New School Prayor


Uh...before we start arguing about whether the U.S. was founded on Christianity, shouldn't we first argue about which version of Christianity?

Or should we just let Glenn Beck make the call - he seems to have appointed himself as the decider of who is and who isn't a real Christian:


Link Removed

And this from a Mormon no less. Are people "buying" Glenn's version? If so, how much are they paying?

Which version of Christianity is like asking which version of Islam we are dealing with. There are 3 types of religious people I have observed regardless of the religion in question:
1. Those who ignore what they don't like in their texts and claim the religion is just and tolerant .
2. Those who ignore what they don't like in their texts and persecute those who do not observe as they do.
3. Those who ignore what they don't like in their texts and attack those who disagree.

Are there other categories I have missed?
 

There's no argument that the founding fathers did not want a government based on religion (like some Arab countries who's government is run on Sharia law). This does not eliminate the fact that they founded this country on Christian principles. This is shown time and time again in their own words if you research their quotes on religion. True the Constitution was written to prevent a Church take over of the government, however, it was not written to remove any evidence of religion. Go ahead bring up "separation of Church and state" but first show me where that's written in the Constitution.

Ok, lets start with Thomas Jefferson:
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782


But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782


What is it men cannot be made to believe!

-Thomas Jefferson to Richard Henry Lee, April 22, 1786. (on the British regarding America, but quoted here for its universal appeal.)


Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787


Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom


I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")


I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789


They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.

-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800


Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802


History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.


The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814


Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814


In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814


If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp, 30 July, 1816

My opinion is that there would never have been an infidel, if there had never been a priest. The artificial structures they have built on the purest of all moral systems, for the purpose of deriving from it pence and power, revolts those who think for themselves, and who read in that system only what is really there.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Mrs. Samuel H. Smith, August, 6, 1816

You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, June 25, 1819


As you say of yourself, I too am an Epicurian. I consider the genuine (not the imputed) doctrines of Epicurus as containing everything rational in moral philosophy which Greece and Rome have left us.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, Oct. 31, 1819


Priests...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Correa de Serra, April 11, 1820

Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820


To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820


Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind.

-Thomas Jefferson to James Smith, 1822.

I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823


And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823


It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825


May it be to the world, what I believe it will be, (to some parts sooner, to others later, but finally to all,) the signal of arousing men to burst the chains under which monkish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves, and to assume the blessings and security of self-government. All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Roger C. Weightman, June 24, 1826 (in the last letter he penned)
 
Which version of Christianity is like asking which version of Islam we are dealing with. There are 3 types of religious people I have observed regardless of the religion in question:
1. Those who ignore what they don't like in their texts and claim the religion is just and tolerant .
2. Those who ignore what they don't like in their texts and persecute those who do not observe as they do.
3. Those who ignore what they don't like in their texts and attack those who disagree.

Are there other categories I have missed?

You missed the Amosites - they believe that real Christians just "listen to Jesus" and that the bibles are really Satan's books. They base their believes on the warning of the prophet Amos in Amos 8:11 in which the prophet stated "the day will come when people stop listening to the Lord" and the fact that Jesus only preached, he never wrote anything. They believe God sent Jesus to end the growing corrupt use and perversion of the Old Testament. In their view, the New Testament is only heard, never read.
 
You missed the Amosites - they believe that real Christians just "listen to Jesus" and that the bibles are really Satan's books. They base their believes on the warning of the prophet Amos in Amos 8:11 in which the prophet stated "the day will come when people stop listening to the Lord" and the fact that Jesus only preached, he never wrote anything. They believe God sent Jesus to end the growing corrupt use and perversion of the Old Testament. In their view, the New Testament is only heard, never read.

Is your argument that the "New Testament" is flawless and preaches only good moral values? Or are you supporting the claims and positions of the Old Testament?
 
Is your argument that the "New Testament" is flawless and preaches only good moral values? Or are you supporting the claims and positions of the Old Testament?

Neither - I'm just stating alternate views of scripture - the Amosites are different from most Christians sects in that they reject the written New Testament in its entirety. They "hear" Jesus. Or so they claim.
 
Stick to one screen name, dood.....

boom, you can\'t tell people they are ridiculous over at the ranch. Why do you do it here?

First, I say what I earnestly believe, wherever I happen to be. :pleasantry:

Second, I find it awfully odd that suddenly we have several different screen names with low post counts parroting the jerks who cause so much consternation over here. THAT is why so many have gone over there. Probably because the thumbs up/down are becoming effective.

