Officer Safety?

[Axeanda45]

I have been wondering lately about what, if any "Real" authority an officer has to disarm someone who has, because of the stupid (in my opinion) "notify" law, told an officer he/she is armed... To put it more plainly, let me give you a scenario.......

I, a legal law abiding citizen of OH with a CCW permit have been pulled over for, let's say... speeding. For further clarity, let's say I was clocked at 59 in a 55mph zone...

My question involves the following: The officer comes to my window, which is down, my hands are on the steering wheel, and I am also holding in my hands my DL, and my CCW... As soon as possible I notify that I have a CCW and am currently armed. At this point, I have given NO indication of any aggression, I have been polite (yes sir/no sir, etc..) Does the officer have any LEGAL authority to disarm me? (remember here, we are only talking of OHIO's laws)


My thoughts on this are that it is much better and safer for ALL involved to leave my weapon holstered where it is rather than handle it at all....

 

[The_Outlaw]

That's a good question...
Seems to me that it's probably best to just follow the officers instructions.
No real reason to not cooperate with the officers demands i.m.h.o.
I would also ask if I could clear my sidearm first.

 

[NavyLCDR]

The Supreme Court has upheld that during ANY detention arising from reasonable and articulable suspicion (IE: Terry Stop or traffic stop), and the officer has reasonable cause to believe the subject is armed and dangerous, they have the right to frisk you for weapons, search the immediate area from which a weapon may be obtained, and temporarily confiscate weapons found for the duration of the stop, all without consent required.

So, the key point becomes the "and dangerous" part. To my knowledge, when the stop was ligimate, there has only been one court ruling that has ever seperated armed from dangerous, and that was an Indiana State Supreme Court ruling that was exactly the situation you described. To my knowledge, though, no other court has ever separated "armed" from "dangerous".

 

[Supernois]

I have only had to deal with an officer once while carrying. My girlfriend and I were returning home from visiting some friends. We stopped for a red light and were rearended by a drunk. Ar it happens, a local cop was driving on the same road and stopped. I informed him that I have a CPL and I'm armed. All he wanted to know was where on my body the gun was. He didn't bother taking it. If was more concerned with the drunk.

 

[Elspeth]

Whether they have the RIGHT or not may be irrelevant...ask William Bartlett of Canton.

Of course, in his case, the officer was fired, but Mr. Bartlett spent some uncomfortable time with Officer Friendly and had to defend himself in court.

 

[Axeanda45]

I am asking on the thought that maybe I could refuse to allow them to disarm me......... IF they didnt have the LEGAL power or right to do so....

 

[jsu6179n]

Hey man, as a Police Officer. Just put yourself in my situation. If I knew everybody I stopped this would not be an issue, but just try to consider half the people I stop are not very thrilled about getting a ticket. I would much rather retain the weapon until I know exactly how they will act. If I pull someone over who is legally carrying and they were going 59 in a 55 (I wouldn't normally make that stop, but your vehicle could match a description you don't know about) but if your gun and permit are legal I would not give a ticket. But if I did give a ticket I'm not arguing with an armed citizen. That puts you and this officer in a very tense and very life threatening situation. Just obey the commands and don't argue. It is not to take away your rights in any way. The gun will be returned very momentarily and I have never seen anyone get robbed while on a traffic stop. You should be safe with the blue lights parked right behind you.

 

[tuts40]

I'm afraid the short answer here is "yes".

 

[Axeanda45]

Looks like the "legal" answer is that I have no grounds to refuse..... I dont like it, but it is what it is........

Still, logic/common sense would both agree that not touching the firearm to begin with is more safe than following anything the "officer" might want done with it.... Yet, the "excuse" they use is officer safety... what utter bull5hit...... What about MY safety????.


jsu6179n..... How about you put yourself in MY shoes... I have absolutely NO PROBLEM getting pulled over and ticketed as long as I am guilty of speeding (or whatever I was pulled over for).....

I am very respectful (as long they behave themselves and treat me like a human being....) whenever I get pulled over.

What I DO have a problem with is getting disarmed by one of my employees when I trust him less than he trusts me.... It goes BOTH WAYS dude, dont EVER forget that.... WE want to go home to our families at the end of the day too......

