Not all liberals hate guns!


Conservative Agendas (as defined by party political stances)
1. Promotes smaller governement
2. Promotes personal responsibility
3. Anti abortion
4. Pro Gun
5. Anti Same Sex Marriage
6. Want less welfare handouts as a means of helping smaller budget and government
7. More likely to be Pro military



Liberal Agendas (as defined by party political stances)
1. Promote larger government
2. Promotes a "I'm a victim of the system mentality"
3. Pro Abortion
4. Anti Gun
5. Pro Same sex Marriage
6. Promise more welfare handouts at election time
7. More likely to be Anti military


These are the guidelines that America seems to stick upon during the election process

I love the spin you can work into these things. Lemme try! :biggrin:


Liberal
1. Promotes strong domestic programs that have bearing on the lives of individual citizens.
2. Promotes responsibility of society for all its members.
3. Pro Choice
4. Pro Second Amendment, Pro Gun Owner responsibility.
5. Supports the right of all people to pursue happiness.
6. Believe that spending billions to kill, over millions to heal is wrong.
7. Support our troops and believe in the sovereignty of all nations.

Conservative
1. Talks about smaller gov't when out of power, pumps it up when in power.
2. Promote personal responsibility of others.
3. Anti individual rights, pro parentless children born into poverty or abuse.
4. Believe the second amendment means every citizen has a right to purchase weapons equivalent to the military, including nukes, at the local fast food drive through.
5. Supports government sanctioned discrimination and majority denial of the rights of a minority.
6. Willing to spend billions to prepare for the violation of other nations sovereignty, not willing to spend 1 dime of "my tax dollars!!!" to help those in need.
7. Not only pro military, but pro throwing our weight around against other nations to force them to our own agendas. No matter how many young American men have to die for it.


Ah, don't we all feel better having belittled the beliefs of others! Next time lets talk about what Jesus would do!!
 

Liberal
1. Promotes strong domestic programs that have bearing on the lives of individual citizens.
2. Promotes responsibility of society for all its members.
3. Pro Choice
4. Pro Second Amendment, Pro Gun Owner responsibility.
5. Supports the right of all people to pursue happiness.
6. Believe that spending billions to kill, over millions to heal is wrong.
7. Support our troops and believe in the sovereignty of all nations.


Don't items #3 & #6 sort of clash?

And #2 looks like it should be interpreted "pro-socialist".

As for #7, if Liberals support sovereignty, why are they so willing to give it up?
 
I suppose 3 and 6 would clash to a conservative. From my perspective 6 involves the lives of many. The only life involved in 3 of course is that of the pregnant individual.

#2, socialism is not a bad word. :biggrin:

#7, totally irrelevant comment based on a personal opinion and not the actual belief of this liberal or those liberals I am closest too.
 
Im guessing that billions to kill is refering to the military, not abortion......who can say.
50 million babies killed and billions spent by libs to promote how good that is for society and the protection of rights....could be that I guess.
but lets get rid of the military then we can spend it all on killing babies.
 
Im guessing that billions to kill is refering to the military, not abortion......who can say.
50 million babies killed and billions spent by libs to promote how good that is for society and the protection of rights....could be that I guess.
but lets get rid of the military then we can spend it all on killing babies.

I agree with you but trying to reason with a person that thinks killing babies is o.k. or that there is nothing wrong with socialism is a waist of time. Just my 2 cents worth.
 
I agree with you but trying to reason with a person that thinks killing babies is o.k. or that there is nothing wrong with socialism is a waist of time. Just my 2 cents worth.

ehhhh...after the Jesus remark she went on the iggy list.:biggrin:
 
Guys, thats the sort of blindness I mentioned in another post.

First, our standing military is very much a socialist program. As well as public police, fire protection, the mail, social security, the FDIC, and many many other long standing services / organizations in the US. Socialism is not any worse or any better than capitalism in moderation and either in an extreme is very dangerous.

Second, I've never killed a baby or spent money on killing a baby. Comparatively speaking, our government spends nothing on abortion (which is not baby killing) compared to what is spent on weapons of war.

If its truly is a moral decision regarding life, then why is it so uncompromisable to spend a little less on killing outside our borders and a little more on helping those that live within our borders (including these unborn "babies")? How many "pro-life" organizations are bombed or sniped by liberal uninvolved third-parties that wish to force under threat of death others to surrender to their will?