Frikkin troll....
 
Neither - I'm just stating alternate views of scripture - the Amosites are different from most Christians sects in that they reject the written New Testament in its entirety. They "hear" Jesus. Or so they claim.

Ah, nm, was misinterpreting your previous comment. I was referring to Christians in general, not specific sects of Christianity.

First, I say what I earnestly believe, wherever I happen to be. :pleasantry:

Second, I find it awfully odd that suddenly we have several different screen names with low post counts parroting the jerks who cause so much consternation over here. THAT is why so many have gone over there. Probably because the thumbs up/down are becoming effective.

Frikkin troll....

Ah, the "low post count must be a troll" standard forum opinion. Sorry that isn't me. I joined the forum to be able to post in the Georgia section regarding this site's information on Georgia laws being outdated and no longer correct (if you don't believe me you can check my history, linking to a summary of the updated laws was my first post). Not sure where "over there" is or how it is relevant to this discussion (or the sidetrack this thread has gone on so far).
 
Ok, lets start with Thomas Jefferson:

Check your history and you'll find that these quotes, and similar quotes by other founding fathers, were concerning "state" run religion and specifically the British State Church. There is absolutely no argument that the founding fathers were adamantly against any kind of state religion. They didn't want religion controlling the government as was the church controlling England, Spain, Italy and many other governments at the time. They were, however, in the belief that the country would only prosper under God's guidance. For quotes concerning this see the following as there are too many to copy here.:

Quotes of the Founders : Founding Fathers quotes on religion, faith, Christianity
 
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Check your history and you'll find that these quotes, and similar quotes by other founding fathers, were concerning "state" run religion and specifically the British State Church. There is absolutely no argument that the founding fathers were adamantly against any kind of state religion. They didn't want religion controlling the government as was the church controlling England, Spain, Italy and many other governments at the time. They were, however, in the belief that the country would only prosper under God's guidance. For quotes concerning this see the following as there are too many to copy here.:

Quotes of the Founders : Founding Fathers quotes on religion, faith, Christianity

Yes, there were founding fathers that expressed the view that a "God's guidance" was necessary for prosperity. Yes, there were ideas some took from the Bible to influence the basic framework. That only means that they took ideas they felt were good and reasonable and used them in founding this country. That does not mean the U.S.A was "founded on Christianity." For every quote the supporters of that idea throw out the opposition throws out a quote to the contrary, often times both quotes being from the same person.

The only time I've ever read anything official from that time regarding whether they founded the country on Christianity is the treaty that states (officially) that this country was not founded on Christianity and ratified unanimously by Congress and Signed by the President (who also happened to sign the Constitution). It isn't vague, it doesn't flounder back and forth on the issue and it doesn't require interpretation or extrapolation. It was all 138 members of Congress and the President stating explicitly that "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
I'm not sure how that can be argued with.

If your argument is that while it is not founded on Christianity but the Christian faith of some of the founders influenced their decisions then I have no argument with that, though I don't understand how that would be relevant to prayer in school.
 
Yes, there were founding fathers that expressed the view that a "God's guidance" was necessary for prosperity. Yes, there were ideas some took from the Bible to influence the basic framework. That only means that they took ideas they felt were good and reasonable and used them in founding this country. That does not mean the U.S.A was "founded on Christianity." For every quote the supporters of that idea throw out the opposition throws out a quote to the contrary, often times both quotes being from the same person.

The only time I've ever read anything official from that time regarding whether they founded the country on Christianity is the treaty that states (officially) that this country was not founded on Christianity and ratified unanimously by Congress and Signed by the President (who also happened to sign the Constitution). It isn't vague, it doesn't flounder back and forth on the issue and it doesn't require interpretation or extrapolation. It was all 138 members of Congress and the President stating explicitly that "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
I'm not sure how that can be argued with.

If your argument is that while it is not founded on Christianity but the Christian faith of some of the founders influenced their decisions then I have no argument with that, though I don't understand how that would be relevant to prayer in school.

I believe you're referencing the Treaty Of Tripoli here and, again, this meant that the U.S. had no state religion and held that there would be no action against their religion. As for prayer in school, the founding fathers didn't want a state religion but they didn't want Christianity wiped from every nook and cranny either. If this was the case why would they sanction a day of prayer and rest from work? Many things are being done today in the name of "separation of Church and state" when this is nowhere in the Constitution. Yes there was some reference to it by the founding fathers and again this was meaning a separation from the church controlling government, not that any reference to religion was to be wiped from schools, courthouses, government owned buildings, etc.
 
