OK, You have a CCW. When NOT to use it?

[krmgator]

I was thinking today; you have a CCW, you carry legally and you are proficient with your firearm.

Now, what situation or situations would arise that would you make you think twice about drawing your weapon? I know we practice and are ready, but when would you be better off holding off on bearing?

 

[Captvideo]

I have learned that one who is licensed to carry must have as much, or more resolve in their head as they do in being proficient with their firearm. I wouldn't bear if I were just mad, or expecially in most 'third party' situations. If I were in the back of a convience store and two guys entered with the intentions or rob the place and pulled a weapon, and I was carrying, what should I do? I think that 'pre-thinking' is on order here but I wouldn't have much choice if one of them came towards me with a weapon and obviously were going to us it. So, in short, it depends.
I've been told by professionals that it is better to be a good witness than to try and intervene. If possible, retreat to the back of the store, go out the back, in the bathroom, the cooler, the office, or anywhere that's out of sight of the robber(s). If they have seen you, and sometimes they scope out the place before bearing, and notice that you have gone, they will either look for you or leave quicker. If you are, say, in the bathroom calling 911, you would have the advantage if they were to come back to look for you. Do what you have to do. If you are at the front counter, back off and if confronted, say something like 'hey, I don't have anything in this', stay very still, and hold your hands up, give them your wallet if they ask for it, etc. Remember that their fear level is above their ears so don't make any sudden moves. If they start shooting people in the store, which is unlikely since they only want the money, then you must try to protect yourself. Even a cop would call for backup outside so it would most likely be a mistake to 'play cop' inside by yourself.
In a 'third party situation, like an a parking lot, you come out of a store and see a man shoot another, how do you know that he isn't an off-duty officer, or another CCW person like you that was just confronted by deadly force? Now, if they start directing that smoke wagon at you, that's another story if you have the space and time to draw your CCW. And remember that you are responsible for all damages or deaths that would occur near or behind this person.
You better think twice, and be mentally trained to think twice very quickly. Good question

 

[2beararms]

Obviously that is a hugely subjective question, however, I think the simple guidelines of CCW give a relative answer. Of course what you should do and what you WILL do also may be very different. And of course this is only my opinion and I am certain will not be agreed upon by everyone.

CCW is not gunslinger, psudo cop, or crazy guy. CCW is a means of self-defense if a threat comes to you. You should never go to the threat unless it is in aid to another life that is already under threat. Even if the law in your area has eliminated the DUTY of retreat, retreat should still be option one. You are not there to apprehend a bad guy.

Many see anything beyond about 20 feet as the limit for CCW defense unless you are under direct fire. Of course, in reality, WHY would someone be shooting at you from beyond that. The major reason for using a weapon is defense in robbery or assault, both of which are close contact sports.

Many like to practice tactical shooting but again, in CCW is it realistic? When will you ever need to advance on a target? If the target is retreating, your job is to let it retreat, that stops the threat for you and that is your ONLY purpose. Getting to and stopping the bad guy "in case" he may cause more mayhem at a future location is a police action, not a CCW action and may be called murder under many conditions.

If you are sitting in your office and hear gunshots down the block, grabbing your gun and going to "stop the violence" is actually not an authorized act under CCW self-defense. Does that mean you are not going to do it ??? Unknown, but it is important to realize that if you do, you may be on your own in the legal sense. Again CCW is NOT psudo police power and the threat must come to you, you cannot go to the threat.

Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately we are human and we respond to triggers to help our fellow man. (mine is a five year old girl crying "I want my mommy", seems moving heaven and earth is not too big a task to respond to that.) So if I hear a woman scream in the next alleyway and I am armed am I going to go check it out? That is making me go to the threat ... but that is where I am going to go ... but at least I will know that at that moment my role may be considered defending vigilante rather than legal protected CCW permit holder, but that is a chance likely worth taking. We are talking a potential life risk.

But if I hear I person screaming they just took my wallet and see two thugs with guns run around the corner, am I going to draw down and yell freeze? NO! Not unless they decide to point the guns at me. There is no threat and I am not there to protect his property.

Someone trys to drag you out of your car ... shoot them if you can. Someone jumps in and drives off with your empty car from a parking space ... watch them, get a description and call police. Popping a few rounds after them will just get you in deep trouble.

Everything is "Imminnent threat or stopping a forcible felony". It must be happening then, it must not be retreating, and it must be happening to you or a human near you. No chasing the robbers out of the store. No getting in your car and having a gun fight during a vehicle persuit. No tactical moves down vacant hallways trying to find the bad guys after they ran into some building.

If you want to be a cop, then become a cop, but CCW is defense only and the best defense is simply common sense!

 

[HootmonSccy]

Outstanding responses folks.. Thanx for taking the time to provide examples and thoughts...

 

[Wolfling68]

I will not draw ever.
The only exceptions to this rule are where I am willing to spend the rest of my life in jail for killing someone...........or foreign invasion, of course.

