NRA Instructor Shoots Student

[Rinkopr]

Ammunition in class??? Say it an't so....
Link Removed

 

[gunsite]

Unfortunately people with the most experience sometimes do the most stupidest things, no one is above the LAW or above GUN SAFETY...NO ONE. As an instructor/classroom teacher/range master... you need to be better than everyone else...ALL THE TIME.

 

[Glock Fan]

NRA gun instructor shoots student by accident
Instructor’s gun goes off, striking student in foot
Eloísa Ruano González Orlando Sentinel

12:24 a.m. EST, February 21, 2010

A gun instructor accidently shot a student in the foot Saturday during an NRA class to receive certification to carry a concealed weapon, Orlando police said.

Robert Frauman Jr., 50, was taken to Florida Hospital after instructor Michael Phillips' firearm discharged about 11:45 a.m., police said.

Phillips, 32, could not be reached for comment. The accident happened at Summit Church, located in a former movie theater near he Fashion Square mall.

The bullet went through a table before it hit Frauman, said Kristy-Lee Lawley, the church's communications director. She said Frauman, a member of the church, was "recovering well" and the bullet didn't break any bones.

Frauman was one of three students in the class, which was not a church-sponsored event, Lawley said. She said the church offered an upstairs conference room for free after some church members requested to have the class there. Lawley said the church is empty on Saturdays and this was the first class of its kind there.

"We won't be having anything like that in our church in the future," Lawley said.

The church with 2,500 members is headed by Pastor Isaac Hunter, son of the Rev. Joel Hunter, senior pastor of the Longwood-based megachurch Northland, A Church Distributed. The churches are not affiliated.

The NRA has a rule against bringing ammunition into a class, said Tom Wagner, a NRA instructor in Orlando who was not involved in Saturday's shooting. He said the association has "no problem yanking a certification if the rules are being broken."

This was not the first time something's gone wrong during a gun demonstration in Orlando. In 2004, a special agent with the Drug Enforcement Administration shot himself in the thigh with a .40-caliber Glock pistol while talking to schoolchildren about gun safety.

Eloísa Ruano González can be reached at [email protected] or 407-650-6673.

Lee Paige was the DEA Agent that they're referring to in the story. I specifically recall his statement "I'm the only one in this room professional enough to handle this Glock 40." A very short time later "Boom!"


DEA Agent Who Shot Self In Foot Sues Uncle Sam - April 11, 2006

DEA Agent Who Shot Self In Foot Sues U.S.
Seeks damages for distribution of humiliating gun accident video

APRIL 11--A Drug Enforcement Administration agent who stars in a popular online video that shows him shooting himself in the foot during a weapons demonstration for Florida children is suing over the tape's release, claiming that his career has been crippled and he's become a laughingstock due to the embarrassing clip's distribution. Lee Paige, 45, blames the video's release on DEA officials in an April 7 federal lawsuit filed against the U.S. government. A copy of the pro se complaint by Paige, a DEA agent since 1990, can be found below. According to the lawsuit, Paige was making a "drug education presentation" in April 2004 to a Florida youth group when his firearm (a Glock .40) accidentally discharged. The shooting occurred moments after Paige told the children that he was the only person in the room professional enough to carry the weapon. The accident was filmed by an audience member, and the tape, Paige claims, was turned over to the DEA. The drug agency subsequently "improperly, illegally, willfully and/or intentionally" allowed the tape to be disseminated. As a result, Paige--pictured above in a still from the video--has been the "target of jokes, derision, ridicule, and disparaging comments" directed at him in restaurants, grocery stores, and airports. Paige, who writes that he was "once regarded as one of the best undercover agents, if not the best, in the DEA," points to the clip's recent airing on popular television shows and via the Internet as the reason he can no longer work undercover. He also notes that he is no longer "permitted or able to give educational motivational speeches and presentations." (5 pages)

gf

 

[6shootercarry]

Complacency has a funny way of teaching folks a new lesson from time to time. That's why show and tell with live ammo is always a bad idea.

When I was going over loading and unloading my auto with my wife it was with dummy ammo. The same procedure was used with the revolver.

I'm sure there will be a lawsuit in the works.