I believe you're referencing the Treaty Of Tripoli here and, again, this meant that the U.S. had no state religion and held that there would be no action against their religion. As for prayer in school, the founding fathers didn't want a state religion but they didn't want Christianity wiped from every nook and cranny either. If this was the case why would they sanction a day of prayer and rest from work? Many things are being done today in the name of "separation of Church and state" when this is nowhere in the Constitution. Yes there was some reference to it by the founding fathers and again this was meaning a separation from the church controlling government, not that any reference to religion was to be wiped from schools, courthouses, government owned buildings, etc.

I'll disagree with your "interpretation" of the Treaty of Tripoli. The writings of the time were very carefully worded and if they meant "the U.S. had no state religion" I think they would have said that instead of directly stating that we were not "founded on Christianity" as they did state.

I will agree that the "separation of church and state" is not in the Constitution and the intention of the 1st Amendment has been lost in recent history. The founders clearly had no issue with religion being practiced on government property (they held services in the Capital building after all). That said, mandated religious practices were not conducted (from anything I've read) and the only prohibition on "prayer in school" that I'm aware of is in regard to "mandated prayer or mandated presence during prayer." In Vitale the SCOTUS ruled that a "state authored" prayer could not be mandated (clearly state sponsored/supported religion) and in Schempp they ruled that the school could not mandate reading or prayers from the Bible but the ruling specifically stated that private prayers, prayer groups, discussions among students or even the study of religion was not prohibited.

Prayers are fine, forced subjection to prayers or state authored prayers are prohibited. That seems in line with the voluntary religious services the founders and the 1st Amendment. I think if a Muslim principle was reading from the Quran every morning in public school then more people would understand the distinction between mandated prayer or subjection to it rather than prohibition of prayer. Just my interpretation. Others may vary but I side with the SCOTUS on this issue.
 
I'll disagree with your "interpretation" of the Treaty of Tripoli. The writings of the time were very carefully worded and if they meant "the U.S. had no state religion" I think they would have said that instead of directly stating that we were not "founded on Christianity" as they did state.

I will agree that the "separation of church and state" is not in the Constitution and the intention of the 1st Amendment has been lost in recent history. The founders clearly had no issue with religion being practiced on government property (they held services in the Capital building after all). That said, mandated religious practices were not conducted (from anything I've read) and the only prohibition on "prayer in school" that I'm aware of is in regard to "mandated prayer or mandated presence during prayer." In Vitale the SCOTUS ruled that a "state authored" prayer could not be mandated (clearly state sponsored/supported religion) and in Schempp they ruled that the school could not mandate reading or prayers from the Bible but the ruling specifically stated that private prayers, prayer groups, discussions among students or even the study of religion was not prohibited.

Prayers are fine, forced subjection to prayers or state authored prayers are prohibited. That seems in line with the voluntary religious services the founders and the 1st Amendment. I think if a Muslim principle was reading from the Quran every morning in public school then more people would understand the distinction between mandated prayer or subjection to it rather than prohibition of prayer. Just my interpretation. Others may vary but I side with the SCOTUS on this issue.

I don't know how old you are but if you have school age kids, especially middle school or high school, tell them to kneel down in the hallway and pray for a couple of minutes. Have them report back on what happens. If nothing happens I congratulate you for having a school still has principles. I think you would find though that they would be stopped and told that it is "inappropriate" behavior and not allowed in public schools. This nation has strayed far from the principles it was founded on and this is true of more than just prayer in schools. It's been happening for many years and not just under the current administration. It's alright to desecrate the flag, to claim to be awarded the Medal of Honor, lie about military service, have illegal immigrants demand the same rights as legal immigrants and citizens but oh no there can't be prayer in schools or the Ten Commandments in courts, etc. We simply need to get back to what this country once was and the only way to do that is return to those principles the founding fathers started with.
 
I raised four kids - all went to public schools from k through 12. There was no time when they had an opportunity to "kneel in prayer in the hallway" - not because the schools were anti-praying, but because they schools were focused on education, and the hallways were for moving children from one place to another rather than for public exhibitions.

Some who stopped and started break dancing would be treated the same as someone who stopped and knelt to pray - they be told to move on - the hallway was no place for such activites.