What part of being a good christian dictates that killing your enemy and sending them to hell is better than turning the other cheek under gods protection when all you have to risk is going to heaven?

Really, my stomach turned for 8 years under W. A man who at best garnered less than 50% of the electorate and at worst stole the election in 2000. I was blocks away down Hudson Ave on 9-11 and never felt that the best thing to do would be to attack Iraq. I've seen my tax dollars spent on a military build-up, civil liberty violations, individual discrimination, and to bail out wealthy bankers. Never in that time did I say build a bunker, stock up on ammo, buy more weapons, live in fear. Obama hasn't even taken office and this site is full of that sentiment.

I believe in the second amendment because I believe in the rights of individuals. Though I felt it was a bit far reaching I support the Heller decision and haven’t ranted that we need to stack the court and over turn it. I believe in the American system, in spite of our many short comings because in the end it works.

Conservatives are slaves to their own fears. All of this Obama backlash is proof that conservative, bible beating, Republicans don’t truly have the confidence in the Constitution that it deserves. Maybe that because in the end it really is about the limits it places on them to hold others down.
 
Amen, brother!

Your posts along this thread have been both pleasently light-hearted and poignantly serious. I agree with you completely that Obama's election does not mean the end of America as we know it. For the first time in my life, I am excited about our nation's future rather than fearful. I believe in our system of government and I believe in our Constitution. I also believe that our nation now has the opportunity to return to the greatness it once had, a greatness that has been ebbing significantly over the last 8 years (and maybe before that). I think Obama will bring balance back to our government and equality back to our social and international policies. I also think he will work to protect all of our civil rights, not just those that he decides he likes.

If we do have to build a bomb shelter, will you hang out in mine? :biggrin:
 
Are you high?

I love the spin you can work into these things. Lemme try! :biggrin:


Ah, don't we all feel better having belittled the beliefs of others! Next time lets talk about what Jesus would do!!

We could never buy nukes...We were not given most favored nation status by William Jefferson Clinton:wacko:

As far as what would Jesus do let's see.

Perhaps we could start with the fact that he came to fulfill the law of Moses. (you know that whole ten commandments thing that a handfull of Athiest creeps got booted out of most courthouses (it made for a hostile workplace environment for the ACLU)

The Bible and self-defense
Posted: November 26, 2001
1:00 am Eastern

By Joseph Farah
© 2008 WorldNetDaily.com


The Bible couldn't be clearer on the right – even the duty – we have as believers to self-defense.

Let's start in the Old Testament.

"If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him," we are told in Exodus 22:2. The next verse says, "If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft."

In other words, it was perfectly OK to kill a thief breaking into your house. That's the ultimate expression of self-defense. It doesn't matter whether the thief is threatening your life or not. You have the right to protect your home, your family and your property, the Bible says.

The Israelites were expected to have their own personal weapons. Every man would be summoned to arms when the nation confronted an enemy. They didn't send in the Marines. The people defended themselves.

In 1 Samuel 25:13, we read: "And David said unto his men, Gird ye on every man his sword. And they girded on every man his sword; and David also girded on his sword: and there went up after David about four hundred men; and two hundred abode by the stuff."

Every man had a sword and every man picked it up when it was required.

Judges 5:8 reminds us of what happens to a foolish nation that chooses to disarm: "They chose new gods; then was war in the gates: was there a shield or spear seen among forty thousand in Israel?"

The answer to the rhetorical question is clear: No. The people had rebelled against God and put away their weapons of self-defense.

"Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight," David writes in Psalms 144:1.

Clearly, this is not a pacifist God we serve. It's God who teaches our hands to war and our fingers to fight. Over and over again throughout the Old Testament, His people are commanded to fight with the best weapons available to them at that time.

And what were those weapons? Swords.

They didn't have firearms, but they had sidearms. In fact, in the New Testament, Jesus commanded His disciples to buy them and strap them on. Don't believe me? Check it out.

Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

I know. I know. You biblically literate skeptics are going to cite Matthew 26:52-54 – how Jesus responded when Peter used his sword to cut off the ear of a servant of the high priest: "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?"

Read those verses in context and they support my position. Jesus told Peter he would be committing suicide to choose a fight in this situation – as well as undermining God's plan to allow Jesus' death on the cross and resurrection.

