Oak Harbor, WA restaurant incident

[NavyLCDR]

This actually happened to me two weeks ago:
So, I was in Island Cafe from about 5:15 to 6:15 last night, minding my own business, eating alone. The food was great and the service was excellent. About 5:50 I see the waitress peek around the corner and look into our eating area. I figure she is just checking to see if drinks are full or something. About 5 minutes later a police car comes into the parking lot. And I think, "Here it comes."

Cop walks in and by me, then I get the tap on the shoulder, "Can you come with me?" "Sure"

Outside he asked if I was LEO. No.

Do you have a Concealed Pistol License. Yes.

Can I see it? Why?

Because you are required to show it to me. Why?

Because the law says you have to show it to me.
I am not required to show you my concealed pistol license because I am not carrying a concealed weapon.

Can I see it anyway? I guess. (Give him license)
.
Can I see real ID? (Give him Military ID) - big mistake, won't do that one again.

You are making people nervous and they are freaking out. OK?.....

Why don't you conceal your firearm? Because I am not required to.

Well people are freaking out. OK?.....

You could lose this (holding up CPL). For what? I am not doing anything illegal.

They are easy to take away. I am not doing anything illegal.

I wish you wouldn't give me an attitude. I am not giving you an attitude.

Well you are scaring people...
What if I just had orange hair...

(he interrupts) I wish you wouldn't give me an attitude.
Look, if I am breaking any law, just write me a citation, am I being detained? If they (motioning towards Island Cafe) ask me to leave, I will leave. They have not asked me to leave.

I would expect more from a lieutenant.

(I wish I would have been able to think more clearly, because I would have responded with, "Oh, you mean for me not to be upholding my oath to support and defend the Constitution?")

Instead I just repeated, am I being detained? If they ask me to leave, I will leave.

Writes down my name and SSN (dang military ID card), and gives me back everything. "Just go back inside."

I go back in and sit down and take a drink and another bite of steak. Cop comes back.

Do you want a to go box? Waitress behind him hands me the check.

Nope. I give her $20 tell her to keep the change and get ready to leave.

You can get a to go box. Nope, I was done anyway.

I walk out, get in my car and leave.


Also, during the conversation, two other police cars show up, so now we have three in the parking lot. To his credit, he KNEW I wasn't doing anything illegal. He did not ask to disarm me. I walked away with my gun carried as usual.

Followup: Island Cafe called me the next day and apologized for the incident, explained that they did not call the police, a customer did, explained they fully support citizen's rights to carry firearms; I, my family, my friends, and our firearms were welcome to come back - which we have, several times, without incident.

More here, if you're interested:
Link Removed

 

[Glock513]

If you have a CCW why open carry? Sounds like that is just asking for trouble.

 

[NavyLCDR]

If you have a CCW why open carry? Sounds like that is just asking for trouble.

Because I feel like the 2nd amendment to the US Constitution and the Washington State constitution state that the right to bear arms and self defense shall not be infringed upon. By requiring persons to pay a fee to obtain a license to bear arms and have the means available to defend themselves is infringing upon that right. I took an oath of office to support and defend the Constitution against ALL enemies foreign and DOMESTIC.

Therefore I choose to carry my sidearm the way that I feel the US and Washington State constitutions meant it to be carried - free and "uninfringed" upon. I only obtained the CPL to allow me to carry, legally, loaded inside vehicles and if I choose to wear something such as a coat or jacket, I don't have to worry about if my gun does become covered.

It's not asking for trouble, it's called exercising a right that is in grave danger of being denied.

 

[RDW]

Navylt,
It sounds to me like you handled the situation very well. Thank you for serving! Hats off to all the men and women in uniform.

 

[gogriz91]

My only gripe and what you may want to consider for future encounters is when it's apparent an LEO doesn't have a legal leg to stand they resort to intimidation or the adult equivalent of name calling. Implying you're not a professional as a commissioned officer in the Navy because you open carry is reprehensible and smacks of elitism and is a defamation of character in my book. I would also recommend to the owner of the restaurant that if he supports gun ownership the next time someone complains because they've seen someone OC or have printed a CC that they consider asking the sheep to leave if it makes them feel uneasy after all, it's not illegal...right? That would be supporting your right to carry, the cop walks up to the sheep and says "He's got a gun and it's not illegal, the manager says you can leave or you can stay." I know it doesn't happen like that in the real world but moving in that direction would be a long overdue education in Constitutional rights.

 

[Glock Fan]

I wonder what would have happened if you didn't have a CFP. I'm getting ready for a trip to WA state and from what I understand, I can (and will have to) OC for most of my trip (won't carry in Seattle).