 

[VA9mm]

I carry my firearm to protect my life or a family member. I will not intervene on behalf of anyone with a firearm 95% of the time there are to many legal and civil ramifications that follow. Here is a good read on the subject of intervention.

I agree with everything that Evan said in this commentary. This is from his site Commentary by Evan Marshall

 

[Metric]

I agree, I carry to protect my family and myself. I would think, re-think and then think again before drawing to help someone, unless their death was going to be the outcome. Discression is called for at all times.. Very hard question to answer, key is being prepaird in any surcustance. practice, practice, practice. Remaining calm results from practice.

Metric.....

 

[CathyInBlue]

I've long since vowed to myself that if I draw my sidearm, it will be because I've already decided that someone within reach of my senses and my sidearm deserves to die. If you're just being a prick verbally and even with a little light physical insult to me or mine, fine, you still deserve to live, and my sidearm stays in the back office.

If you start getting violent to the point I fear your imminent attack for the purpose of inflicting grave bodily harm or death upon me or mine, here comes my revolver. He has something he needs to tell you.

If I even present my sidearm, it will be because the threat it will be addressing is already clearly imminent.

 

[mungo]

IMHO, the CCW guidelines are liberally slanted. I firmly believe if you wait and go through the length decision tree the CCW class provides, the threat will be over and someone you love may be hurt. They have conditioned us to be afraid to draw our weapons. If you act in a reasonable manner (i.e. you felt your life was in danger) in your decision to draw/fire, then I can't see a reasonably prudent jury convicting you of any crime.

There are levels of alertness that have been defined. By the time I have gotten to Condition Red, I have already drawn a line in the sand. If that trigger (no pun intended) is set, then I am going to react in a certain way.

I can't sit here and define when I'll draw and when I will not. I will be more inclined to draw if I am protecting my family. I will be less inclined to draw if I am by myself. But there are so many elements that would determine my readiness to draw. Time of day, feel of situation, who is with me, environment, etc... All of these would come into my decision to present with deadly force. But this decision would be made as the threat materializes, not at the moment of draw.

Just my $0.02.

 

[Boomboy007]

Excellent point, Cathy.....

I've long since vowed to myself that if I draw my sidearm, it will be because I've already decided that someone within reach of my senses and my sidearm deserves to die. If you're just being a prick verbally and even with a little light physical insult to me or mine, fine, you still deserve to live, and my sidearm stays in the back office.

If you start getting violent to the point I fear your imminent attack for the purpose of inflicting grave bodily harm or death upon me or mine, here comes my revolver. He has something he needs to tell you.

If I even present my sidearm, it will be because the threat it will be addressing is already clearly imminent.

I think that Cathy has it spot on: You pull prepared and expecting to use the firearm immediately. If, in the second or two (or more) between drawing and firing, the bad guy decides that retreat is in order, then he will have saved his own life. If he has a contact weapon, like a bat or a knife, then simple retreat will do. If he has a firearm, I hope that he has dropped the weapon, or at the very least, does not turn around.

 

[krmgator]

I guess I should have offered my own thoughts as well when I posed the question. I'm telling you though, some of these answers are awesome.

For me, having a CCP and choosing to carry concealed brings with it responsibility. First and foremost, home and personal (including family) defense. I agree, if I see one person shoot another or witness a crime, I run for the nearest safe place and call 911.

But an interesting point was also brought up--don't carry unless you know that in a life or death situation, you will use the weapon. You would probably be better off not carrying at all.

 

[utimmer43]

One thing we need to realize is that we can all, from the comfort of our computer chairs, speculate how we would or would not react in a certain situation. Our true reaction or lack thereof may differ wildly than the way we think we would react. If/ when the time comes, there will not likely be time to ponder the legal ramifications. If you do draw, it will have been because you had to draw, not because you thought you had to draw.

Something else to consider is that your post here may be used against you. If you say you would not draw/ fire unless X-Y-Z, and then IRL your instinctive reaction was to draw/ fire at less than X-Y-Z, a particularly zealous DA could have a field day with you even if IRL you felt you were facing an imminent threat.

 

[MikeVodka]

everyone on this thread is on the money.

After we have trained physically, mentally, and legally; and we are as ready as we will ever be the only thing left is to have faith in our own actions. If you stand ready to defend your self and those around you than all the tough decisions have already been made. Have faith that you will call every situation as you see it and have faith that any split second decision you make will be right. The only thing you can do now is stay ready and don't over think it.

 

[HootmonSccy]

One thing we need to realize is that we can all, from the comfort of our computer chairs, speculate how we would or would not react in a certain situation. Our true reaction or lack thereof may differ wildly than the way we think we would react. If/ when the time comes, there will not likely be time to ponder the legal ramifications. If you do draw, it will have been because you had to draw, not because you thought you had to draw.

I think most people would make good decisions on the pull / not pull.. It is amazing to me how hard it is to find in the news stories about CCW holders utilizing their weapons..
I think maybe the hard thing is not letting the adrenaline carry you away like what happened to the drug store owner(another post).. to get to the point to pull, then fire, then the BG retreats, to not chase them at that point because of the adrenaline rush, and all the TV and Movies we have all seen.. This is where the discipline is likely to break down IMHO..