Jesus told Peter to put his sword in its place – at his side. He didn't say throw it away. After all, He had just ordered the disciples to arm themselves. The reason for the arms was obviously to protect the lives of the disciples, not the life of the Son of God. What Jesus was saying was: "Peter, this is not the right time for a fight."

In the context of America's current battle – as we make plans to rebuild after the devastation of Sept. 11 and defend ourselves at the same time – we should recall Nehemiah, who rebuilt the walls of Jerusalem.

"They which builded on the wall, and they that bare burdens, with those that laded, every one with one of his hands wrought in the work, and with the other hand held a weapon," we're told in Nehemiah 4:17-18. "For the builders, every one had his sword girded by his side, and so builded."

Any more questions, skeptics?

ABORTION

Ten Bible Reasons Why It Is Wrong
Prior to the Roe vs. Wade Supreme Court decision of 1973, about 500,000 illegal abortions were occurring per year. By 1975, over 1,000,000 babies were being aborted in the United States. Today, about 1,500,000 abortions occur each year. That's over 4000 per day, and nearly three per minute!
Ninety-three percent of the abortions in America are for convenience. The mother's health is an issue only three percent of the time, and the baby's health is an issue only three percent of the time. Rape or incest are issues only one percent of the time. Ninety-three percent of all abortions in America are performed just because someone doesn't want a child!

There are four basic types of abortion being performed in America today, while two more types may be added in the near future.

First, there's the suction type abortion. This is where the unborn child is literally vacuumed from the mother's womb during the early stages of pregnancy.

The currette-type abortion is where the child is cut from the mother's womb with a spoon-like object.

A third type is similar to a Caesarean operation. The baby is surgically removed from the mother and allowed to suffocate, because the child's lungs aren't developed.

The fourth type of abortion is the Salt Brine technique. With this method, the unborn child is literally "pickled" to death by the injection of a strong salt solution. A few days after the injection the child is still born.

There is currently much debate about partial-birth abortions. This is where a child is partially delivered, then stabbed in the skull to have his or her brains sucked out.

There is also much talk about the RU-486 abortion pill from France, also called "mifepristione" in America. This pill works by inhibiting pregnancy hormones, and is normally used within seven weeks from conception. At the present time, mifepristone is illegal in the U.S., but there is much political pressure to make it legal.
Abortion Is An Act of Murder
In reference to pregnant women, the term "with child" occurs twenty-six times in the Bible. The term "with fetus" never occurs once.

In Luke chapter one, verses 36 and 41, we are told that Elisabeth conceived a "son" and that the "babe" leaped in her womb. God does not say that a "fetus" leaped in her womb! He says THE BABE leaped. This is the exact same word that God uses to describe Christ in the manger AFTER He is born (Luke 2:12, 16). In God eyes, an unborn babe and a newborn babe are the same. They are both living human beings!

Dear reader, please answer a question: What is an "infant?" Get the answer in your mind and keep it there for a moment. Do you have it? Okay, please consider Job 3:16: "Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light." Did you see that? Job referred to unborn children as INFANTS. Not fetuses! Not masses of tissue! INFANTS! In God's eyes, an unborn child is a living human baby. God never says once that an unborn child is anything less than a human being.

David said in Psalm 51:5, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." He did not say that a fetus was shapen in iniquity and conceived in iniquity. David, speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said that HE was conceived. David, not a blob of tissue, was conceived.

The same is the case in Psalm 139:13-16:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them."

Who was in the womb? David! A literal and living person. The Bible never uses anything less than human terms to describe the unborn.

Notice that in Jeremiah 1:5 we are told that God KNEW Jeremiah:"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

To further confirm the fact that God views the unborn child as a person, please consider Exodus 21:22-23:

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,"

If the woman has a premature birth and the child lives ("no mischief follows"), then there's no death penalty. However, if the child dies (or the woman dies) God says the death penalty applies: "thou shalt give life for life." Why would God require the death penalty if He didn't consider the unborn child to be a human being?

Friend, like it or not, God says that life begins at conception, and the unborn child is a human being.

