufficient for CHP. Personally, while I will always do my best to follow the laws of whatever state I am in, I am a Constitutionalist and firmly believe that since the US Constitution states, in the 2nd amendment, “the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed” that there should not be a requirement for training. If you are not prohibited from owning a firearm, you should be allowed to carry one if you so desire.
Rights are not privileges. Privileges are earned and granted while rights are inherent. By placing requirements on the exercise on a right you are, in essence, denying the right and then granting a privilege. My personal opinion, which you may or may not agree with, is that this is wrong, especially when talking about a right that has been confirmed and endorsed by the US Constitution, the highest law in our country.
However, this has very little to do with on-line training being sufficient for CHP. Personally, while I will always do my best to follow the laws of whatever state I am in, I am a Constitutionalist and firmly believe that since the US Constitution states, in the 2nd amendment, “the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed” that there should not be a requirement for training. If you are not prohibited from owning a firearm, you should be allowed to carry one if you so desire.
Rights are not privileges. Privileges are earned and granted while rights are inherent. By placing requirements on the exercise on a right you are, in essence, denying the right and then granting a privilege. My personal opinion, which you may or may not agree with, is that this is wrong, especially when talking about a right that has been confirmed and endorsed by the US Constitution, the highest law in our country.
It's garbage.
I wonder how one would demonstrate proficiency online? (That's a requirement here in SC).
In Oregon, there's no proficiency requirement. (Nor is there for Utah)
The Oregon CHL class was a total joke. It was more about CYA for legal issues.
The Utah class definitely went into more detail, but still, passing it doesn't require even touching a firearm.
Sad, but true.
UD
The Oregon CHL class was a total joke. It was more about CYA for legal issues.
The Utah class definitely went into more detail, but still, passing it doesn't require even touching a firearm.
Sad, but true.
UD
maybejim
Maybejim
Personally, I do not believe a Constitutionally protected right should be subject to government regulation and testing anyway. I have never seen any evidence (and I look at a lot of gun stuff) that required training results in any improved results. I'm not against taking instruction and have taken a number of required and non-required training courses but I am against a government imposed condition for a right especially with no evidence that it provides any improved results.
I think the biggest issue here is "why is it OK for classes to be a lecture format with no live fire instruction in person...and in some instances its not OK to offer the exact same material online?"
Its a little baffling to say the least as I have actually sat in other instructors classes (they asked me to review their class and pass on tips) and what they taught was almost identical to 99.9% of others regardless of whether the class was in person or an online course.
In many states that are either Constitutional Carry or Shall Issue there are no live fire requirements and thus many that instruct in those areas (myself included) teach a course that covers everything needed to comply with State Law (I offer far more based on added education/certification) but of course most of us include the fact that Live Fire training is needed and strongly advise students to take the added training.
There are many things being learned online (if universities understand the value it can work for other concepts) that have in the past required LIVE practical instruction but based on how its presented it allows the student to overcome obstacles such as; distance from the school, transportation issues and/or added costs for child care.
To NOT use online formats is actually causing many to lose out on added revenue in educating students.
How many books and videos are out there already that many on here have used to learn a new training drill or concept...PLENTY!
Yet the only difference is that someone with a "recognizable" name in the industry seems to get less flack than an instructor who understands that technology is there for a reason and can actually have far greater benefit than not using it.
Heck...the NRA has complete Videos of the exact courses NRA Instructors can teach including BASIC Pistol which actually goes over how to shoot using traditional shooting platforms. So why would it then be unrealistic for a student to learn in a similar fashion online?
With technology we can learn and share more information in ways unavailable to past generations and its not ironic that the biggest advocates are the newer generation of instructors while the biggest challengers are those of those past generations.
Again, in all technicalities the NRA has several of its courses available on DVD with a supporting manual and in most cases (unfortunately) its better presented that what the average Instructor is offering students in their LIVE classes.
...is it better to learn from an average instructor in person or from an excellent instructor online if there is NO requirement for live fire training to be done?
