My Letter To Senator Tamara Barringer/Sheriff Harrison about Conceal Carry Delay

[Jamie Snipes]

From: j s [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 10:00 AM
Subject: 90 day delay for conceal carry

At the end of November I applied for my conceal carry permit in Wake County. It is January 25th and I have still not received it. I have done research and found that across the state waiting times vary significantly, from as little as 15 days to the full 90.

As a federal employee and veteran, I am familiar with back ground checks and I am aware that they are relatively instant once finger prints have been collected. I believe "instant" is the 'i' in NICS check which the Sheriffs department uses for back ground checks.

Why then does it take exactly 90 days to receive this permit in Wake county, but not other counties? I believe it comes down to a loop hole which allows the Sheriff to delay the issuance of these permits. What can you do to close this loop hole... to put these permits in the hands of Law abiding citizens in this county in a timely manner?

Thanks,

Jamie S.

****************************************************

From: Gloria Whitehead (Sen. Tamara Barringer) On Behalf Of Sen. Tamara Barringer
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:45 AM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: FW: 90 day delay for conceal carry

Dear Sheriff Harrison:

Could you help us ( the Senator) in a response to this?

Kindest regards,

Gloria

Gloria Whitehead
Legislative Assistant
Senator Tamara Barringer
17th District
309 Legislative Office Building
300 N. Salisbury Street
Raleigh, NC 27603-5925
919-733-5653

*****************************************************

From: Gloria Whitehead (Sen. Tamara Barringer) <[email protected]>
To: "'[email protected]'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 1:51 PM
Subject: FW: 90 day delay for conceal carry

Dear Jamie:

I have contacted the Sheriff’s office regarding your concern and the Sheriff asked that you email him at [email protected] so he can personally look into this matter.

Thank you for contacting our office in that we might assist you with this.

Kindest regards,

Gloria

Gloria Whitehead
Legislative Assistant
Senator Tamara Barringer
17th District
309 Legislative Office Building
300 N. Salisbury Street
Raleigh, NC 27603-5925
919-733-5653


******************************************
From: j s [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 3:30 PM
To: Gloria Whitehead (Sen. Tamara Barringer); [email protected]
Subject: Re: 90 day delay for conceal carry

Gloria,

I truly appreciate your prompt response on this issue. I will certainly brag about it on the appropriate social networking forums.

Before I contact the Sheriff about this issue, I would like to get more information about the conceal carry legislation in this state. It is my understanding that the Sheriff's department has a certain amount of turnaround for these permits which is where, I believe, the 90 days comes into play.

In order to get this permit, a person must do the following.
1. Pay for a course which can cost $120 or more
2. Take 8 hours out of their week to complete this course
3. Take time off to go to the Sheriff's office during the week to pay $90 and complete finger prints/paper work
4. Wait up to 90 days to receive a piece of paper that you have to carry with you whenever you have a firearm concealed.
5. In 5 years, you have to repeat steps 3-4

The alternative is to open carry which often can result in anything from unwanted attention to an outright encounter with police because people over react to the site of handguns.

It is clear that it is being made difficult to obtain a conceal carry permit, but for those who have jumped through the hoops to then be made to wait up to 90 days while 'instant' checks are performed is absurd.

There are several forums dedicated to conceal carry, one such is:
Applied for concealed permit today in NC - Page 2

A quick look shows that there is a wide range of turnaround time for these permits, from as few as a week to as much as 3 months. Since the Sheriff's office in Wake County uses instant checks, my finger prints were electronic, I was already on file from having purchased handgun permits, and I'm a federal employee, why does it take so long for this process to complete?

If she is not already thinking about it, I would like to see Sen. Barringer propose legislation to expedite the process. Here are a few ways to do that:
1. Provide vouchers for the conceal carry courses or other types of reimbursment for time/money to take the course
2. Mandate a time period for all counties that is reasonable for this modern electronic world (2 weeks?)
3. Link up databases for handgun permit holders and those applying for conceal carry to eliminate paper work (why do i need to be finger printed more than once?)
4. Create sanctions for sheriffs departments that go over the allotted time. Perhaps a percentage of the $90 fee could be returned for everyday it goes over.