 

[BigBadAllis]

On the second story, I can't beleive the DEA Agent had live rounds in his gun while in a school doing a demonstration. I would say under any other circumstance he should be loaded and ready in he school, but not for a demo with students.

Jason

 

[micpl]

I wont own a Glock. Never. It has to lead in ND's by a large margin. And by those who are supposed to know how to handle guns. It has a inherent flaw and the ND,s are the fruit of it.

 

[Glock Fan]

I wont own a Glock. Never. It has to lead in ND's by a large margin. And by those who are supposed to know how to handle guns. It has a inherent flaw and the ND,s are the fruit of it.

I've never had a ND with any of my Glock pistols. In fact, never had a ND. Safe gun handling rules minimize the probability of having a ND.

Your generalizations about Glock pistols is disturbing. Do you have any proof to offer that there is an "inherent flaw" that contribute to the NDs'? Only thing I can think of is the fact that Glock pistols are very popular and there are a lot of them out there. Since there are a lot more Glock pistols in circulation, there is a higher probability of an incident with a Glock then there would be with a Desert Eagle .50AE. Kind of like why there are more accidents on the roads with vehicles manufactured by Honda than they are with vehicles manufactured by Bufori.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, however some basis for your opinion would be appreciated.




gf

 

[KimberPB]

I wont own a Glock. Never. It has to lead in ND's by a large margin. And by those who are supposed to know how to handle guns. It has a inherent flaw and the ND,s are the fruit of it.

Then you'll want to stay away from XD's, M&P's, and any other's that use the same style firing controls and safeties.

 

[micpl]

Then you'll want to stay away from XD's, M&P's, and any other's that use the same style firing controls and safeties.

Yes, Kimber, you are correct and I agree. BTW I tried a M&P with a mushy trigger that a SO/ROwas rather proud of and didnt like it at all, but the aforementioned safety problems with the Glocks and those others you mention dont sit well with me. It defies all gun rules. But Im over 50, so that may explain part of it. My gut constantly reminds of the rest.

 

[usmc guy]

If your a firearms instructor you have to obey the rules just like anyone else, NRA is very strict about "zero" live ammo in the classroom - that means for students and instructors. So you have to unload your CCW (put the live ammo in the trunk of your car until after class), if you are going to take that - gun inside the classroom. When you stop following the training rules, you are sure to have an incident.

 

[micpl]

I've never had a ND with any of my Glock pistols. In fact, never had a ND. Safe gun handling rules minimize the probability of having a ND.

Your generalizations about Glock pistols is disturbing. Do you have any proof to offer that there is an "inherent flaw" that contribute to the NDs'? Only thing I can think of is the fact that Glock pistols are very popular and there are a lot of them out there. Since there are a lot more Glock pistols in circulation, there is a higher probability of an incident with a Glock then there would be with a Desert Eagle .50AE. Kind of like why there are more accidents on the roads with vehicles manufactured by Honda than they are with vehicles manufactured by Bufori.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, however some basis for your opinion would be appreciated.




gf

Hello Glock Fan,

I will be glad to to espouse on my opinion about Glocks and similar designs.

First off I want to clarify that I did not generalize as you claim. The damn guns have no operable mechanical safety. Note that Taurus and XD are now offering as an option as some others maybe. WHY?!

Quickly someone will type in that a Colt or Smith DA doesnt either. But they do have a long and for the most part, heavy first DA pull and a CHOICE of a "manualy cocked single action LITE pull" all at the discretion of the operator.

To even suggest that you and your personal experience somehow makes all the ND,s irrelavent, cannot and should not never see the light of day.

There are many miamed forever cops and citizens from handling these guns without some provision built in to their design to help against MURGHY,s LAW. The Glock is a perfect example. I dont care how many use it world wide.

If you look at the current conflicts around the world, which theater is using "plastic mushy trigger handguns with no safety provision as front line weapons. Please provide info Glock Fan.

SIG and BERETTA are there. HMMM! They come available several ways, the ones in use anyway, but none of them have a loaded chamber and a 3/8 5 # LB trigger pull" cocked and UNLOCKED condition. PLEASE!!!


Lets go further

Samule Colt, John Browning, Mauser, FN Belgium, Lee Enfield, Ruger, Winchester [ 94's excluded] Mossberg
999% 1911 providers, on and on it goes. GUNS that are DA or those that are semi auto have built in SAFETY.

