New York man kills armed intruder, charged with manslaughter...

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ezkl2230

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A group of five men set up a home invasion. One intruder is seen on security video entering the home with a gun, there is a flash as he appears to fire a shot. A moment later, the intruder leaves the house with the defender, carrying a rifle, following. He pulls off a shot at one of the intruders off camera, hitting and killing one of the intruders. He is being charged with manslaughter because police didn't find any shell casings from the bad guy's gun. They say he had a BB gun. Here is the report, which includes footage from the security camera:


The defender, btw, was studying to become a police officer.
 
You got to be kidding, he was protecting his family and is in jail. Welcome to America but I guess that it's still the best place to live, hmmmm.
 
The video shows the perp pull a weapon and fire through the door, then enter the home. This is the moment the homeowner may defend himself. Once he's out the door and retreating is not the time to shoot back. It's no longer "stand your ground" or home defense at this point.
Now, if the criminal had actually shot someone, this scenario may have been justified in many places. Being this place is NY, I wouldn't hold my breath for justice.
As it stands, the homeowner will be charged & most likely convicted of at least manslaughter, if not murder.
 
In the video we can't see what happens when they move off camera. What if the perp turned and pointed the gun at the homeowner again? Would that not be a mitigating factor? I agree that if they are simply retreating this guy is in the wrong. But it doesn't seem like we have all the info.


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Yeah, he should have moved to Michigan at some point. The use of the handgun automatically makes the home invasion a felony, and Michigan has the fleeing felon rule - we can use force up to and including lethal to prevent a felon from fleeing, so the fact that he's running away isn't the problem here that it is in other states.
 
Dirt bags in NY obviously have more rights than law abiding citizens, very sad state of affairs.
 
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IMO when he left the house and fired at the guy he made a mistake especially living in the Peoples Republic of NY. My thoughts are if you shoot at someone you are fair game but some states are very restrictive about this. I hate what this guy is now going through especially finding out how a lot of the US has changed to favor criminal scumbags. I hope somehow they let him go.
 
The only thing that scares me more than ignorance is ignorance with a gun.
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Before the NY bashing begins let's look at this. Under NY law, anyone using a fake gun in the commission of a crime is charged with the actual gun crime. But you still can't shoot a fleeing suspect, especially after he's left your property, unless letting him go presents an immediate threat to others. Not in NY, not anywhere I know of. Someone cite other state laws that allow you to chase down an intruder and shoot him in the back after he's fled the premise. I would like the citations in your state laws.
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According to police... "The brothers chased the alleged burglars from the porch, and Youssef fired, striking a 33-year-old man from Roosevelt in the back. That man, Jazzmen Bryant, later died of his wounds. The District Attorney’s office said the man who died was shot in a neighbor’s backyard as he ran away. A pellet gun was recovered from the group of alleged burglars."
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Here's the law allowing use of force or deadly force against an intruder. NYS Penal Law Article 35:
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S 35.15 Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person.
2. A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:
(a) The actor reasonably believes that such other person is using or about to use deadly physical force. Even in such case, however, the actor may not use deadly physical force if he or she knows that with complete personal safety, to oneself and others he or she may avoid the necessity of so doing by retreating; except that the actor is under no duty to retreat if he or she is: (i) in his or her dwelling and not the initial aggressor; or
(c) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary, and the circumstances are such that the use of deadly physical force is authorized by subdivision three of section 35.20.
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So let's look at 35.20 regarding burglary.
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S 35.20 Justification; use of physical force in defense of premises and in defense of a person in the course of burglary.
3. A person in possession or control of, or licensed or privileged to be in, a dwelling or an occupied building, who reasonably believes that another person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such dwelling or building, may use deadly physical force upon such other person when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of such burglary.
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Now here's the rub. The homeowner pursued the perp off the property and shot him in the back. No cigar. Can't do that. Should the home invader be killed? Absolutely, when he's on the property though. Can you chase him down and kill him? Absolutely not... unless letting him go poses immediate and grave threat to another. Critics need to check their own state law. They may find most states have this exact provision. In his book "In the Gravest Extreme," Mas Ayoob specifically covers this issue. He states that if you pursue a perp and engage him after he has tried to withdraw, the court may see this as a second incident, unrelated to the first. Thus the recommendation is to never pursue the perp unless allowing him to retreat presents an immediate danger to others. Then again its fun to bash.
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Perhaps critics should look at how often a homeowner shoots an intruder in NYS and is NOT arrested. An interesting case is People v. Raymond Zayas where Zayas shot a LEO through the door as he was kicking-it down without warning. His conviction and 40 year sentence was thrown-out because the jury wasn't instructed that he had the right under NYS law to shoot in that situation. He eventually plead guilty to other charges to avoid retrial (criminal possession of a weapon).
 