I would like to hear from the Sheriffs office about the difficulties they are encountering.
1. How long does it take to transmit the information collected to the FBI for background checks?
2. How long does it take to receive this information?
3. Once this information is received, how long to mail the permit?
3. Why is the information collected for handgun permits not reused for conceal carry permits?


In conclusion, while its clear that the Revenue generation aspects of conceal carry have been put in place, the execution of the process seems to be lagging far behind. Asking people to hand over $90 for a permit, I believe, brings with it the expectation that the money is going toward the processes involved in receiving the permit. It makes little sense then why their would be such a discrepancy across the counties. Being one of the more wealthy counties, with more people applying for permits, there should be plenty of revenue to make sure this process gets handled in a timely manner.

I have included the Sheriff on this email so that we can get his perspective on the issue.

Thank you for your time,

************************************

Jamie

I received the email you sent Senator Barringer and would like to discuss this issue with you. If you would call me at 919.856.7565, I can get the information we need to determine if we are in compliance. If I am on the phone or away from my desk, I will call you back as soon as I can.

I am very committed to the mission of the Wake County Sheriff's Office: The citizens of Wake County are not an interruption of our day but the purpose of it. I look forward to talking to you.

Donnie Harrison
Wake County Sheriff
P. O. Box 550
Raleigh, NC 27602
919.856.7565

E-mail correspondence to and from this address is subject to the North Carolina Public Records Act and may be disclosed to third parties unless made confidential under applicable law.

 

[Couch Potato]

There is no "full 90 days" anymore, that was the old law. It used to be the sheriff had to act on the application within 90 days of it being submitted. The time limit is now 45 days, but the clock no longer starts running when the application is turned in. These days it is 45 days after "receipt of the required records concerning the mental health or capacity of the applicant, the sheriff shall either issue or deny the permit." There is no time limit on mental health officials responding to requests for records so there is in essence no longer any time limit on the application being approved or denied. Likely it is not the sheriff to whom you need to complain, rather it is your local mental health officials.

 

[frijoli]

I will be following this thread to see how the sheriff does his job or doesn't.

 

[Couch Potato]

The big problem with the current law is there is no way to determine if the sheriff did the job right or not because there is no way to track request/receipt of the mental health report(s) or the required extent of such reports. I hope it exists, but I am not even positive a law exist requiring mental health officials to respond to requests from the sheriff for such reports. People got excited because the number changed from 90 to 45, but failed to see the terrible wording around the new number.

 

[Jamie Snipes]

I have an update on this.

I received my permit on a Saturday. I believe it was about 40 days. The Sheriff actually called me personally on the following Tuesday so I will describe that conversation because I don't possess any transcripts...

When I applied for Conceal Carry is was with a group of people I work with. After waiting about 37 days and having read posts on this forum, one sent me an email which I felt obliged to forward on to the Senator. In it, the person, a veteran, stated "As a veteran and Federal Employee, I am familiar with background checks and finger printing".

This is important background information to have. The Sheriff called me personally and we began our conversation cordially. However, he quickly brought the focus to my Conceal Carry Application. He noted that I did not check any of the boxes indicating that I was a Veteran. I really didn't know what he was talking about until he read the quote from the letter that I had sent to the Senator and said "You are either lying on your application or lying in the email, and lying on the application is against the law". I explained I had forwarded the letter on to the Senator, that I was accurate on my paper work, and that after all the time waiting for the background checks, I hoped that he was confident that everything checked out.

The Sheriff went on to say that he did not like being accused of playing politics with the permits, that there is no 'loophole' which would allow him to do so, that he and his staff send the applications to the FBI/SBI within a day of receiving them. He said that all the waiting was due to the FBI/SBI. When they return the results of their check, he said the Sheriffs department has the permit in the mail within another day.