Disclaimer: In the 7 or 8 times I have had any dealings with officers since being licensed, I have never been asked to disarm.... and in every case they were made aware that I have a permit and was armed........

 

[ccwaz]

Why?

The problem we face is an anti-police attitude in this country. I understand that people are touchy about holding fast to our rights but we aren't at the place where the police are the enemy unless you are a criminal. Please back down from the belligerence toward these public servants who put their life on the line to protect you & yours every day. If we get do the point of having to go to arms to defend the Constitution most current police officers will be on your side.

 

[localgirl]

I think if you REALLY wanted to push the issue you could go so far as to say, not only is my weapon safer holstered, unholstering it is the first step towards shooting someone, and furthermore, what's to say you wouldn't shoot the second you got your weapon back?

It's kind of like the idea of no guns versus constitutional carry. On one hand you have people who say no guns = no gun deaths. And you know what, if you don't take it any further, they're right. On the other hand, you have constitutional carriers, who believe that we all should have the right to carry, and anyone who abuses that right will quickly be dispatched according to natural selection. Both of those ideas have problems. Both of those ideas involve risks.

By the same token, whether an officer asks you to disarm or not, there are just as many risks--they just present themselves in a different fashion. Like a lot of things, it comes down to the way an officer was trained, and his own psychology. If he feels that by disarming you, he ensures his personal safety, on some level he is right. But if he feels that asking you to keep holstered with hands in sight makes more sense, he's right, too. It's self-fulfilling prophecy--you follow orders, he feels safe, the situation doesn't escalate.

But it's also an illusion, because no matter what, if someone wants to cause you harm, they will.

 

[BulletTrainingLtd]

An officer on any legitimate contact with an Ohio Concealed Handgun Licensee may take the weapon for the duration of the contact and must return the weapon at the conclusion of the contact (unless a physical arrest is conducted)
If I've done my job correctly, I have a good idea of at least the owner of the car and if the owner is the driver and is an Ohio CHL, I will know before I even approach the car. The Canton officer did NOTHING right during the entire situation and was the worse example of Law Enforcement.

 

[Austin]

Generally when asked for your weapon it's so that the numbers can be ran on it. It's a privilege to carry concealed, not a right. Man up nancy.

 

[Axeanda45]

It's a privilege to carry concealed, not a right. Man up nancy.

Well, if that statement right there aint 100% bull5hit, I dont know what is......

The 2nd amendment is the SUPREME LAW of the land about firearms , and it doesnt say ANYTHING about how I have to bear my arms..... Concealed or Open, either are 100% lawful, period, end of frikking discussion "nancy"....

 

[Axeanda45]

An officer on any legitimate contact with an Ohio Concealed Handgun Licensee may take the weapon for the duration of the contact and must return the weapon at the conclusion of the contact (unless a physical arrest is conducted)
If I've done my job correctly, I have a good idea of at least the owner of the car and if the owner is the driver and is an Ohio CHL, I will know before I even approach the car. The Canton officer did NOTHING right during the entire situation and was the worse example of Law Enforcement.

Actually, I believe you are wrong here, as I interpret/read the ORC, it say's IF the person surrenders the firearm to the officer those things apply, I cannot find ANYWHERE in the ORC (Ohio revised code) that states I MUST surrender the firearm...
Could you please show me where in the ORC it say's that I MUST surrender my firearm? I truly want to know...

 

[rdc2co]

In regards to refusing...

I am asking on the thought that maybe I could refuse to allow them to disarm me......... IF they didnt have the LEGAL power or right to do so....

I don't know about Ohio, but here, if you refuse that, it will likely be looked at as an act of aggression (even though we all know there was no hostile intent whatsoever). Cops (unfortunately) sometimes get a big chip on their shoulder/power trip/itchy-trigger-finger-syndrome/etc. Sometimes it comes from having a bad experience, too.
By refusing, it might possibly be looked at as passive-aggressive behaviour, or resisting, or something like that. Whether is is or is not, if you get arrested, we all know how the courts can be, AND we all know that juries are often 'rigged' with die-hard liberal anti-gun fanatics. That might also pose a problem...
My comments here, BTW, are just hypothetical, too...cough, cough...

 

[rdc2co]

Good call...