The biggest problem I have with those who complain about not being able to pray in the schools is that they don't want to pray - they want to proselytize. They want to demonstrate their religious practices to a captive audience. They are dishonest in their intentions. And i believe that they are insecure in their beliefs because they aren't comfortable praying to their god but rather they need others to participate to give their beliefs credence.
 
Ah, the "low post count must be a troll" standard forum opinion. Sorry that isn't me. I joined the forum to be able to post in the Georgia section regarding this site's information on Georgia laws being outdated and no longer correct (if you don't believe me you can check my history, linking to a summary of the updated laws was my first post). Not sure where "over there" is or how it is relevant to this discussion (or the sidetrack this thread has gone on so far).

If you read my comment, you will see that I was not referring to you at all. Please check the comment that I quoted.
 
I raised four kids - all went to public schools from k through 12. There was no time when they had an opportunity to "kneel in prayer in the hallway" - not because the schools were anti-praying, but because they schools were focused on education, and the hallways were for moving children from one place to another rather than for public exhibitions.

Some who stopped and started break dancing would be treated the same as someone who stopped and knelt to pray - they be told to move on - the hallway was no place for such activites.

The biggest problem I have with those who complain about not being able to pray in the schools is that they don't want to pray - they want to proselytize. They want to demonstrate their religious practices to a captive audience. They are dishonest in their intentions. And i believe that they are insecure in their beliefs because they aren't comfortable praying to their god but rather they need others to participate to give their beliefs credence.

Let me say that I don't believe anyone should be forced to pray. A belief should not be forced on anyone and that goes for forcing the removal of a belief. I gave the hallway prayer as an example. My point is that if you are seen praying during school hours you will be talked to even if it's during lunch or a small recess. Preaching to, or "proselytizing" to, someone can be an attempt to force a belief on someone and I already said I'm against trying to force someone into a belief. If someone wants to take a moment in school to pray there should be no problem with that. This goes for anyone who doesn't believe in prayer, they should not be forced to do so. By removing that choice you are forcing a belief on me and that is what I'm saying the wrong is.
 
My point is that if you are seen praying during school hours you will be talked to even if it's during lunch or a small recess.

Don't know what schools you are referencing, but I can tell you I see several teachers as well as students silently praying for blessings for their lunch. Includes the schools one of my daughters went to in Georgia (Lilburn, Lawerenceville, Snellville) as well as the schools in where we live now in SC.
 
Don't know what schools you are referencing, but I can tell you I see several teachers as well as students silently praying for blessings for their lunch. Includes the schools one of my daughters went to in Georgia (Lilburn, Lawerenceville, Snellville) as well as the schools in where we live now in SC.

I know that there are still a few schools that haven't jumped on the band wagon yet. Most of them are in the south but even here and the "Bible Belt" there are schools that have stopped it because someone complained and the SCOTUS upheld the bans. The following will give a better understanding of banned prayer. Pay particular attention to the fact that SCOTUS even banned "voluntary" school prayer where anyone not wishing to participate could leave. They used the First Amendment in many of these cases. I ask how does allowing prayer, especially voluntary prayer, establish a religion?

School Prayer/Pledge Of Allegiance: Encyclopedia of Everyday Law
 
I know that there are still a few schools that haven't jumped on the band wagon yet. Most of them are in the south but even here and the "Bible Belt" there are schools that have stopped it because someone complained and the SCOTUS upheld the bans. The following will give a better understanding of banned prayer. Pay particular attention to the fact that SCOTUS even banned "voluntary" school prayer where anyone not wishing to participate could leave. They used the First Amendment in many of these cases. I ask how does allowing prayer, especially voluntary prayer, establish a religion?

School Prayer/Pledge Of Allegiance: Encyclopedia of Everyday Law

Every child, teacher, and administrator in every school in the United States can pray whenever they feel like praying.

Claiming otherwise is dishonest.

What they can't do is force others to disrupt their educational experience because someone feels the need to exhibitionists their praying.
 
Every child, teacher, and administrator in every school in the United States can pray whenever they feel like praying.

Claiming otherwise is dishonest.

What they can't do is force others to disrupt their educational experience because someone feels the need to exhibitionists their praying.

All I can say to that is read the following:

Link Removed

12 Students Suspended for Praying at School | Christianpost.com

Expulsion threatened over prayer for sick teacher

This is only a few examples and there are many more. Now what was that about dishonesty?
 

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