Striker fired hair trigger fired guns without nothing but a handling and manual regimen of arms cannot stop the tragic "CLUSTER FCK" associated with these guns. The Military always knew but LEO got "snuckkerd" and citizens like you.

Example, Glock Fan go train and teach your beloved wife and kids to "CARRY A GLOCK" >sorry you lose this one.

 

[Glock Fan]

Hello Glock Fan,

I will be glad to to espouse on my opinion about Glocks and similar designs.

First off I want to clarify that I did not generalize as you claim. The damn guns have no operable mechanical safety. Note that Taurus and XD are now offering as an option as some others maybe. WHY?!

Quickly someone will type in that a Colt or Smith DA doesnt either. But they do have a long and for the most part, heavy first DA pull and a CHOICE of a "manualy cocked single action LITE pull" all at the discretion of the operator.

To even suggest that you and your personal experience somehow makes all the ND,s irrelavent, cannot and should not never see the light of day.

There are many miamed forever cops and citizens from handling these guns without some provision built in to their design to help against MURGHY,s LAW. The Glock is a perfect example. I dont care how many use it world wide.

If you look at the current conflicts around the world, which theater is using "plastic mushy trigger handguns with no safety provision as front line weapons. Please provide info Glock Fan.

SIG and BERETTA are there. HMMM! They come available several ways, the ones in use anyway, but none of them have a loaded chamber and a 3/8 5 # LB trigger pull" cocked and UNLOCKED condition. PLEASE!!!


Lets go further

Samule Colt, John Browning, Mauser, FN Belgium, Lee Enfield, Ruger, Winchester [ 94's excluded] Mossberg
999% 1911 providers, on and on it goes. GUNS that are DA or those that are semi auto have built in SAFETY.

Striker fired hair trigger fired guns without nothing but a handling and manual regime of arms cannot stop the tragic "CLUSTER FCK" associated with these guns. The Military always knew but LEO got "snuckkerd" and citizens like you.

Example, Glock Fan go train and teach your beloved wife and kids to "CARRY A GLOCK" sorry you lose this one.

A lot of people often find it easier to "attack" then learn about equipment that they're not familiar with. Contrary to your statement, all Glock pistols have a "trigger safety". There are also two internal safety devices. Granted they're all "passive" safety devices, they are there.

A manual safety is no substitute for safe firearms handling practices. It doesn't matter what brand of firearm a particular government agency chooses. They all make their own specifications, and are often restricted by budget. How often have you heard that "low bid" was part of awarding a contract?

That aside, this is America, and you're entitled to your opinion. I've trained 100s' of students on various firearms. I cannot be responsible for what happens once they're done with my class, but I assure you that every one of them were taught that a safety is a mechanical device. It can fail. With that in mind, you should not depend on any safety device when it comes to firearms handling. Use the safety, but don't trust it.

Unlike many handguns on the market, the trigger pull on a Glock is very easily adjusted. The standard trigger pull is around 5.5 lbs. With the proper equipment, the trigger can be made as heavy as 12lbs. This makes the Glock a very versitile piece of equipment.

Hate on the brand all you like. I have my list of guns I don't like. There's really no need to "prove" anything to me. Unless you can show me compelling evidence as to why the gun is as bad as you say, your opinion doesn't matter to me.

Not sure what the "sorry you loose this one" means, but it sure seems like a personal attack. I humbly ask that you refrain from such acts in the future as it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand. BTW, I've taugh my child as well as many other children how to safely handle a variety of firearms including Glocks. Many people on the range have been impressed by the way these children handle firearms a lot better than adults.

Happy shooting!



gf

 

[MADnMO]

Proud Glock owner. G21 is my carry gun.

Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot. This applies to all firearms.

Never point your firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy.

Treat all firearms as if they are loaded. ALWAYS.

And yes I have taught my 14 year old twins how to shoot my Glock.

JMAO.

 

[micpl]

Glock Fan and MadnMo,

I will respond first to you collectively.

Training and supervising your kids at a range plinking session is quite different than turning them loose carrying a Glock EDC.