But the Bible isn't alone in declaring this truth. Science also declares that an unborn child is just as much an independent human being as you. The original human cell consists of 46 chromosomes, 23 from each parent. At no point during pregnancy does the mother contribute any new cells to the child. The original cell divides itself and multiplies to provide development and growth for the child. Scientifically speaking, the child is just as independent at six months before birth as he will be six months after birth. Yes, the mother does provide nourishment to the unborn child, but she also provides nourishment to the newborn child!

At two weeks pregnancy, the "fetus" can move alone. By four weeks the child has limbs, muscle tissue, a heart and heartbeat. Ears, eyes, and small hands are visible by the fifth week. The child responds to touch sensations by the sixth or seventh week. At eight weeks, the baby sometimes tries to take a breath when removed from the mother. At twelve weeks, the child will often struggle for life two or three hours when removed from the mother.

Friend, abortion is wrong because abortion is MURDER!

Abortion Involves the Shedding of Innocent Blood

Proverbs 6:16-17 says that God HATES those who shed innocent blood! Deuteronomy 27:25 says, "Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen."

Who could possibly be more innocent than an unborn baby?! Yet, our society has become so wicked that it condones the slaying of 1.5 million innocent children every year. The Bible says that God HATES people who do this.

Abortion Is A Violation of the Golden Rule

In Matthew 7:12, the Lord Jesus Christ said, "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."

Would it be your desire to suffer and die while someone traps you in a cage and literally tears your arms and legs from your body?

Abortion is a violation of the golden rule.

Abortion Attempts To Destroy A Work of God

"I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him." (Ecc. 3:14)

God is eternal, so His work is also eternal. Abortion is an attempt to do away with unwanted people--an attempt to make a liar out of God by bringing an end to His work. However, Jesus said you can destroy a person's BODY, but not their SOUL (Mat. 10:28). Parent, if you've had an abortion, your aborted child is in Heaven right now, because you only destroyed the body!

Abortion Often Brings Shame, Heartache, and Deep Regret

After his sin with Bathsheba, King David confessed these words to God: "For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me." (Psa. 51:3) David was living under constant conviction and regret for what he had done. He couldn't get away from it!

Most women who decide to have an abortion spend the rest of their lives regretting it. Are you thinking about an abortion? I challenge you to visit with some woman who have had abortions. Ask them if they would do it again. Ask them if they have any regrets.

In the book, The Christian and Social Issues, by Tom Wallace, a reference is made to a full page Washington Post ad, dated June 13, 1983. A lady who had undergone a saline abortion six months earlier describes the mental torments that she now suffers every day. She speaks of her "...everyday hell of never hearing a baby cry without crying within myself; counting days to see how old the baby would have been; wondering what contributions my baby would have made to our desperate society; and wondering if there will ever be another chance for motherhood."

Of the abortion itself, the lady recalls, "...sitting in a crowded waiting room studying each others fearful, anxious faces...signing death certificates for what is very much alive within you...seeing crying women given tranquilizers and sent home to recuperate and try to forget."

Abortion is wrong because it brings shame, heartache, and deep regret.

Abortion Disannuls A Plan of God

If God allows a child to be conceived, then God obviously has a plan for that child. Mary's parents didn't know that she'd give birth to the Savior of the world, but she did. God has a plan for unborn children (Jer. 1:5; Lk. 1:13-17; Gen. 4:25; Jud. 13:3-5), so to abort an unborn child is to stop a plan of God.

Abortion De-values Human Life

God created man to be the highest form of life on earth (Gen. 1:26-28). Human life is very precious to God. In fact, it is so precious that God Himself instituted the Death Penalty for anyone who takes the life of another (Exo. 21:12; Num. 35). God places great value on human life!

However, abortion promotes the message that life is NOT so valuable, and that man can do as he pleases with it. How long will it be before our nation decides that the killing of elderly people and sick people is justifiable? Why stop there? How long will it be before it becomes lawful to kill Bible believers who refuse to conform to the world system? It won't be as long as you may think (Rev. 13:16-18; Rev. 20:4). Abortion devalues human life, and it pushes our nation a step closer to that wicked day when it becomes lawful to murder innocent people.

Abortion Shows A Lack of Natural Affection

Paul tells us in 2 Timothy 3:3 that the last days will be characterized by people who lack "natural affection."