Even if live fire training is required, why would an instructor not use today's technology to allow students to take the "classroom" portion online prior arriving to the "live fire" portion of a course? If one did then they could have many more students with the classroom/theory portion done in advance and therefore shorten the LIVE portion of the course by ensuring the competency with a firearm in a setting with ALREADY EDUCATED students!
J.
Its a little baffling to say the least as I have actually sat in other instructors classes (they asked me to review their class and pass on tips) and what they taught was almost identical to 99.9% of others regardless of whether the class was in person or an online course.
In many states that are either Constitutional Carry or Shall Issue there are no live fire requirements and thus many that instruct in those areas (myself included) teach a course that covers everything needed to comply with State Law (I offer far more based on added education/certification) but of course most of us include the fact that Live Fire training is needed and strongly advise students to take the added training.
There are many things being learned online (if universities understand the value it can work for other concepts) that have in the past required LIVE practical instruction but based on how its presented it allows the student to overcome obstacles such as; distance from the school, transportation issues and/or added costs for child care.
To NOT use online formats is actually causing many to lose out on added revenue in educating students.
How many books and videos are out there already that many on here have used to learn a new training drill or concept...PLENTY!
Yet the only difference is that someone with a "recognizable" name in the industry seems to get less flack than an instructor who understands that technology is there for a reason and can actually have far greater benefit than not using it.
Heck...the NRA has complete Videos of the exact courses NRA Instructors can teach including BASIC Pistol which actually goes over how to shoot using traditional shooting platforms. So why would it then be unrealistic for a student to learn in a similar fashion online?
With technology we can learn and share more information in ways unavailable to past generations and its not ironic that the biggest advocates are the newer generation of instructors while the biggest challengers are those of those past generations.
Again, in all technicalities the NRA has several of its courses available on DVD with a supporting manual and in most cases (unfortunately) its better presented that what the average Instructor is offering students in their LIVE classes.
...is it better to learn from an average instructor in person or from an excellent instructor online if there is NO requirement for live fire training to be done?
Even if live fire training is required, why would an instructor not use today's technology to allow students to take the "classroom" portion online prior arriving to the "live fire" portion of a course? If one did then they could have many more students with the classroom/theory portion done in advance and therefore shorten the LIVE portion of the course by ensuring the competency with a firearm in a setting with ALREADY EDUCATED students!
J.
There is a new ONLINE training program that was approved by New Mexico. The facility is the only indoor range in the city and offers a hybrid class where the coursework is online, and the live fire is, of course in person. NM has a 15 hour requirement so I am confused how the program works having never taken the online class myself. I do not think that the state should have such stringent requirements. HOWEVER, If they are going to have requirements in place for "public safety" the online programs bring up the following concerns for me:
1. Identity of the participant. Photo ID's are verified in the classes that we hold. How can the facility/instructor be assured that the person completing the course work is in fact the student that will be applying for the permit?
2. The coursework. When we hold a class we have a state approved outline. When presented properly we use the entire 15 hours mandated by law and often go over. Is the online course work timed? If so, does the student HAVE to take 20 minutes to complete a portion that at their individual capacity could complete in 5? If so, what do they do for the 15 remaining minutes? If they may continue at their own pace how is the course in compliance with statute.
3. The most important detail. Is the student really keeping the information for even 5 minutes after the coursework? As many instructors here may agree, when you lecture or read for long periods of time you look out to an endless gaze by many students. Are students retaining this information?
4. Is this ethical? In person you can address questions, stimulate conversation and ensure that people are getting the right message.
Personally, I don't think i'd want to offer an online training program for students. While it would certainly make my business more profitable I prefer the physical class.
1. Identity of the participant. Photo ID's are verified in the classes that we hold. How can the facility/instructor be assured that the person completing the course work is in fact the student that will be applying for the permit?
2. The coursework. When we hold a class we have a state approved outline. When presented properly we use the entire 15 hours mandated by law and often go over. Is the online course work timed? If so, does the student HAVE to take 20 minutes to complete a portion that at their individual capacity could complete in 5? If so, what do they do for the 15 remaining minutes? If they may continue at their own pace how is the course in compliance with statute.