I'm glad that the incident didn't result in you getting detained and the establishment contacted you to follow up on the incident.



gf

 

[NavyLCDR]

I would also recommend to the owner of the restaurant that if he supports gun ownership the next time someone complains because they've seen someone OC or have printed a CC that they consider asking the sheep to leave if it makes them feel uneasy after all, it's not illegal...right? That would be supporting your right to carry, the cop walks up to the sheep and says "He's got a gun and it's not illegal, the manager says you can leave or you can stay." I know it doesn't happen like that in the real world but moving in that direction would be a long overdue education in Constitutional rights.

The police were called without the restaurant management's knowledge.

I wonder what would have happened if you didn't have a CFP. I'm getting ready for a trip to WA state and from what I understand, I can (and will have to) OC for most of my trip (won't carry in Seattle).

Nothing would have happened if I did not have the CPL. Open carry in Washington is legal without a permit. You might want to check out the Washington section of opencarry.org. There is a PDF file there of our open carry pamphlet. However, the pamphlet does contain one mistake:

The pamphlet states that a firearm transported in a vehicle by a non-CPL holder must be unloaded and enclosed in a case. That is not true. A firearm transported in a vehicle by a non-CPL holder must be unloaded and not concealed on the person of anyone in the vehicle. It can be concealed within the vehicle, or in plain sight in the vehicle, even carried on the person if in plain sight (and unloaded) in the vehicle - but that is very tricky to ensure the gun is visible from outside the vehicle while on your person. If you have any more questions, you can PM me. I don't hesitate to open carry in Seattle at all, there is no difference in the enforceable laws in Seattle as there are in any other place in the state.

BTW, Glock Fan, if you mean by "the establishment being contacted" you mean my command - I have in my possession a photograph of my XO re-enlisting a sailor who is openly carrying his firearm at one of the city parks here - I don't think it would have been a problem

 

[spf159753]

I know open carry is a right,but is it prudent???
Concealing a firearm has it's advantages.
For one,it gives you the edge over the bad guys,so they don't know your armed,and it makes it harder for the bad guys to "Get the Drop on you",so to speak,if they don't know your armed.
Many cops have been killed,because of being at the wrong place at the wrong time(robbery in progress,while off duty),because they did a BAD job of concealing their firearm,so the crooks(Bad Guys) thought they were cops,and wasted them so there would be zero witness's.
I could go on,but I think you know what I mean.
I am all about the second amendment,and I too was in the U.S.Army at one time,
BUT is it prudent to carry open,I don't know.
But since I have a Washington State concealed Pistol permit,I always carry concealed!!!!
My choice,I guess.

Steve........

 

[ecocks]

Freedom of Choice - EXACTLY.

 

[Glock Fan]

BTW, Glock Fan, if you mean by "the establishment being contacted" you mean my command - I have in my possession a photograph of my XO re-enlisting a sailor who is openly carrying his firearm at one of the city parks here - I don't think it would have been a problem

What I meant is that I'm glad that the police didn't detain you (as in you get arrested, taken for a ride to the station and they figure things out later). By "establishment" I was talking about the restaurant managment contacting you to let you know that they support the 2A.

Reason I mention not OCing in Seattle is because a bunch of my buddies got hassled in Seattle. Though they weren't doing anything illegal, the LEO that hassled them didn't seem to know the law (or at least didn't care). One guy was arrested for "disturbing the peace" and taken down to the police station. Luckily, his other buddies were able to contact an attorney who straightened things out rather quickly. In the vehicle I'm planning on popping out the magazine and placing the pistol in the center console or glove box (depending on the kind of rental car I get). That should minimize being harassed by LE.

Thanks for the lead on the info at OCDO. I'll print it up and keep it with me.



gf

 

[Glock Fan]

I know open carry is a right,but is it prudent???
Concealing a firearm has it's advantages.
For one,it gives you the edge over the bad guys,so they don't know your armed,and it makes it harder for the bad guys to "Get the Drop on you",so to speak,if they don't know your armed.
Many cops have been killed,because of being at the wrong place at the wrong time(robbery in progress,while off duty),because they did a BAD job of concealing their firearm,so the crooks(Bad Guys) thought they were cops,and wasted them so there would be zero witness's.
I could go on,but I think you know what I mean.

Do you have any proof of this? Having been brainwashed by LEO that I work with, I used to subscribe to the same school of thought. After some research, I found that it wasn't the firearm that got the off duty LEO in trouble, but rather identifying clothing that was the culprit.

