No Guns Allowed signs?

[jg1967]

OK we can leave it at that but still your the only one out of several hundred that took issue with it and it was liked more than disliked

It really helps people to understand what you are trying to say if you are expressing it in a structured and well worded fashion. I know that some of the youngsters these days are texting a lot and think any old combination of alphabet soup is proper language but ... ;-)

 

[jg1967]

They are in Michigan. You begin the first offense with a misdemeanor trespassing charge.

And they aren't in other places. The point is we have been brainwashed to believe these signs are about protecting the rights of property owners. They are not. They don't work to begin with as we have seen time and time again and they are completely redundant because the law already protects the property owner against somebody visiting violence on him with a gun.

 

[Bikenut]

They are in Michigan. You begin the first offense with a misdemeanor trespassing charge.

"No guns" signs in Michigan do NOT carry the weight of law. In order to be charged with the offense of trespass a person must first be asked to leave the property by the owner or a representative of the owner... and then refuse to leave. The "no guns" sign, or other posted notice of a no guns policy, in Michigan has no legal weight in and of itself.

In fact, just this week Michigan's Governor Snyder wanted to change the wording of Senate Bill # 59 to include language that would make new law creating "no gun" signage that would have the weight of law. Michigan's legislators refused to include that language in the bill. Of course the uproar from gun owners about that new language helped the legislators understand such signage language was unacceptable.

If a person wishes to learn more about actual Michigan law they can either go to the source and research black letter law here:

Michigan Legislature - Home

or they can go to the Michigan section of OpenCarryDotOrg (OCDO) and ask questions:

Link Removed

Or folks could do both.

 

[Gr8gunz]

OK we can leave it at that but still your the only one out of several hundred that took issue with it and it was liked more than disliked

Make that two! Spelling is atrocious as well. This is not meant to be contemptuous but it is very difficult to read your posts which are often quite lengthy. How does one "dislike" a post?

 

[Rhino]

How does one "dislike" a post?

You post a sign. :biggrin:

 

[ezkl2230]

"No guns" signs in Michigan do NOT carry the weight of law. In order to be charged with the offense of trespass a person must first be asked to leave the property by the owner or a representative of the owner... and then refuse to leave. The "no guns" sign, or other posted notice of a no guns policy, in Michigan has no legal weight in and of itself.

In fact, just this week Michigan's Governor Snyder wanted to change the wording of Senate Bill # 59 to include language that would make new law creating "no gun" signage that would have the weight of law. Michigan's legislators refused to include that language in the bill. Of course the uproar from gun owners about that new language helped the legislators understand such signage language was unacceptable.

If a person wishes to learn more about actual Michigan law they can either go to the source and research black letter law here:

Michigan Legislature - Home

or they can go to the Michigan section of OpenCarryDotOrg (OCDO) and ask questions:

Link Removed

Or folks could do both.

This is what handgunlaw.us has to say (the article was written by an attorney on the board of MCRGO):

Do “No Gun Signs” Have the Force of Law?

“YES”

Frequently Asked Question From MARGO Michigan Coalition For Responsible Gun Owners.

Q: Is there a specific design for the no gun allowed sign? Does the law say where it has to be placed at a business, such as on the door or adjacent window leading into the business?

A: There are no specifications for "No Guns" or "No Weapons" signs in Michigan law. Under the law, there are two ways for a CPL holder to know that guns are not allowed in a specific location. The first is the list of "Pistol Free Zones" (often colloquially referred to as violent criminal empowerment zones) that we must all memorize, which is part of the CPL statute (Pistol Free Areas).

The second is when the owner or lessor of any real property communicates to us that our guns are not welcome there. That communication must be reasonable in order to be effective. By reasonable, I don't mean polite. I mean that there is an effective means of communicating to us that we are not welcome so long as we are carrying our guns. This can be done with a sign, verbally, or in some kind of printed material.