3. The most important detail. Is the student really keeping the information for even 5 minutes after the coursework? As many instructors here may agree, when you lecture or read for long periods of time you look out to an endless gaze by many students. Are students retaining this information?
4. Is this ethical? In person you can address questions, stimulate conversation and ensure that people are getting the right message.
Personally, I don't think i'd want to offer an online training program for students. While it would certainly make my business more profitable I prefer the physical class.
Valid points Anthony but here are some things to be mindful of.
1. Obviously you teach in a state with very strict rules which is unfortunate because the 2nd Amendment Right clearly indicates its a RIGHT however I believe whether a state has strict rules or not Online Portions of the classes are very much useful.
If Large Universities don't have many of the issues you are worried about coming to surface then its clear that it can work...obviously some protocols may be needed especially in strict states but if "higher learning" can be done online for the theory portion of those classes the same can be done for firearm classroom portions.
Many ways are available for LIVE online classes to be conducted using simple and cost effective web based software that not only allows an instructor to teach in real time but to even allow students to "raise hands" to ask questions in real time as well...same kinds of interactive teaching software that major corporations actually teach full on "employee" training over a weekend that requires lessons, feed back and even timed testing variables!
The technology that safe guards that is available.
2. Again your in a state that is very strict on its guidelines but there is a large portion of states that do not have requirements for instructors to provide "course outlines" etc. to be approved prior to teaching the curriculum...so why should they not be allowed to use the technology available?
Iowa, Colorado and many other states do not have any governing body that has to check the curriculum being taught and I would see fit that those states in particular being allowed and using more online training methods as its proven daily in many lines of work/training to increase student comprehension and therefore retention is also increased significantly!
3. Ethical...absolutely!
Many on here would be surprised just how much ONLINE schooling is being done in MANY fields of study that would normally be considered "hands on only" approaches in the past. The time has long come where e-learning has been proven to be more beneficial and far more retention attained by students.
Is it any more ethical for an instructor to do a poor job of teaching LIVE in class courses than someone who is able to teach far more effectively allowing more retention and comprehension but doing so online?
The question of ethics is not something that should be part of the equation about online or video based learning as the NRA themselves have many courses taught in this manner already!
Not to mention the Video Tools that many of us use to teach certain aspects of the class provided by the NRA because its in better detail than trying to do so on our own.
The revolver/semi-auto procedures are great examples of why the video is perfect to use as it can be on a screen which can be seen by the entire class with complete instruction versus doing the same thing at the front of a class where all the angles etc. cannot be seen by everyone in the class itself.
In short, those states that allow Online Courses are benefiting more people than those that don't. Additional, even those that don't allow Online Courses to be used in their state there is simply PURE LOGIC that offering parts of the "theory portion" of the class online which CAN allow full student interaction if desired in real time is actually more beneficial because then the student shows up EDUCATED and ready for the practical portion of the LIVE fire course.
It really just appears to be personal opinions and of course plenty of "pride and tradition" that seems to be holding back the growth of firearm instruction in most cases.
There is nothing wrong with doing something a different way as long as the message is clear and allows for students to not only comprehend the info supplied but retain it.
The cost associated with traveling to a class include: time to and from, gas/mileage on the car, possible parking fees and some of the personal aspects of saving money because daycare or a baby sitter to take care of the kids is no longer an issue (not to mention those without transportation of living in close proximity) are all variables to consider when "ethics" and "solid business practices" are to be considered.
We owe it to our students to provide the most up to date information and be able to present it in a way that is most useful to THEM and they way they prefer to learn...that means doing things that don't always conform to "the usual way" of doing it.
It may not work for every instructor and in every state which is why this is a topic that is far to vague to debate...if you look at if from a pragmatic and objective aspect it matters not what state your in as its a profound way of getting part if not all of the requirements met so the student is educated.
That is the end result.
1. Obviously you teach in a state with very strict rules which is unfortunate because the 2nd Amendment Right clearly indicates its a RIGHT however I believe whether a state has strict rules or not Online Portions of the classes are very much useful.
