No guns allowed signs

[abbrigg]

So I'm knew to carrying and wanted to get some opinions on NO GUNS ALLOWED signs. I've come across many places that are not posted properly and therefore the sign does not have the force of law. In South Carolina the laws for a sign are very specific (i'll post below). I've seen a few types, some that just flat out aren't legal and then others that are of legal size, but are on glass doors in all white lettering and gun/circle (even at the airport!) If the sign isn't right do you carry anyways, avoid the business all together? What would you do?
Here's the law:
SECTION 23-31-235. Sign requirements.

(A) Notwithstanding any other provision of this article, any requirement of or allowance for the posting of signs prohibiting the carrying of a concealable weapon upon any premises shall only be satisfied by a sign expressing the prohibition in both written language interdict and universal sign language.

(B) All signs must be posted at each entrance into a building where a concealable weapon permit holder is prohibited from carrying a concealable weapon and must be:

(1) clearly visible from outside the building;

(2) eight inches wide by twelve inches tall in size;

(3) contain the words "NO CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ALLOWED" in black one-inch tall uppercase type at the bottom of the sign and centered between the lateral edges of the sign;

(4) contain a black silhouette of a handgun inside a circle seven inches in diameter with a diagonal line that runs from the lower left to the upper right at a forty-five degree angle from the horizontal;

(5) a diameter of a circle; and

(6) placed not less than forty inches and not more than sixty inches from the bottom of the building's entrance door.

 

[WmGardner]

Um, statue aside, what do you want to know? Do we observe them if improperly posted? What we do with our weapon when we encounter a sign? What we do in jurisdictions where they don’t carry the weight of law? What we think the signs should be made of?????

You asked our opinions, but what would you like our opinions to regard?


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[Bikenut]

Um, statue aside, what do you want to know? Do we observe them if improperly posted? What we do with our weapon when we encounter a sign? What we do in jurisdictions where they don’t carry the weight of law? What we think the signs should be made of?????

You asked our opinions, but what would you like our opinions to regard?


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It would be wise to check if the improper, at least according to the gun sign law, no guns signs still carry the weight of trespass laws.

 

[XD40scinNC]

Local ABC store has a clear sticker with dark red lettering beside the inner doors which backup against shelving that is painted black. You cannot see it from outside the entrance at all, and only if you look for it once you enter the outer doors.

In NC signs carry the weight of law, but the law also states the sign must be conspicuous, which this sign is not.

 

[croute]

I think the real question to be asking yourself is not whether the sign is legal or not, but are you going to ignore it or not. Seems like you don't want to ignore it, therefore you shouldn't visit the store with your gun.

 

[Waffles]

In SC,if the sign is not exactly according to kawm it is not legally enforceable. However, they can ask you to leave and if you don't: Trespassing. That being said, do you want to take the chance of the owner notifying Police, the officer arrives and arrests you because most Police Officers in this State don't have the foggiest idea about Handgun Laws. You may be right but spend the night in the slammer, lose your weapon in the Evidence Process and get a Lawyer to get you out? Is it worth it. Use your best judgement.

 

[Bikenut]

In Michigan a no guns sign IS notification. There isn't any legal obligation for the property owner to ask someone to leave. The sign itself is notification that those who carry a gun do not have the property owner's permission to enter. Entering private property without permission is trespassing.

So, at least in Michigan, the property owner doesn't need to first ask someone to leave before calling the police and having someone arrested for trespass. Rarely does a trespass situation work out that way because the business will usually ask a person to take their gun outside but the point is that they don't have to ask before someone gets arrested.

So I would strongly suggest that folks understand that a no guns sign may not have the force of gun law behind them but could still have the force of trespass law. And I would every strongly suggest folks research the nuances of the trespass laws appicable in their own States.

 

[Bikenut]

I think the real question to be asking yourself is not whether the sign is legal or not, but are you going to ignore it or not. Seems like you don't want to ignore it, therefore you shouldn't visit the store with your gun.

