Mixed feelings about local police.

gundaddypv

New member
Arizona is one of the most gun-friendly states in the Union. I love this place, but I'm not certain about my personal relationship with the local police.

There was a story about a year ago about our police belonging to a MC gang (they would say club) called The Iron Brotherhood. Turns out, our local Police Chief was the President of the local chapter and when some of his gang-buddies jumped some people at a local bar, then got away with it, he resigned.

There's no telling who is a member, but the way I see it, splitting your loyalty between an MC gang and the citizens makes you much less reliable.

Here's my question:
I want to support my local cops. I figure it starts at home. However, how do I get over the fact that some of them are gang members and therefore aren't committed to our community? Maybe this is a question for a psychologist or sociologist, but all input is welcome.

Oh - and how does the average citizen show support to the police without looking like they're trying to get special treatment? I'm truly grateful for what they do... when they're not getting in fights in bars and covering-up their crimes.
 
You take any demographic, about 10% of them will make that demographic look bad. They will be obnoxious, they will be corrupt, they will be nefarious. This isn't to say that the other 90% aren't upstanding members making their demographic look good. The problem is, the media, and even people in general focus on that 10%.

Here's the deal, you get pulled over. You want to support your local police, but in the back of your mind, you are asking yourself, is this cop going to be in the 10% group or the 90%. The thing is, you don't know. You need to be prepared for either. This is why I am not forthcoming with excessive details and information when I'm stopped.

I will not answer questions that are not prevalent without a lawyer present. The will only get from me what is legal... things like driver's license, registration, etc. If they want to know where I'm going or where I'm coming from, that is none of their business. I will let them know that I will not answer questions without my lawyer present. I'll be cooperative, but I will not be a victim.

You may want to support your local police (and I would say, go ahead and do so... they need our help) but I would also ask you this question, "who is supporting you?".

Here's how to show support for your police without getting special treatment: donate money through a trust. This way they don't know who it came from and you won't get special treatment.

The other thing you can do, there are volunteer opportunities such as civilian review board, auxiliary, crime watch, etc. that you can be involved with that supports cops without actually giving them money.
 
Arizona is one of the most gun-friendly states in the Union. I love this place, but I'm not certain about my personal relationship with the local police.

There was a story about a year ago about our police belonging to a MC gang (they would say club) called The Iron Brotherhood. Turns out, our local Police Chief was the President of the local chapter and when some of his gang-buddies jumped some people at a local bar, then got away with it, he resigned.

There's no telling who is a member, but the way I see it, splitting your loyalty between an MC gang and the citizens makes you much less reliable.

Here's my question:
I want to support my local cops. I figure it starts at home. However, how do I get over the fact that some of them are gang members and therefore aren't committed to our community? Maybe this is a question for a psychologist or sociologist, but all input is welcome.

Oh - and how does the average citizen show support to the police without looking like they're trying to get special treatment? I'm truly grateful for what they do... when they're not getting in fights in bars and covering-up their crimes.

Cops, by and large, operate like gangsters themselves, so why should it surprise anyone that some of 'em are out front about it by joining an actual known gang?

The "average" citizen is only average because they are sheep. If they can't think outside the sheep-like axiom that cops are to be trusted and are only here to "serve and protect," they set themselves up for huge disappointment when reality hits them over the head with a baton for having a burned out tail light, or when they get raped by the state for 14 hours over a rolling stop at a stop sign, a "bad" attitude and clinched-up butt cheeks (yeah, I know that sounds weird, but read the link).