If Large Universities don't have many of the issues you are worried about coming to surface then its clear that it can work...obviously some protocols may be needed especially in strict states but if "higher learning" can be done online for the theory portion of those classes the same can be done for firearm classroom portions.
Many ways are available for LIVE online classes to be conducted using simple and cost effective web based software that not only allows an instructor to teach in real time but to even allow students to "raise hands" to ask questions in real time as well...same kinds of interactive teaching software that major corporations actually teach full on "employee" training over a weekend that requires lessons, feed back and even timed testing variables!
The technology that safe guards that is available.
2. Again your in a state that is very strict on its guidelines but there is a large portion of states that do not have requirements for instructors to provide "course outlines" etc. to be approved prior to teaching the curriculum...so why should they not be allowed to use the technology available?
Iowa, Colorado and many other states do not have any governing body that has to check the curriculum being taught and I would see fit that those states in particular being allowed and using more online training methods as its proven daily in many lines of work/training to increase student comprehension and therefore retention is also increased significantly!
3. Ethical...absolutely!
Many on here would be surprised just how much ONLINE schooling is being done in MANY fields of study that would normally be considered "hands on only" approaches in the past. The time has long come where e-learning has been proven to be more beneficial and far more retention attained by students.
Is it any more ethical for an instructor to do a poor job of teaching LIVE in class courses than someone who is able to teach far more effectively allowing more retention and comprehension but doing so online?
The question of ethics is not something that should be part of the equation about online or video based learning as the NRA themselves have many courses taught in this manner already!
Not to mention the Video Tools that many of us use to teach certain aspects of the class provided by the NRA because its in better detail than trying to do so on our own.
The revolver/semi-auto procedures are great examples of why the video is perfect to use as it can be on a screen which can be seen by the entire class with complete instruction versus doing the same thing at the front of a class where all the angles etc. cannot be seen by everyone in the class itself.
In short, those states that allow Online Courses are benefiting more people than those that don't. Additional, even those that don't allow Online Courses to be used in their state there is simply PURE LOGIC that offering parts of the "theory portion" of the class online which CAN allow full student interaction if desired in real time is actually more beneficial because then the student shows up EDUCATED and ready for the practical portion of the LIVE fire course.
It really just appears to be personal opinions and of course plenty of "pride and tradition" that seems to be holding back the growth of firearm instruction in most cases.
There is nothing wrong with doing something a different way as long as the message is clear and allows for students to not only comprehend the info supplied but retain it.
The cost associated with traveling to a class include: time to and from, gas/mileage on the car, possible parking fees and some of the personal aspects of saving money because daycare or a baby sitter to take care of the kids is no longer an issue (not to mention those without transportation of living in close proximity) are all variables to consider when "ethics" and "solid business practices" are to be considered.
We owe it to our students to provide the most up to date information and be able to present it in a way that is most useful to THEM and they way they prefer to learn...that means doing things that don't always conform to "the usual way" of doing it.
It may not work for every instructor and in every state which is why this is a topic that is far to vague to debate...if you look at if from a pragmatic and objective aspect it matters not what state your in as its a profound way of getting part if not all of the requirements met so the student is educated.
That is the end result.
That was a great response. I do appreciate the opinion and again I feel that it is a RIGHT and the standards of instruction in my state are overbearing. However, as indicated on the first post if the standards are law then there should be safeguards in place to ensure compliance. Which there may very well be. Having never taken an online or "distance learning" course especially not related to firearms I cannot comment on the delivery of the material. Merely that it is outside of the norm in our industry. I have no issue with the facility offering this training because it may help citizens obtain their permits when a traditional course may not have met their logistical (time/travel) needs.
Since this is the first of its kind in our state we'll see how it goes. It is great that they are willing to step outside the box and try new things and who knows maybe in a few years we'll be online too. For now though I like the physical classes.
I truly enjoy the in person experience as a student and instructor but with technology these days...online connects us to many more people in a way never before available.