The video shows the perp pull a weapon and fire through the door, then enter the home. This is the moment the homeowner may defend himself. Once he's out the door and retreating is not the time to shoot back. It's no longer "stand your ground" or home defense at this point.
Now, if the criminal had actually shot someone, this scenario may have been justified in many places. Being this place is NY, I wouldn't hold my breath for justice.
As it stands, the homeowner will be charged & most likely convicted of at least manslaughter, if not murder.
Stand your ground is a media colloquialism, not a legal concept. What you're searching for is castle doctrine. Whether New York has it or not I don't know, but I think you've hit the nail on the head. Chasing a retreating suspect who no longer represents a direct threat is most often going to put you into a bad legal situation, castle doctrine or not.

The only thing that scares me more than ignorance is ignorance with a gun.......
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...Thus the recommendation is to never pursue the perp unless allowing him to retreat presents an immediate danger to others. Then again its fun to ignorantly bash....
And BC1 explains it in great detail.
 
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Before the NY bashing begins let's look at this.

That's why I included the observation regarding the fact that he is studying to be a NY cop; theoretically, he should have had at least something of an idea of the limitations that exist in a defensive situation.

As for your request for citations, here is the fleeing felon rule from Michigan:

"The use of deadly force to prevent the escape of a fleeing felon is justifiable where the following three circumstances are present: (1) the
evidence must show that a felony actually occurred, (2) the fleeing suspect
against whom force was used must be the person who committed the felony,
and (3) the use of deadly force must have been "necessary" to ensure the
apprehension of the felon. People v Hampton, 194 Mich App 593, 596-597; 487
NW2d 843 (1992)," quoted in the appeals case People v Nekeal Jones, Link Removed
 
BC1 summed this one up perfectly. If the perp is fleeing, you no longer have legal recourse to the use of deadly force.
 
Stand your ground is a media colloquialism, not a legal concept. What you're searching for is castle doctrine. Whether New York has it or not I don't know, but I think you've hit the nail on the head. Chasing a retreating suspect who no longer represents a direct threat is most often going to put you into a bad legal situation, castle doctrine or not.

And BC1 explains it in great detail.
No, NY doesn't have an all-encompassing castle doctrine. The law gives homeowners a wide berth in use of deadly force in the home but there's no bar to civil suits. There is a duty to retreat when in public, but only to the extent you can do so with complete safety and provided you haven't yet been attacked. You can't safely retreat with kids or if elderly, sickly, etc. so you may do what you must. Duty to retreat is intended to defuse a situation before it gets to harm. Two guys having words should each walk away. But once the first guy opens-up the ball the other may defend self or others as necessary.
 
"That's why I included the observation regarding the fact that he is studying to be a NY cop; theoretically, he should have had at least something of an idea of the limitations that exist in a defensive situation."

Maybe that it part of the problem. There are almost no limitations when it comes to the force an officer can use no matter if it is self defense or pulling someone over for running a stop sign. This guy got too big for his britches before he actually became a cop. If he were a cop he would get away with hitting other innocent people while he fired after a fleeing felon. Maybe the silver lining here is that this guy will not become an officer and a guy who needed a dose of vitamin Pb received the medicine he needed.
 
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but once the intruder breaks into your home, I think it's OPEN ******* SEASON! Whether he's armed with a bb gun or a hand grenade, he just BROKE INTO YOUR HOME!
 

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