Hey man, as a Police Officer. Just put yourself in my situation. If I knew everybody I stopped this would not be an issue, but just try to consider half the people I stop are not very thrilled about getting a ticket. I would much rather retain the weapon until I know exactly how they will act. If I pull someone over who is legally carrying and they were going 59 in a 55 (I wouldn't normally make that stop, but your vehicle could match a description you don't know about) but if your gun and permit are legal I would not give a ticket. But if I did give a ticket I'm not arguing with an armed citizen. That puts you and this officer in a very tense and very life threatening situation. Just obey the commands and don't argue. It is not to take away your rights in any way. The gun will be returned very momentarily and I have never seen anyone get robbed while on a traffic stop. You should be safe with the blue lights parked right behind you.

Agreed...the majority of the time, citizens don't see our side of it and what goes on on behind the scenes. I was just telling someone about two situations I have been stuck into myself.... Hey, everyone...we're not out to get you. Mostly, 'it's just business' really does apply.

 

[Fox Mountain JJ]

Some officers are pleasant people and some treat everyone they stop like a common criminal,being an ex truck driver I have experienced both.

 

[Razz24]

Respect the Law and the Law will respect you.

Hey man, as a Police Officer. Just put yourself in my situation. If I knew everybody I stopped this would not be an issue, but just try to consider half the people I stop are not very thrilled about getting a ticket. I would much rather retain the weapon until I know exactly how they will act. If I pull someone over who is legally carrying and they were going 59 in a 55 (I wouldn't normally make that stop, but your vehicle could match a description you don't know about) but if your gun and permit are legal I would not give a ticket. But if I did give a ticket I'm not arguing with an armed citizen. That puts you and this officer in a very tense and very life threatening situation. Just obey the commands and don't argue. It is not to take away your rights in any way. The gun will be returned very momentarily and I have never seen anyone get robbed while on a traffic stop. You should be safe with the blue lights parked right behind you.

I also was stopped for speeding my fault . I was stopped going 65 in a 35 MPH zone wasn't paying attention, Late formy appt. no excuse. The Fl. State trooper pulled me over and wanted to see my license and reg. I already had my hands on the steering wheel. And i told him that in order to show him my ID. in my right hip side pocket that i was a CCW and did not feel comfortable reaching for my wallet when my glock 30 .45 was attached to my right side under my shirt. Officer you tell me how you want me to handle this. He thanked me asked me to step outside my truck unsnapped his weapon not in a threating manner just as a precaution. Lifted up my shirt unholstered my glock,and took my DL and Reg. to run it he also run a check on my gun. As he returned to my truck , he handed my gun back to me slide open mag. out. He thanked me once again for my cooperation and gave me a verbal warning. I feel like he gave me a huge break. And really appreciated me telling him about my CCW and weapon on me. They have a tough job and i have a lot of respect for most law enforcement officers. He could have ripped me a new one. Respect Key Word .

 

[NavyLCDR]

He thanked me asked me to step outside my truck unsnapped his weapon not in a threating manner just as a precaution.

So, if you had unsnapped your weapon do you think "just as a precaution" and "not in a threatening manner" would fly in the presence of the police officer? Funny how he didn't feel the need to treat you like a dangerous criminal until you told him about your gun.

he also run a check on my gun.

If you had children with you, how would you feel about the officer taking the children back to the cruiser until he could check birth records and make sure they were who you said they were and that they were your children? After all, he had just as much reasonable suspicion that you were a kidnapper if you had children with you as that your gun was stolen. That would be OK right? For the safety of the children?

As he returned to my truck , he handed my gun back to me slide open mag. out.

So, he placed you, himself, and any innocent bystanders in more danger of a negligent discharge than they would have been if the gun was left in the holster? How many cops have been shot by people who have told them they have a gun before shooting them? I'll bet not that many.

He thanked me once again for my cooperation and gave me a verbal warning.
I feel like he gave me a huge break.

And treated you like he had suspicion that you were a dangerous criminal who had possibly stolen a gun.

They have a tough job and i have a lot of respect for most law enforcement officers. He could have ripped me a new one. Respect Key Word .

Sorry, I can't drag up much respect for officers who will take intimidating action towards a person because they inform them of the legal possession of an object, who will conduct searches with no reasonable suspicion of a crime committed even slightly related to the search, and who will place others in needless danger. There are quite a few jobs much more difficult and dangerous than being a police officer.