Once again, I have found this discussion very helpful as a mental exercise in my mind..
Thanx

 

[kelcarry]

New to site and impressed by replies on this thread. Do not perceive any "Dirty Harrys" among the members on this thread. In South Carolina, where I reside, we have the castle doctrine, and from news accounts it appears to be liberally interpreted by our solicitors to the extreme benefit of the homeowner--if you forcibly enter a house where you do not belong, a homeowner who is fearful for their life and the lives of their family can shoot and kill you and not be prosecuted. It is outside the home as you carry that the previous replies were right on--retreat and do anything you can to avoid confrontation--anything else carries far-reaching realities both criminal and civil. I look forward to reading these threads and learning about user-carry responsibilites and situations that, hopefully, along with perfecting my shooting and carrying competency, complete my self defense abilities.

 

[HootmonSccy]

Welcome KelCarry from Tampa Bay Floriduh...

 

[GHF]

My Three Steps

1. You Need to Get Your Mind Right. This is where you come to grips and make your peace with the fact that you are carrying the power of life and death. You need to walk through the various scenarios for what will happen before, during, and after, to be prepared for the entire event.

You can not put off getting yourself ready. There are no RSVPs to gun/knife/club fights. Even if you avoid going anywhere where there might be a violent confrontation - unless the government sends you there - that does not mean you will not be in one; the other side has a vote on creating a violent confrontation for their own reason(s). You must be ready beforehand for the event and the aftermath. If you have not gotten past this step, you can not deal with Steps 2 and 3 clearly, and you are setting yourself all of the emotional issues that will come your way if you are carrying ANY weapon - gun/knife/club - and use it.

2. You Have to Know Where the Bright Line to Act Is. At what point can you legally stop the threat.

You must know at what point under what circumstances deadly force is appropriate. This is not something you can figure out at the time, you must have internalized it before it the event starts, much like what you do when you drive your car on ice, for example. Each state is different, so you must be well-versed in any state you are in, and every separate kind of situation (home/domicile, car, outside home/car, etc.) that is possible. You must automatically and immediately know when the line is crossed.

3. There can be NO hesitation as soon as the opportunity/shot is cleared tactically after the Bright Line has been and remains crossed. As John Bernard Books - John Wayne's character in his last movie The Shootist stated - You Must Be WILLING.

"It isn't always being fast or even accurate that counts, it's being willing. I found out early that most men, regardless of cause or need, aren't willing. They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull a trigger. I won't."

You can not be looking for wiggle room or a gray area here. The threat exists, and needs to be stopped. Looking for a Third Middle Compromise Solution leads to hesitation, which will lead to you not dealing with your responsibilities in a timely manner. It is you - not the person or persons presenting the threat - that you are responsible for.

 

[kelcarry]

Hey BoomBoy007: Your quote of Thomas Jefferson hit home in a big way. It seems that everytime I read the papers and see our one party govenment doing whatever it wants regardless of criticism and the opinions of at least 49% of the populace and regardless of the consequences that will bring this country to its knees, I want to go out and buy a new gun. I just day ream about the day when a particularly aggressive ACORN person or stupid democrat comes to my door and threatens me as I tell them what I think of them. If I am real lucky it won't just be words but more specific overt actions that truly endanger me as they force their way into my home. Then again its just a dream.

 

[Atstewart1]

In Georgia where I have a CCL, the rule of thumb is "if any reasonable person in the same circumstances would believe their life is threatened," then deadly force is justifiable. Also, three factors go into this definition of "life being threatened." 1. The other person or persons have the ability to kill you. i.e.There are three of them and one of you. They had a deadly weapon like a bat, or knife, or just fists if they are must larger than you. 2. They have the opportunity to kill you. The person is close enough to actually harm you. If they are 100 yards away, you would not be justified in shooting them even if they met condition 1. Usually 30 feet or closer is considered close enough to someone to either shoot you or get to you in less that 3 seconds to inflict harm on you with their bare hands. 3. They must be intent on harming you. A person may meet condition 1 and 2 but not have any intention on harming you. They may show their intent in various ways. i.e. They may say, "I'm going to kill you!" They may banish their firearm. They may not stop approaching you when you command them to stop. If you sense a threat from a person approaching you and you command them to stop and they do not stop, this indicates their intent on harming you. Why else would they not stop and keep their distance? You may also read their body language and it shouts anger and murderous intent. Note all three conditions must be met. If anyone of them is missing you will probably not be justifiable in using deadly force.

When all three of these conditions are met, then any reasonable person in your circumstance would believe their life to be threatened. In Georgia there is no duty to retreat law, but I think if there is any way to avoid a gun fight, take it. You will always have two fights. The gun fight, then the legal fight afterwards. Even if the law says you were justifiable, the family of the person you shot may sue you in civil court.

 

[utimmer43]

I think it's funny that you copied you first post to the site, and pasted it as your second post to the site. But then, that does point out that we have a redundancy in topics. Funny how that happens.