I believe the pro-abortion movement is a perfect example of this. It is NATURAL to conceive a child, grow to love that child, take care of the child during pregnancy, give birth to the child, and then raise the child with the best care possible. That's the natural process that God has ordained. It is NOT natural to kill the child! To commit such an act is to show a lack of natural affection, which is sin.

Abortion Encourages Sin

"Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil." (Ecc. 8:11)

Why will 1,500,000 women have abortions this year? Largely because it has become popular. It is no longer illegal, and it is no longer considered a shameful sin by our society. Every time a woman has an abortion she helps society to become more comfortable with it. She's advertising it! By her example, she's encouraging others to commit the same sin, and other sins as well. The convenience of abortion will only lead to an increase of other sins such as adultery and fornication. Friend, abortion is wrong because abortion encourages sin!

Abortion Shows A Lack of Faith

Romans 14:23 says, "...for whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Hebrews 11:6 tells us that without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God.

To have an abortion is to take matters into your own hands, rather than to trust God to work things out. This shows a lack of faith in God, which the Bible labels as SIN.

A desperate woman says, "I can't afford to have a child. I'm not ready for this." Lady, you need to start trusting God and claiming His promises. You need to STOP trying to run your own life for a change and START trusting God. You don't need an abortion, for such will only INCREASE your troubles. The devil has you thinking that abortion is the answer, that it will take care of everything, and you're very close to giving in to his subtle temptation. If you do, you'll regret it forever, and God will hold you accountable!


Also you should perhaps read this verse:
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their
women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way
the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed
with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men,
and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Or this one:
'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have
done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will
be on their own heads.' (Leviticus 20:13)
(Romans 1:26-27)



This is what I believe. It is what it is.

After spending a lifetime in the US military, I can tell you they are NOT a socialist state. They are more prone to give their own life to protect an innocent life than YOU will ever know. You see, Life is precious. It is the most precious gift we have been given. It is worth defending at all costs. As for disease and sickness consider this...
One of the babies aborted for the convenience of a one night stand may have held the cure for Cancer, AIDS or any other deadly disease. Another may have grown up to be a brilliant scientist with a solution to world hunger.

As for weapons and the purchase there of, I believe that if you have a clean criminal record...YOU should be able to own an assault rifle, a M-249 saw or anything else that is not considered crew served. Or permanently mounted in a silo or ship of war.

As for the economic part of it...look at unemployement statistics during Carter, Clinton and now Obama
You will soon find that They are generally lower during a republican administration.

I think that Marriage is a sacred bond between a man and a woman...not some Brokeback Mountain B^&&$#!^.

What would Jesus do??? Read your bible and find out. He ain't a wimpy God and will be back with some justice and vengeance for all of us who do not toe the line and believe.
 
I'm going to help you out, gdcleanfun. Just because someone doesn't follow the Democratic Party platform 100% that does not mean that they aren't liberal at their cores. For instance you mostly support the platform sans your support for gun rights. In my mind it means you're not on the far fringe of the party, but it doesn't mean you aren't liberal, either. The same goes for conservatives. Just because they don't follow the platform of the Republican Party 100% (ie., Pat Buchanan's opposition to the Iraq War), that doesn't mean they aren't conservative at their very core.
 
Wow Festus, your own sermon or cut and paste?

Lets examine the bible then ...

God of peace……

He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. John 12:25

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Matt 5:5

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. Matt 5:39

Or man of war ……

Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: .. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. Luke 12:51,53

Was Jesus really forthright and here to save all that would heed …

Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing", John 18:20

Or did he have a hidden agenda just for those he really thought were cool …..

"And his disciples asked him saying, 'What might this parable be?' And he said, "Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand." Luke 8:9-10

Lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.", Mark 4:12

Are we saved by Grace, Faith, Works, Baptism, or because we got lucky and won the God Jackpot!

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal 2:16.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8,9.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? James 2:14.

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. James 2:17. And again later, Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. James 2:24.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16

NEITHER! You have to be one of the lucky ones chosen at Gods pleasure.

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Eph 1:9-11.

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Rom 8:30

The Heaven Lotto! Nightly drawings, you should be so lucky to get picked!! Stay in good with JC and he’ll provide the intro.

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. Matt 11:25,26

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." Matt 11:27.


On the other hand some of us were created only to be destroyed.

For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favor, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses. Josh 11:20

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) ….. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Rom 9:11-18

Once saved no one can tear us from Gods hand, not even the devil, but it sounds like he might have butter fingers and let us slip out on his own. Why would he do that!