Glock Fan I am not attacking you personally. But It sounds as though you are taking negative opinions about a Glock personally.
You asked me to elaborate. I did. I believe you are "stuck" on an image that Glock,s are as safe "mechanicaly" that is, than all other guns. It is a losing argument IMO. If common sense doesnt prevail then the documented evidence should.

Glock,s because of their design are more prone to AD/ND pending on your point of view. Either way the injuries and deaths attributed to Glocks is alarming and overwhelming.

Any PD, reference NYPD, worried enough to go to a 12 # "NY" trigger has a good reason for it. In your first post you mention that more Glock,s are in use and therefore it is proportional in favor of the Glock as compared to other weapons.

I would disagree and say that it proves that there is a problem existing among the supposedly most qualified and trained users of the product. If they "srew up" with such dire consequence resulting in deaths, maimings and paralyzed officers and civilian bystanders, then why train your kids with such a weapon? Do you really want to go on record that you would feel safe with your adult children and or a spouse with minimal range time carrying a Glock for EDC/CCW? Just asking, not attacking.

The numbers dont lie. The most trained and numerous users of a Glock on a daily basis are killing themselves and others due to ND's, disproportionaly as compared to even standards of service weapons,ie, Sigs, Berettas etc. The stories are tragic and irreversible.

The most disturbing and diservice of the Glock side of this argument is a failure to admit that there is a problem. Being stuck on "safe" issues as an old and worn out response" "keep your finger off the triggger and all will be well in the world". Well in the real world that isnt happening and repeating the same "safe" issue wont make it go away.

Now just to balance my side of this issue and to be honest I EDC a snub 357 full shroud no hammer 650 with a horrible "heavy" DOA trigger pull. To counter that I also carry a Sig DA/SA decock with no safety also. So my argument isnt really around a safety per say but rather loaded chambered guns with short and lite trigger pulls without a safety.

Im including some interesting links just for reference only, not to bolster my opinion. I just think that something other should
show how things can happen.

Link Removed

YouTube - Accidental Discharge

Ill add more links and yes Ill try and correct any grammatical and spelling erros. But not promising. Be safe.

YouTube- Stupid Cop!

 

[yogi01]

Well as a wise man once said

RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

Thank you Mr. Cooper

A loaded and cocked gun sitting on a table whether it be a Glock or Colt or any other firearm will not ND/AD or whatever you want to call it. The Idiot holding the firearm is what causes the gun to go BANG! KEEP YOUR BOOGER HOOK OFF THE BANG SWITCH until you are ready to fire the gun.

 

[kn1080]

The negligent discharge in the NRA classroom is going to hurt the rest of us instructors.

About the DEA agent... the thing that is particularly odd about that episode is that he actually had a second person verify that the gun was unloaded. I wonder if they both missed the round in the chamber or, if there was a mag in and having the other person look was an act to make everyone else more comfortable.

 

[HeadHunter1-3]

Just adding my .02. Ive carried the Beretta M-9 for four years now on active duty both in garrison preformin LE dutys and in the AOR doing COIN and ASO missions. Since the first day I was trained on the M-9 up until now I was always tought the correct method of carry was a round in the chamber and the safety on fire so the safety never really was an issue to me the only time I have ever seen anybody in my unit carry one with the safety engaged was our gunners that used a drop leg only because the barrel woul eventually be pointed at somebody inside of an MRAP or HMMWV but that was the exception and not the rule. I personally carry a G 23 and have not once worried about the lack of a thumb safety due to the fact that correct carry and knowledge of safe weapons handeling will prevent any NDs. In fact the only NDs I have ever witnessed were at the clearing barrels breaking wire on M-4s. Just some observations of mine

 

[Dr Dave]

Remember revolvers? The safety is located between your ears.

 

[SkydiverRick]

Then you'll want to stay away from XD's, M&P's, and any other's that use the same style firing controls and safeties.

I know the point that you are trying to make, but my XD40SC has an addition safety on the handle.

 

[Glock Fan]

I know the point that you are trying to make, but my XD40SC has an addition safety on the handle.

You can have a dozen safety devices on a firearm, and it still won't prevent an idiot with a gun from having a ND. A SAFETY IS A MECHANICAL DEVICE. IT CAN FAIL. USE IT, BUT DON'T TRUST IT!



gf