I brought up the fact that his staff references 90 day waiting period when you apply, even though the state says 45 days. He said that he has to mail the certificate within 45 days of receiving notification from the FBI/SBI.

So while it is obvious that there is a 'loophole' by which either the Sheriff could delay sending the applications on or the FBI/SBI could delay sending them back, it seems in this case that the Sheriff is sending the applications efficiently.

While I'm happy the Sheriff took the time to call me, I'm disappointed with the incident where it seemed he was accusing me of lying, but I can see where he would be flustrated because he has to deal with these complains all the time. I explained to him that this was not a political witch hunt, I was merely trying to highlight the flaws in the System that will only get worse if additional strain is put on it by new gun laws, that the money we pay into it demands that the System be made to work efficiently

Below are my follow up emails with Senator Barringer. The response from her office is typical of Politicians:

Dear Jamie:

In the Senate structure the committee that might handle this type of laws would be the Judiciary II Committee. The Senator does not serve on that committee. Although the Senator is sympathetic to your issue the Senate does not enforce the laws they only make the laws. Our Understanding is that the Sheriff has 45 days from the time his department gets all the necessary information returned to his office and he is under 45 days in the issuance of the permits.

Kindest regards,
Gloria



From: j s [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 2:50 PM
To: Gloria Whitehead (Sen. Tamara Barringer); [email protected]
Subject: Re: 90 day delay for conceal carry

I just got off the phone moments ago with the Sheriff (thank you Sheriff for taking time to speak with me) and would like to recap our conversation while its fresh on my mind.

It is important to note that the original email was sent to me by a coworker and I forwarded it on to the Senator for clarity on behalf of that person and myself. As the Sheriff pointed out after reviewing my conceal carry permit, I myself am not a veteran, but others whom I am inquiring on behalf of are. It is also important to note that my permit arrived last week (after I sent the original email about this issue). Lastly, while the paper work for handgun permits and conceal carry permits are similar, finger printing is not done for handgun permits. I had confused my being finger printed for my job by the Sheriff's department with being finger printed for handgun permits (both sets of finger prints were filed by the Sheriff's department, however).

After discussing the issue at length, these are the takeaways from the conversation:

-Sheriff's department staff indicated that it could take up to 90 days to receive a permit because in some cases it has taken that long
-For my application, it took the Sheriff's office about 2 days to send off the information for FBI/Mental Health screenings
-It took the Sheriff's department about another 2 days to mail out the permit once they received verification
-Nearly all the delay is a result of FBI/Mental Health screenings
-Sheriff indicated that law stipulates that he has up to 45 days to issue permits

While the Sheriffs department is doing an efficient job and processing the requests (especially during a time when there is a high number of requests), our conversation pointed out two related issues about the conceal carry process:

1. If law stipulates that 45 days is the time allowed for permit issuance, why then is it policy that Sheriff's department staff indicate that it can, and sometimes does, take up to 90 days? What are the consequences if the 45 day window is violated? If there is enough violation of the 45 day time limit to make it policy, then I believe it is our obligation to request that the Senator look into getting this issue resolved.

2. According to the statements the Sheriff made, it seems obvious that the delays are at the FBI/Mental health screening point of the conceal carry process. This means all Sheriff's departments should be getting their results back at roughly the same time, making this a statewide issue, which again, needs looking into by our representatives.

Conclusion:
45 days is the time period set forth by NC Statute § 14‑415.13. When applying for permit, no one should be told that they should expect to wait 90 days. Sheriff's departments across this state should not be delayed beyond the 45 day time frame by any agency. Allowing this to happens provides a loop hole through which lawful citizens are delayed in obtaining their conceal carry permit. I can't find any information on what the consequences are if the 45 day window is violated. If the system in place is already strained with the current demand, law makers need to be thinking about what will happen to it if recent events lead to even more demand being placed on the system.

I welcome the opportunity to speak to the Senator about these issues.