How do we propose getting more firearm owners let alone more certified to carry...traditional ways are working but very slowly and often at the assumption that its the "ultra macho guns blazing" type of instructor that really puts many people off especially older adults and women.
My approach to In Person classes is very unique and very non-intimidating as I add a large element of "entertainment" in the sense of how I present the course while still offering not just what the average NRA Instructor will offer but of course the additional info that many either do not bother or do not have the additional knowledge of.
My classes are nearing 60/40 in terms of male/female ratios and I have a large number of older adults along with the "freshly 21" students that are being referred just because of the refreshing way I teach.
I use my personal background and added education to my advantage but coming across that I am "sharing" information that is valuable versus the usual aspects of "listen I am the one with the certifications here" is a huge asset along with how the instruction is supplied.
I'm using various methods that allow people of all LEARNING types to grasp the much needed info that is pertinent to firearm safety and personal protection and as we all know its tough to keep the attention of people during long monotone "same old" lecture methods that offer LITTLE interaction with the student.
A student that is present in body is not necessarily one that is present in "mind"...we have all been there from high school to the long drawn out verbal bashing that parents tend to give their kids (unless your me and you get your ass whipped first which definitely perks you up) and they simply "tune them out".
Any form of instruction be it with or without practical application in person or online is going to have its lulls and people tuning out...the fact remains that MOST people are accustomed to being entertained by way of Television and MANY are being educated by top universities using Computers.
Using that tech to our advantage is a key principle that will allow us to connect with more people that may not necessarily have an interest or who may finally come off the fence now that there is a unique way of learning something in a less intimidating fashion than what most Instructors can present in person.
I'm happy to hear NM doing this and I wish firearm instruction organizations would also be more astute in realizing the ONLINE potential for its instructors...it seems to be that its OK for them to do it but not the instructor which is really not fair at all.
There needs to be more National Firearm Instruction Organizations out there that are recognized so that particular ones do not have the ability to create rules around their own beliefs that do not necessarily fit 100% with those that are keeping them in business.
We don't shoot guns like "duelers" once did in the past, we do not even use the same pistols of that age so why not allow change in how we present the information to students seeing as that is the new format that is most commonly used and the greater fact that its a 2nd Amendment RIGHT to bare arms in the first place!
Governing bodies should not have sole discretion to dictate how an instructor can relay the same information so much as that it relays accurate and beneficial information in formats that conform to various learning preferences of the student.
...now that would be progress!
J.
How do we propose getting more firearm owners let alone more certified to carry...traditional ways are working but very slowly and often at the assumption that its the "ultra macho guns blazing" type of instructor that really puts many people off especially older adults and women.
My approach to In Person classes is very unique and very non-intimidating as I add a large element of "entertainment" in the sense of how I present the course while still offering not just what the average NRA Instructor will offer but of course the additional info that many either do not bother or do not have the additional knowledge of.
My classes are nearing 60/40 in terms of male/female ratios and I have a large number of older adults along with the "freshly 21" students that are being referred just because of the refreshing way I teach.
I use my personal background and added education to my advantage but coming across that I am "sharing" information that is valuable versus the usual aspects of "listen I am the one with the certifications here" is a huge asset along with how the instruction is supplied.
I'm using various methods that allow people of all LEARNING types to grasp the much needed info that is pertinent to firearm safety and personal protection and as we all know its tough to keep the attention of people during long monotone "same old" lecture methods that offer LITTLE interaction with the student.
A student that is present in body is not necessarily one that is present in "mind"...we have all been there from high school to the long drawn out verbal bashing that parents tend to give their kids (unless your me and you get your ass whipped first which definitely perks you up) and they simply "tune them out".
Any form of instruction be it with or without practical application in person or online is going to have its lulls and people tuning out...the fact remains that MOST people are accustomed to being entertained by way of Television and MANY are being educated by top universities using Computers.
Using that tech to our advantage is a key principle that will allow us to connect with more people that may not necessarily have an interest or who may finally come off the fence now that there is a unique way of learning something in a less intimidating fashion than what most Instructors can present in person.