My choice,I guess.

I agree that it's a personal choice. I do understand that if one chooses to OC, they must be prepared for the possibility that they may be questioned by LEO, or experience a situation similar to what "NavyLT" did. I do concede that there's a "time and place" for example, I won't go and OC at a funeral or to the Easter sunrise service. I'm also fairly sensitive to OCing where there are a large number of children as it's more likely someone will make a "Man with a gun" call to 911. Other than that, if I'm out and about and in compliance with the law, I see no problem with OC. I find it a great opportunity to educate the public and see it as a way to show people that it's ok for law abiding citizens to carry a firearm. Think about the last time you heard of a BG committing a crime with a gun that was drawn from an OC holster. :wink:



gf

 

[spf159753]

I am from L.A. Calif. originally and just in L.A. alone there have been many cops killed because of being spotted as being cops
in off duty attire because of guns printing through their clothing. Media don't usually tell you the real story.
But I got it first hand by family members who retired from LAPD. And that's just one city.
When I was in Chicago,off duty cops didn't even try to conceal their guns very well,and they could be spotted as cops right away.
I understand your wanting to "educate" the general public,and it's your right to open carry if you want,that's your choice.
But there is that little something about being discrete,and being able to deploy your firearm in a surprise when an emergency happens,which may give you the upper hand.
That's just a thought though. I'm talking about the Tactical advantage of concealed carry,nothing else.
Sorry for any spelling errors,I'm really bad at spelling.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I firmly believe that most bad guys do place some value upon their own lives. That not only includes not getting shot and killed, but also means not going to federal prision for a long time over a couple of bucks. Therefore, I firmly believe that the vast majority of bg's, gang bangers, road ragers, etc. when given the choice of seeing an individual who is bold enough to carry their firearm openly for self protection or seeing another individual who apparantly does not have the means to protect themselves, that they will choose to just move on to an easier target.

I believe in this principal so firmly that I bet my life on it.

Historicaly, the element of surprise has always been an offensive tactic, while visible force has always been the defensive tactic of choice.

 

[Horace Hogsnort]

Though they weren't doing anything illegal, the LEO that hassled them didn't seem to know the law (or at least didn't care).gf

Get out the popcorn, same old crap.

 

[Lonewolf2810]

This is going to be an on going issue no matter. The choice to OC or CC is a personnel choice. Just always remember if you have a CCW permit and there is an issue with you OC'ing then all you need do is cover your weapon and you will be fine as long as you are not violating any local and or state and federal laws that may be posted. Just my 2 cents on the matter.

 

[Booga]

I wonder what would have happened if you didn't have a CFP. I'm getting ready for a trip to WA state and from what I understand, I can (and will have to) OC for most of my trip (won't carry in Seattle).

In a city dog park gathering I attended, someone arrived openly carrying his pistol. There were tons of dogs and kids. We were not hassled, no cops were called, and I didn't even see anyone steer clear of us.

Not everyone is instantly afraid of seeing a gun in public in Seattle. Still, it does pay to be prepared should you ever have that conversation with an officer.

 

[Scarecrow]

glad to see that the establishment recognizes the 2A and welcomes you and your guns. too bad though that so many people automatically think "bad guy" when they see a gun.. the media sure helps with that one...

 

[Mes0hemi]

One question I have is, Why did he hand you your military ID back and say, "Can I see some REAL ID ? The last I remember a military ID was real! I could understand if he asked if he could see an ID with your home address on it, and I am assuming that is why he wanted another form of ID.

 

[NavyLCDR]

One question I have is, Why did he hand you your military ID back and say, "Can I see some REAL ID ? The last I remember a military ID was real! I could understand if he asked if he could see an ID with your home address on it, and I am assuming that is why he wanted another form of ID.

He wanted to see "real ID" in addition to the CPL, because the CPL does not have a photograph. The military ID satisfied that. If I really wanted to push my point, though, I could have refused to show him anything, including the CPL, because a CPL was not required in that circumstance, and presentation of an ID is only required, if available, during a formal detention - and a formal detention requires resonable and articulable suspicion of criminal activity.

 

[FN1910]

I don't like the idea of having to have a CWP to carry a concealed firearm but I lilke even less the idea that I am committing a sin by carrying concealed. Seems like every time someone mentions carrying CC the pro OC crowd pipes up and starts accusing them of every possible stupid action there is. Even most states have that attitude that a true gentleman doesn't carry concealed or at least that is how most states view it. I am starting to belive the brady Bunch when they talk about OC as the extension of a man's penis.