Sincerely,

Jamie



From: Gloria Whitehead (Sen. Tamara Barringer) <[email protected]>
To: 'j s' <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 3:37 PM
Subject: RE: 90 day delay for conceal carry

Dear Jamie:

Please send me your full name and phone number and I will try to get some answers to you.

Regards,
Gloria

Gloria Whitehead
Legislative Assistant
Senator Tamara Barringer
17th District
309 Legislative Office Building
300 N. Salisbury Street
Raleigh, NC 27603-5925
919-733-5653



From: j s [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 3:30 PM
To: Gloria Whitehead (Sen. Tamara Barringer); [email protected]
Subject: Re: 90 day delay for conceal carry

Gloria,

I truly appreciate your prompt response on this issue. I will certainly brag about it on the appropriate social networking forums.

Before I contact the Sheriff about this issue, I would like to get more information about the conceal carry legislation in this state. It is my understanding that the Sheriff's department has a certain amount of turnaround for these permits which is where, I believe, the 90 days comes into play.

In order to get this permit, a person must do the following.
1. Pay for a course which can cost $120 or more
2. Take 8 hours out of their week to complete this course
3. Take time off to go to the Sheriff's office during the week to pay $90 and complete finger prints/paper work
4. Wait up to 90 days to receive a piece of paper that you have to carry with you whenever you have a firearm concealed.
5. In 5 years, you have to repeat steps 3-4

The alternative is to open carry which often can result in anything from unwanted attention to an outright encounter with police because people over react to the site of handguns.

It is clear that it is being made difficult to obtain a conceal carry permit, but for those who have jumped through the hoops to then be made to wait up to 90 days while 'instant' checks are performed is absurd.

There are several forums dedicated to conceal carry, one such is:
Applied for concealed permit today in NC - Page 2

A quick look shows that there is a wide range of turnaround time for these permits, from as few as a week to as much as 3 months. Since the Sheriff's office in Wake County uses instant checks, my finger prints were electronic, I was already on file from having purchased handgun permits, and I'm a federal employee, why does it take so long for this process to complete?

If she is not already thinking about it, I would like to see Sen. Barringer propose legislation to expedite the process. Here are a few ways to do that:
1. Provide vouchers for the conceal carry courses or other types of reimbursment for time/money to take the course
2. Mandate a time period for all counties that is reasonable for this modern electronic world (2 weeks?)
3. Link up databases for handgun permit holders and those applying for conceal carry to eliminate paper work (why do i need to be finger printed more than once?)
4. Create sanctions for sheriffs departments that go over the allotted time. Perhaps a percentage of the $90 fee could be returned for everyday it goes over.

I would like to hear from the Sheriffs office about the difficulties they are encountering.
1. How long does it take to transmit the information collected to the FBI for background checks?
2. How long does it take to receive this information?
3. Once this information is received, how long to mail the permit?
3. Why is the information collected for handgun permits not reused for conceal carry permits?


In conclusion, while its clear that the Revenue generation aspects of conceal carry have been put in place, the execution of the process seems to be lagging far behind. Asking people to hand over $90 for a permit, I believe, brings with it the expectation that the money is going toward the processes involved in receiving the permit. It makes little sense then why their would be such a discrepancy across the counties. Being one of the more wealthy counties, with more people applying for permits, there should be plenty of revenue to make sure this process gets handled in a timely manner.

I have included the Sheriff on this email so that we can get his perspective on the issue.

Thank you for your time,

Jamie

From: Gloria Whitehead (Sen. Tamara Barringer) <[email protected]>
To: "'[email protected]'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 1:51 PM
Subject: FW: 90 day delay for conceal carry

Dear Jamie:

I have contacted the Sheriff’s office regarding your concern and the Sheriff asked that you email him at [email protected] so he can personally look into this matter.

Thank you for contacting our office in that we might assist you with this.

Kindest regards,

Gloria

Gloria Whitehead
Legislative Assistant
Senator Tamara Barringer
17th District
309 Legislative Office Building
300 N. Salisbury Street
Raleigh, NC 27603-5925
919-733-5653