For me it isn't just a question of legality. I can't, in all good conscience, expect someone to respect my right to bear arms if I disrespect their private property right to deny those who carry guns permission to enter their property.

I know there are folks who disrespect the business owner's private property rights because it is inconvenient for them to shop somewhere else but I consider it hypocritical to expect others to respect my gun rights while disrespecting their private property rights.

 

[WmGardner]

It would be wise to check if the improper, at least according to the gun sign law, no guns signs still carry the weight of trespass laws.

They don’t in WI, if not posted according to statute. Signs never do in MN. Those are the two states I make a great effort to remain current with....


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[WmGardner]

In SC,if the sign is not exactly according to kawm it is not legally enforceable. However, they can ask you to leave and if you don't: Trespassing. That being said, do you want to take the chance of the owner notifying Police, the officer arrives and arrests you because most Police Officers in this State don't have the foggiest idea about Handgun Laws. You may be right but spend the night in the slammer, lose your weapon in the Evidence Process and get a Lawyer to get you out? Is it worth it. Use your best judgement.

Good advice.


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[WmGardner]

In Michigan a no guns sign IS notification. There isn't any legal obligation for the property owner to ask someone to leave. The sign itself is notification that those who carry a gun do not have the property owner's permission to enter. Entering private property without permission is trespassing.

So, at least in Michigan, the property owner doesn't need to first ask someone to leave before calling the police and having someone arrested for trespass. Rarely does a trespass situation work out that way because the business will usually ask a person to take their gun outside but the point is that they don't have to ask before someone gets arrested.

So I would strongly suggest that folks understand that a no guns sign may not have the force of gun law behind them but could still have the force of trespass law. And I would every strongly suggest folks research the nuances of the trespass laws appicable in their own States.

Yeah, same in WI..... provided the sign meets the parameters defined in statute. In MN, the owner or on-duty manager must verbally inform you, even if there is a sign.

Personally, if I see a sign, I either don’t go in or don’t bring my weapon. If, using MN as the example, you are going to force the owner to inform you, despite the fact there is a clear sign, you are probably just going to piss him/her off. They may just eject/ban you from the business while they are at it. Pissing off the owner and making a scene does nothing to promote gun owners in a positive light. I just don’t see the point in hurting the overall cause to make one tiny stand with an individual you won’t convince anyway.


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[WmGardner]

For me it isn't just a question of legality. I can't, in all good conscience, expect someone to respect my right to bear arms if I disrespect their private property right to deny those who carry guns permission to enter their property.

I know there are folks who disrespect the business owner's private property rights because it is inconvenient for them to shop somewhere else but I consider it hypocritical to expect others to respect my gun rights while disrespecting their private property rights.

Well said. Agree 100%.


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[abbrigg]

Yeah basically that. If you encounter a sign that’s improperly posted what do you do? I know what my thought process is when something with no legal right tries to tell me what to do. But trying to get others opinions/experiences. I can’t be the only one who’s encountered this. Do you carry about your day anyways (any concern about printing and being asked to leave/the cops caller &having to deal with that) (I know concealed means concealed so if you’re doing it right no one should know). Do you avoid the business all together (if they don’t support your rights, don’t give them $), or do you just leave your gun in the car and go in.

 

[Rivoak]

Yeah basically that. If you encounter a sign that’s improperly posted what do you do? I know what my thought process is when something with no legal right tries to tell me what to do. But trying to get others opinions/experiences. I can’t be the only one who’s encountered this. Do you carry about your day anyways (any concern about printing and being asked to leave/the cops caller &having to deal with that) (I know concealed means concealed so if you’re doing it right no one should know). Do you avoid the business all together (if they don’t support your rights, don’t give them $), or do you just leave your gun in the car and go in.

I have a SC CWP. I usually don’t carry a gun around in the city anyway, but on those occasions when I do have a gun, I simply won’t patronize a business that is posted, legally or not. Most places aren’t posted, and those that are have thought about it and don’t want guns on their property. Sure, I have a right to carry, but they have property rights and I will respect them.