I've been building and riding Harleys since I was 19 years old. Been to Sturgis nine times, Daytona seven times. I've known and/or worked with a mess of MC members. While rough around the edges, they were all "normal" guys when by themselves at work or if we just ran into each other at the range or wherever. When at a large run though, they closed ranks just like cops do. They were always on high alert because of rivalries with other clubs, just as cops maintain high alert and an "us and them" mentality throughout their work-days. The "good guys vs. the bad guys" meme is a myth. There are no "good" gangs, whether they wear leathers and build awesome scooters, or wear badges that make them look like the "good guys." Combining the two kinds of gangs is the perfect fit for the most violent among them. Hero-cops by day, racist, misogynist, steroid-raging thugs by night. Except it doesn't work that way; they're always racist, misogynist, steroid-raging thugs, it's just that they have to have some "legal" rationale to ply their violent tendencies on the public when on the job. Otherwise, they're still the same people. Most of the thug-cops out there are perfectly fine with only having their time on the clock to abuse and violate people. The guys who join that MC need a little more time to feed their hunger for victims, but they're all the same type of people if they've got a thirst for blood, whether or not they actually join an MC or other outside kind of outlet for their aggression.

It's time to wake up to reality. As a vocation, being a cop no longer entitles one to respect simply on the basis of their job. I'm not saying that there aren't good cops out there, I'm saying that you should never assume that the one that pulls you over, or comes to your home to take a burglary report, or asks nicely if you mind if they search your vehicle before you take off with "just a warning" fits the profile of Officer Friendly that most of us grew up believing was the norm for public servants in uniform. Don't trust them until you drive or walk away from a contact without having been violated somehow. And don't trust 'em the next time just because you walked away from that contact. You never know whether a cop is "good" or "bad" until the contact is over and you put distance between yourself and them. If you want to thank them for their professionalism in those instances, that's up to you, but remember, chances are that they have witnessed their co-workers working outside the limitations of their authority in one respect or another, and kept quiet about it. Just because they're nice to you doesn't mean they don't carry that gang-like code of silence with them throughout their careers.

To the cops who cringe at what I'm saying here because you are or were good cops, sorry, but if cops were known for testifying and/or ratting out other cops who abuse citizens, there would be much fewer "regular" ol' citizens out here thinking like I do. It is up to you to fix the public perceptions of cops by not conforming to what those perceptions are, and that's done between you and your fellow cops, not between you and me or people like me who exercise the caution that your militarization over the last couple or three decades have caused to be prudent among thinking and awake Americans.

Blues
 
I'm from Chicago, so trusting the police is off the table.

I try to obey relevant law to avoid any contact with them.

When contact with police is unavoidable, I treat them like any other strangers of unknown motivation and character. I'm polite but not friendly.

They look out for their own interests. I do likewise.
 
There is also a big difference between an "MC" and a Riders' Club. I seriously doubt they have, or are a part of an "MC". That fact does not change the validity of the OP. It is wise not to blindly trust law enforcement and the older I get, the less I trust them or any other government agency of any kind.
 
There is also a difference between an MC and a 1%'er MC. But, if you have the opportunity to know a 1%'er you will find they are human too. The biggest difference between them and average Joe Citizen and average Joe MC guy is that freedom and respect are much higher on their priority list and they defend both passionately. They believe in give respect, get respect.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk
 
There is also a big difference between an "MC" and a Riders' Club. I seriously doubt they have, or are a part of an "MC". That fact does not change the validity of the OP. It is wise not to blindly trust law enforcement and the older I get, the less I trust them or any other government agency of any kind.

They don't consider themselves a "riders' club." It's a men's only MC according to their own description, which is why I mentioned "misogynist" earlier in the thread. There's lots of women cops, yet they aren't allowed in the cop MC, so they're a pretty typical MC at least in that regard as far as I can surmise.