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:28,29.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Heb 6:4-6.

The rules for the winners, this is one tough act!! BTW – Do these things and I can buy it, don’t and there just is no magic. Hey, what did Paul do to merit Jesus favor but kill Christians? Are we all not worthy of our own Damascus road experience? Testify!!

Therefore, be perfect, just as your father in heaven is perfect. Mat 5:48

Behold, I give to you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall hurt you in any way. Luke 10:19

And Jesus said to them... if you all have faith even like a grain of mustard seed, you all shall say to this mountain, "Move away to another place", and it shall move. And nothing shall be impossible to you. Mat 17:20

It is good for a man not to touch a woman... 1st Cor 7:1 (God has a sense of humour, she must be a chick!!)

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection, but I allow not a woman to teach, nor to have authority over man, but to be in silence. 1st Tim 2:11-12 (oops, guess not)

Oh, and then there’s this. God is a misogynist I guess.

Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Eph 5:22-24

But in the end isn’t really about the judging. Keeping this country on the path of god and smiting those that don’t agree. Forcing our beliefs on others against their free will (free will is a myth as we saw in Eph 1). Besides, ranting against sin is so much more fun than reaching out to the poor, helpless and needy. They shoulda planned better.

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother?
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' “They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Matt 25:41-45

Obama, say what!?!
You shall not blaspheme God, nor curse the ruler of your people. Ex 22:28

Even Job, a perfect and upright man had reason to fear God. Which leave this nonchristian atheist to her own little testimony.

But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him". Job 23:13-15

I grew up in the church. I’ve seen it at it’s very best from the inside and found it lacking. How could someone with the message and power to save souls from an eternity in hell care so much more for the temporal? When Christians decide that no mission could be greater than to tell everyone they have great news, the one and only way to avoid hell, open to all who believe; When Christians treat sin as something to be saved from and not condemned to; When Christians care more about helping and giving, less about riches and their possessions; When Christians are concerned enough about lost souls that socialism, guns, gay marriage, and abortions don’t matter, because they know that saved people will reject it; then I will see proof that Jesus saves and converts.
 
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I'm going to help you out, gdcleanfun. Just because someone doesn't follow the Democratic Party platform 100% that does not mean that they aren't liberal at their cores. For instance you mostly support the platform sans your support for gun rights. In my mind it means you're not on the far fringe of the party, but it doesn't mean you aren't liberal, either. The same goes for conservatives. Just because they don't follow the platform of the Republican Party 100% (ie., Pat Buchanan's opposition to the Iraq War), that doesn't mean they aren't conservative at their very core.

Exactly, tattedupboy. Very well said.
 
Whew, what was unleashed here? I just wanted to get across the notion that being a liberal didn't mean that I should be thought of as wrong or incorrect. I have my views, everyone has their own views, but no one deserves to be thought of as bad for having their own views, morals, or values. I was getting miffed at being called "wrong" or worse just because I'm a liberal. I just thought that it would prevent some arguments if some people were thought of as anti-2A rather than as people who could be bashed because of their liberal stance on most everything else. I hope I didn't step too heavily on toes. That wasn't my intent.
 
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Well, at least you do have guns in common with us, gdcleanfun. After all, that's why we're all here, isn't it? I, for one, am glad you're here with us, even if I do disagree with your position on abortion. :biggrin:

Tattedupboy, yes, that is why we are all here, because we all believe in the 2A rights to bear arms. It is not necessary that we all agree on all other things. It would surely make for a very dull world if we did. Thank you, I'm glad to be here, and glad that you are here also, and glad that we have this forum on which we can discuss these things. There are many parts and places in the world where one would be shot or drawn and quartered or even stoned to death for discussing the issues we raise. Long live America!
 
Wow Festus, your own sermon or cut and paste?

Lets examine the bible then ...

God of peace……

He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. John 12:25

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Matt 5:5

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. Matt 5:39

Or man of war ……

Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: .. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. Luke 12:51,53

Was Jesus really forthright and here to save all that would heed …

Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing", John 18:20

Or did he have a hidden agenda just for those he really thought were cool …..

"And his disciples asked him saying, 'What might this parable be?' And he said, "Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand." Luke 8:9-10

Lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.", Mark 4:12

Are we saved by Grace, Faith, Works, Baptism, or because we got lucky and won the God Jackpot!