I think some business owners are just plain ignorant of the posting law. For the most part I have seen this issue come up on restaurant entrances for fancier restaurants. Since I like a glass of wine or cocktail usually with dinner, I couldn’t legally be carrying in there anyway.


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[Bikenut]

Yeah basically that. If you encounter a sign that’s improperly posted what do you do? I know what my thought process is when something with no legal right tries to tell me what to do. But trying to get others opinions/experiences. I can’t be the only one who’s encountered this. Do you carry about your day anyways (any concern about printing and being asked to leave/the cops caller &having to deal with that) (I know concealed means concealed so if you’re doing it right no one should know). Do you avoid the business all together (if they don’t support your rights, don’t give them $), or do you just leave your gun in the car and go in.

Actually I open carry everywhere I go so I don't worry about printing and there isn't any question in anyone's mind whether I have a gun or not. Signed for a couple of new loans at my bank a couple of days ago with my sidearm in plain sight just like usual. No one cared.

I follow Michigan law(s), including trespass law(s), so I also carry openly into local government buildings but will disarm when going to the hospital. The laws in States other than Michigan might be different. And if I absolutely must go into a private property business and there isn't another business like it within an hour or so driving distance then I will respect that private property owner's right to ban guns and disarm.

I understand that I have absolutely no right to enter any privately owned business since "open to the public" really means "Open only to those members of the public that agree to abide by the property owner's rules and policies. Those who do not agree do not have permission to enter and are trespassing."

 

[WmGardner]

Yeah basically that. If you encounter a sign that’s improperly posted what do you do? I know what my thought process is when something with no legal right tries to tell me what to do. But trying to get others opinions/experiences. I can’t be the only one who’s encountered this. Do you carry about your day anyways (any concern about printing and being asked to leave/the cops caller &having to deal with that) (I know concealed means concealed so if you’re doing it right no one should know). Do you avoid the business all together (if they don’t support your rights, don’t give them $), or do you just leave your gun in the car and go in.

Depends. If I can’t quickly and securely stow my weapon, the sign is not legal, I need something inside the business, AND I can quickly conduct my business and leave.... then yeah, I will dart in, do what I need, and get the hell out.

I also strongly advocate proper and complete concealment. I do not mention that I am carrying to anyone when I am out and about. My Jeep has a secure lockbox. So long as they don’t preach their gun hatred to me, I respect their rights to ask for my weapon to be left outside. I may or not frequent the business, but they have to work a bit harder to keep me as a customer.


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[croute]

It's my understanding that it's against the law to carry in government buildings and banks. Am I missing something? You're breaking the law and nobody cares?

 

[croute]

I still think this is a moot point. If you carry concealed, and conceal it like you should, why even bother with signs? Nobody will know, therefore no harm done.

 

[Bikenut]

It's my understanding that it's against the law to carry in government buildings and banks. Am I missing something? You're breaking the law and nobody cares?

There can be a difference in the law for Federal buildings and State laws for State buildings and for local laws (ordinances) government buildings.

In Michigan it is legal to carry a gun into county and township government buildings (as long as there isn't a court or court offices therein) and even the State Capitol building including into the offices of Representatives and Senators.

Michigan also has a law that prevents local units of government from passing laws or ordinances more strict than existing State law.

I would strongly suggest researching the applicable laws in your own State and the Federal laws too.

 

[Waffles]

In SC,if the sign is not exactly according to kawm it is not legally enforceable. However, they can ask you to leave and if you don't: Trespassing. That being said, do you want to take the chance of the owner notifying Police, the officer arrives and arrests you because most Police Officers in this State don't have the foggiest idea about Handgun Laws. You may be right but spend the night in the slammer, lose your weapon in the Evidence Process and get a Lawyer to get you out? Is it worth it. Use your best judgement.

Forgot to add: The sign must be posted at EVERY entrance. Example: A Movie has three entrances: 2 from outside (which are posted) and one thru the Mall, which is not posted, then, the facility is not posted. If you enter the Mall (which is not posted) and enter the Movie where there is no sign; It is not posted.