For instance, if there is a reasonably-sized and located sign in a retail establishment indicating that guns or weapons are not allowed, that would constitute reasonable notice. If an employee of the same establishment actually tells you that you may not carry on the premises, that would constitute reasonable notice. If your employer has an employee handbook or some kind of printed guidelines, and includes a prohibition on guns and/or weapons, that would constitute reasonable notice.

If you choose to ignore any such reasonable notice, then you become a trespasser rather than a business invitee. Trespass can be punished as a crime and/or in civil court, and could affect your CPL licensing status.

Steve Dulan (Welcome to The Law Offices of Steven W. Dulan, PLC) is a member of the Board of Directors of the MCRGO and the MCRGO Foundation, and a member of the Board of Trustees of the MCRGO Foundation. He is an attorney in private practice in East Lansing and Adjunct Professor of firearms law at The Thomas M. Cooley Law School. as well as an Endowment Member of the NRA.

 

[Rocketgeezer]

Make that two! Spelling is atrocious as well. This is not meant to be contemptuous but it is very difficult to read your posts which are often quite lengthy. How does one "dislike" a post?

Well EXCUSE ME, I mistakenly thought we were talking about no guns allowed signs, not grade school grammer, I never seen anybody that did not understand what I was saying in my post's, and I'm only putting this in because I have nothing else to do at the moment, also I dont really care if anybody thinks that I really care if my typed grammer is "proper" or not.................don't you guys have anything better to do than to ck over a gun sight forum's posts for correctness??????????

 

[Bikenut]

This is what handgunlaw.us has to say (the article was written by an attorney on the board of MCRGO):

Please provide the actual MCL (Michigan Compiled Law) that says.. in black letter law.. that specifically states a "no guns" sign or a written posting of a "no guns policy" has the weight of law in Michigan.

I'm not being a jerk... I would love to see that law because if it exists then I will have learned something new.

Edited to add:

Thanks ezkl2230 ....I did learn something new.

I had been looking under firearms laws and that was where my understanding came from so I did some research and although I don't have the applicable trespass law to post I did find that "notice" of "trespass" can take different forms and still be valid "notice"... so a gun buster sign or a written notice somewhere would be legal "notice" that violation of that policy constitutes "trespass".

However... a "no guns" sign is not a firearms violation... just a trespass issue.

Edited again: From...

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(xo...eg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-552

THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931


750.552 Trespass upon lands or premises of another; violation; penalty.

Sec. 552.

(1) A person shall not do any of the following:

(a) Enter the lands or premises of another without lawful authority after having been forbidden so to do by the owner or occupant or the agent of the owner or occupant.

(b) Remain without lawful authority on the land or premises of another after being notified to depart by the owner or occupant or the agent of the owner or occupant.
-snip-

And where it gets sticky is defining what constituted "notice" or having been "forbidden" ... in court. It may be a sign will be accepted IF it is posted in plain sight where it is easily seen... or the sign may not be accepted if it is posted way off in an obscure corner of the store or in the last stall of the employees bathroom. (Yes, that was an extreme example).

 

[ezkl2230]

Please provide the actual MCL (Michigan Compiled Law) that says.. in black letter law.. that specifically states a "no guns" sign or a written posting of a "no guns policy" has the weight of law in Michigan.

I'm not being a jerk... I would love to see that law because if it exists then I will have learned something new.

Edited to add:

Thanks ezkl2230 ....I did learn something new.

If there was any question about this before, SB 59, which was passed last night and is now going to the governor for his signature (which he promised in exchange for elimination of the right to open carry in a pfz if you possess a CPL), removes all doubt:

Sec. 5o (11)

(11) NOTHING IN THIS SECTION PROHIBITS A PRIVATE PROPERTY
OWNER FROM PROHIBITING AN INDIVIDUAL FROM CARRYING A PISTOL,
INCLUDING A PISTOL THAT IS OPENLY DISPLAYED OR CARRIED IN VIOLATION
OF SUBSECTION (13), ON THE PREMISES OF PROPERTY DESCRIBED IN
SUBSECTION (1), AND ENFORCING THAT PROHIBITION UNDER SECTION 552 OF
THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.552.