There's video of the incident that the OP mentioned, and tons of news stories about them too, most of it having to do with that incident, but some of it having to do with the controversy over the tenuous relationship between the MC and the agencies they work for. The coverage about the OP incident has been being covered since April of this year in the Link Removed, including from the early investigation of the beat-down up to early Oct. when (only misdemeanor) charges were filed against one of the thugs involved in the incident. This excerpt from one of several Courier articles on the incident might explain why a guy who was beat down by at least three members of the MC only resulted in one of them having misdemeanor charges filed against him:

A subsequent Link Removed investigation into the fight alleged that then-Prescott Valley Police Chief Bill Fessler - "Tarzan" - and former Partners Against Narcotics Trafficking Sgt. Bill Suttle - "Mongo" - opted not to provide details to police that could have aided in their investigation.
So from the Chief on down, the MC had the cop-shop in their control. I'm surprised even a misdemeanor charge was brought, but whatever, it's difficult to tell which gang is committing more crimes, the cops or the MC. But then again, it's just as hard to tell where the cops end and the MC begins. At least this time last year, they closed ranks amongst and between each other.

Maybe they don't do murder for hire, or extortion schemes, or sell drugs or whatever, but the Iron Brotherhood is a gang, just like the cop-shops who tolerate their infiltration into the ranks are, which BTW, the club has chapters from the West Coast to the East Coast, down to the Gulf Coast and most states in between.

From the President on down in law enforcement, conservatives and constitutionalists, Christians and Tea Partiers are now routinely referred to as "domestic terrorists" and the like. With that in mind, I'm perfectly comfortable with referring a cop MC as an MC, with all of the negative connotations that go along with that designation. In this case, I think it's much, much closer to being accurate than any of the labels LE puts on conservatives, and personally, I think it's much more accurate than the Iron Brotherhood being referred to as a "riders' club." YMMV.

Blues
 
Not all MC's are gangs, the Iron Brotherhood is specifically a Law Enforcement MC. Their's bad seeds everywhere. I wouldn't over think it. Do you really think cops aren't making issues disappear for friends and family club or no club?
 
Not all MC's are gangs, the Iron Brotherhood is specifically a Law Enforcement MC.

Have you read anything that I linked to? Watched the video of the beat-down that the controversy in Prescott, AZ is all about? The Iron Brotherhood is hardly a law enforcement group, it's a lawless group. The Chapter Prez was the Chief of Police! He resigned in disgrace to avoid being prosecuted for obstructing an internal investigation of the beat-down his chapter "brothers" meted out.

Their's bad seeds everywhere.

I've yet to find any in the Christian MCs around here. There are MCs that are just social kinds of associations, but the Iron Brotherhood ain't one of 'em.

I wouldn't over think it.

Well, at least thinking a little about it before you post would be prudent.

I haven't "over" thought it, I have investigated the incident mentioned in the OP and found documented facts about it.

Do you really think cops aren't making issues disappear for friends and family club or no club?

In this case, their friends and family are the club, and yeah, the club attempts to make issues disappear for their brothers, just like they tried in Prescott, but didn't quite get all the way away with because of fairly decent reporting and public pressure. They cover for each other in their private lives just like cops do on the job, because they all are cops and have a direct "in" to upper management because upper management are all cops/club members too. They can be armed almost anywhere in the country at any time because they are cops. They will get a pass in most jurisdictions for speeding and driving recklessly because they are cops. The club is simply an extension of the gang mentality that permeates cop-shops around the country these days, and the club is all around the country as well. (That list is incomplete as it doesn't show any chapters in AZ, and the incident we are discussing was perpetrated by a group of AZ chapter members. No tellin' how many other chapters are missing from that map. Also, caution, heavy-metal, head-banger music is on auto-play throughout their website. How appropriate, huh?)

Blues
 
You take any demographic, about 10% of them will make that demographic look bad. They will be obnoxious, they will be corrupt, they will be nefarious. This isn't to say that the other 90% aren't upstanding members making their demographic look good.

I would love to find what the real percentage of good, caring, cops is vs bad ones..... my 50 yrs of experience with them tells me the percentage is WAY higher than 10%.

I have half a dozen cousin/uncle cops - and if I am honest with myself, 90% are part of the 10% - ya, they too belong to the tough cop MC clubs.

My local township police department has ONE good cop. The rest, including the barney fife chief, are so crooked and mean to humans that it is an embarrassment!

I am afraid I would put the bad cop percentage closer to 60-80%
 

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