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal 2:16.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8,9.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? James 2:14.

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. James 2:17. And again later, Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. James 2:24.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16

NEITHER! You have to be one of the lucky ones chosen at Gods pleasure.

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Eph 1:9-11.

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Rom 8:30

The Heaven Lotto! Nightly drawings, you should be so lucky to get picked!! Stay in good with JC and he’ll provide the intro.

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. Matt 11:25,26

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." Matt 11:27.


On the other hand some of us were created only to be destroyed.

For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favor, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses. Josh 11:20

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) ….. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Rom 9:11-18

Once saved no one can tear us from Gods hand, not even the devil, but it sounds like he might have butter fingers and let us slip out on his own. Why would he do that!

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:28,29.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Heb 6:4-6.

The rules for the winners, this is one tough act!! BTW – Do these things and I can buy it, don’t and there just is no magic. Hey, what did Paul do to merit Jesus favor but kill Christians? Are we all not worthy of our own Damascus road experience? Testify!!

Therefore, be perfect, just as your father in heaven is perfect. Mat 5:48

Behold, I give to you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall hurt you in any way. Luke 10:19

And Jesus said to them... if you all have faith even like a grain of mustard seed, you all shall say to this mountain, "Move away to another place", and it shall move. And nothing shall be impossible to you. Mat 17:20

It is good for a man not to touch a woman... 1st Cor 7:1 (God has a sense of humour, she must be a chick!!)

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection, but I allow not a woman to teach, nor to have authority over man, but to be in silence. 1st Tim 2:11-12 (oops, guess not)

Oh, and then there’s this. God is a misogynist I guess.

Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Eph 5:22-24

But in the end isn’t really about the judging. Keeping this country on the path of god and smiting those that don’t agree. Forcing our beliefs on others against their free will (free will is a myth as we saw in Eph 1). Besides, ranting against sin is so much more fun than reaching out to the poor, helpless and needy. They shoulda planned better.

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother?
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' “They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Matt 25:41-45

Obama, say what!?!
You shall not blaspheme God, nor curse the ruler of your people. Ex 22:28

Even Job, a perfect and upright man had reason to fear God. Which leave this nonchristian atheist to her own little testimony.

But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him". Job 23:13-15

I grew up in the church. I’ve seen it at it’s very best from the inside and found it lacking. How could someone with the message and power to save souls from an eternity in hell care so much more for the temporal? When Christians decide that no mission could be greater than to tell everyone they have great news, the one and only way to avoid hell, open to all who believe; When Christians treat sin as something to be saved from and not condemned to; When Christians care more about helping and giving, less about riches and their possessions; When Christians are concerned enough about lost souls that socialism, guns, gay marriage, and abortions don’t matter, because they know that saved people will reject it; then I will see proof that Jesus saves and converts.


Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:18-20


For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. Romans 1:18-32
 
You beat me to it

HK4U you beat me to the punch. +1

On a personal note, if you need a miracle for proof of God, Look at the sun, moon, and stars and wonder about the hand that placed them and the hand that holds them. We are extremely small in this universe and God still knows us by name.
 
HK4U you beat me to the punch. +1

On a personal note, if you need a miracle for proof of God, Look at the sun, moon, and stars and wonder about the hand that placed them and the hand that holds them. We are extremely small in this universe and God still knows us by name.


Good point festus. I have heard it said that if the earth was any closer or further away from the sun it could not sustain life. I has to be exactly where it is. Some may believe that miracles like that are just by accident. To me it is obvious there is a divine hand behind it
 
Good point festus. I have heard it said that if the earth was any closer or further away from the sun it could not sustain life. I has to be exactly where it is. Some may believe that miracles like that are just by accident. To me it is obvious there is a divine hand behind it

+1. Just look at our natural makeup. How our bodies react to temperature, bacteria, injuries, etc... Even animals have their built in instincts and defenses and serve a purpose in Earth's eco-system. It wasn't a "Big Bang", and it wasn't an accident!
 
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I voted for Obama. I think Obama has an uphill battle, and I doubt tackling a "liberal" gun agenda is at the top of that list.

P.S. The last 8 years have been a failure, and luckily I don't have to say I voted him into office.
 

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