While SB 59 allows cc now in a pfz if you have taken the additional classes required to get an exemption to pfz's, it also specifically allows "privately owned" businesses that qualify as pistol free zones under Michigan law to post themselves as private property upon which firearms carry is prohibited and explicitly gives it the force of law.

 

[K7lvo]

OK we can leave it at that but still your the only one out of several hundred that took issue with it and it was liked more than disliked

Okay, here's number 2: I read it BECAUSE I enjoyed the content. Had I not become interested in the first couple of lines, I would have blown it off.

Somehow, from your response, I don't think this is the first time you've received this advise....

Oops, I see that I am number 3...

 

[jg1967]

Well EXCUSE ME, I mistakenly thought we were talking about no guns allowed signs, not grade school grammer, I never seen anybody that did not understand what I was saying in my post's, and I'm only putting this in because I have nothing else to do at the moment, also I dont really care if anybody thinks that I really care if my typed grammer is "proper" or not.................don't you guys have anything better to do than to ck over a gun sight forum's posts for correctness??????????

Chuckle, apparently we do not ;-) Actually all I am trying to say you are getting your point across more effectively if you express yourself clearly. Personally grammar does not bother me quite as much I understand that in the days of spellcheck that has suffered to some degree.

 

[Rocketgeezer]

Okay, here's number 2: I read it BECAUSE I enjoyed the content. Had I not become interested in the first couple of lines, I would have blown it off.

Somehow, from your response, I don't think this is the first time you've received this advise....

Oops, I see that I am number 3...

No its not, but I still dont give a crap, that its 3 or 300

 

[WTx1971]

In Texas I have not seen any no carry signs at regular retail locations. My bank has one but rarely go inside because of e-banking or the drive-thru. I have not been to a Toys-R-Us or Babys-R-Us in years.

 

[doug561]

That is why they call it conceal carry. No one is to know you are packing.

 

[jg1967]

That is why they call it conceal carry. No one is to know you are packing.

That's not an answer to signs. For starters we as law abiding citizens don't make CCW look very good carrying where we should not. Especially if you end up having to use your gun.

 

[doug561]

Here in the land of the free OklhomA we can open carry so we try to carry concealed and just ignore signs unless it is a federal building.

 

[Road king]

Went to a local "Outfitters" business, AKA Gun shop. There is an 8 1/2 X 11 sign, stating no loaded weapons inside store. So I went back to my car, disarmed myself and went in to find every employee carrying. I told them at the cash register, they just saw the last of my money, and why. What did he say? "We don't need your fuckin' business". Nice huh? I will refrain from naming the shop, thats' not my point, they have that right, no matter how much it costs them.

 

[Rocketgeezer]

Went to a local "Outfitters" business, AKA Gun shop. There is an 8 1/2 X 11 sign, stating no loaded weapons inside store. So I went back to my car, disarmed myself and went in to find every employee carrying. I told them at the cash register, they just saw the last of my money, and why. What did he say? "We don't need your fuckin' business". Nice huh? I will refrain from naming the shop, thats' not my point, they have that right, no matter how much it costs them.

You certainly have the right to tell Outfitters to stuff it, but I would have went in kept my weapon concealed with absolutly NO mention of it, bought what I needed and left, because it may make you feel better, but do you really think they care if you never go back in, theres 50 people waiting for you to get out of the way,

 

[Road king]

Outfitters see the light!

After giving it a little thought,I decided to call management. I explained why I was not going to patronize their store. There is now one less employee and the sign has been removed. He did say that if I were to carry concealed in the store, I would not have been asked to leave. The sign was supposedly place there, so no one would accidently bring in a loaded firearm for service or to sell or trade.

You certainly have the right to tell Outfitters to stuff it, but I would have went in kept my weapon concealed with absolutly NO mention of it, bought what I needed and left, because it may make you feel better, but do you really think they care if you never go back in, theres 50 people waiting for you to get out of the way,

 

[Nightmare45]

Every place I have been in here in Texas that sell or service weapons exempts ccw, sign applies to weapon being serviced.