I'm happy to hear NM doing this and I wish firearm instruction organizations would also be more astute in realizing the ONLINE potential for its instructors...it seems to be that its OK for them to do it but not the instructor which is really not fair at all.
There needs to be more National Firearm Instruction Organizations out there that are recognized so that particular ones do not have the ability to create rules around their own beliefs that do not necessarily fit 100% with those that are keeping them in business.
We don't shoot guns like "duelers" once did in the past, we do not even use the same pistols of that age so why not allow change in how we present the information to students seeing as that is the new format that is most commonly used and the greater fact that its a 2nd Amendment RIGHT to bare arms in the first place!
Governing bodies should not have sole discretion to dictate how an instructor can relay the same information so much as that it relays accurate and beneficial information in formats that conform to various learning preferences of the student.
...now that would be progress!
J.
It's the same way here in Arizona, as you can take a one hour Hunter Safety Course and get a Concealed Carry permit.
Technically there are many states where you can offer a 5 Minute tutorial on a specific firearm during purchase (I heard rumor of a gun shop that has a staff with instructor creds doing this...not sure if its true) and it will satisfy the requirements because many states including Iowa do not have specific curriculum, time or instructional methods written in the statutes.
I'm not sure how Hunter Safety Course have anything to do with Conceal Carry but if we can allow that to pass the grade then it brings the point of pushing for more states to have Constitutional Carry.
That way people are getting educated by choice rather than force which usually means greater comprehension/retention and intention of the student learning!
Its America...even the reciprocity between states is highly political and often monetarily charged.
I'm not sure how Hunter Safety Course have anything to do with Conceal Carry but if we can allow that to pass the grade then it brings the point of pushing for more states to have Constitutional Carry.
That way people are getting educated by choice rather than force which usually means greater comprehension/retention and intention of the student learning!
Its America...even the reciprocity between states is highly political and often monetarily charged.
Mojo...why would you take another course?
Most courses (including all of mine) that will cover Oregon, Arizona, Virginia etc. that are ONLINE or In Class options are usually used to apply for the persons LOCAL state permit and Arizona.
Those that take my online course or in class course in Iowa for example will simply make another copy of their original certificate and apply following the directions/requirements for Arizona after they did the same for the Iowa permit separately.
I'm not sure why you would pay for two separate courses when ONE course should allow you to then apply for the Arizona permit as well.
J
Most courses (including all of mine) that will cover Oregon, Arizona, Virginia etc. that are ONLINE or In Class options are usually used to apply for the persons LOCAL state permit and Arizona.
Those that take my online course or in class course in Iowa for example will simply make another copy of their original certificate and apply following the directions/requirements for Arizona after they did the same for the Iowa permit separately.
I'm not sure why you would pay for two separate courses when ONE course should allow you to then apply for the Arizona permit as well.
J
mojoman
New member
Ahhhhh, I didn't know this and I was thinking that each states have there own class that they will take. So the online class that I took for Oregon I didn't think that AZ will recognize Oregon online class just Oregon. Is this right to think that one want recognize the other or can I take the ones that I have now and use them for all of the other states?
I'm a bit confused here. You think a 5 minute tutorial on a specific firearm would be enough to get a Concealed Carry Permit, but not an hour long Hunter Safety course that actually covers the 4 basic safety rules of firearms along with other aspects of firearm use like Sight picture, sight alignment, breathing, trigger control, follow through? Even though this is a "No Permit" State I wish there was a tighter control on training for those that DO want a CCW permit.
In a classroom setting, if a student "isn't' there" a good instructor will know it fairly quickly and deal with the situation. Throw a book, ask a question, whatever.
You can watch all the videos and read all you want, but the only way you can improve skill with a firearm (or any other means of defense) is to actually get out there and do it.
Training that doesn't incorporate practice is (in my opinion and I could be wrong) next to worthless.
You can watch all the videos and read all you want, but the only way you can improve skill with a firearm (or any other means of defense) is to actually get out there and do it.
Training that doesn't incorporate practice is (in my opinion and I could be wrong) next to worthless.
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