Mixed Bag - Self Defense Shooting But Arrested On Gun Charges.....

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ezkl2230

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He shot and killed someone in self defense. Security video proved it was a righteous shoot. Problem is, he is a convicted felon and wasn't supposed to have a firearm in the first place!

"The self-defense ruling didn't stop police from arresting Davis for gun offenses, however, including carrying a concealed weapon, felony firearms and being a felon in possession of a weapon."

Grand Rapids chicken restaurant's video cameras show 'justifiable' homicide by convicted felon | MLive.com
 
He had already served time on charges related to another death. Convicted felons are not allowed to posses a gun. Dem's da breaks.
 
My .02 cents: If you have served your time (including any probation or parole) then you should once again have the rights of the rest of us. If you are a felon who is too dangerous to trust with a gun, then you should not be out on the street. Besides, as long as the government is in charge of deciding who is and is not a felonious criminal, then I say err on the side of liberty. After all, the government considers most of us on this forum potential/probable domestic terrorists.
 
Convicted felon. Has a firearm. Frequents a location that ends up being somewhere he, most likely, should never have been. And I should give him a break or feel sorry for his "mixed bag"? No way.
 
This is a case of knowing the rules going in and being in the wrong place at the wrong time, good shooting, bad choice by a man who should have not been armed. Where were the police protecting the people, 15-20 minutes away.
 
This is a case of knowing the rules going in and being in the wrong place at the wrong time, good shooting, bad choice by a man who should have not been armed. Where were the police protecting the people, 15-20 minutes away.

In Grand Rapids, the average response time to a 911 call is 20+ minutes per the Crime Prevention Office of the GRPD. And some know-nothing contractor is still suggesting that we cut another 29 officers from the force!
 
My .02 cents: If you have served your time (including any probation or parole) then you should once again have the rights of the rest of us. If you are a felon who is too dangerous to trust with a gun, then you should not be out on the street. Besides, as long as the government is in charge of deciding who is and is not a felonious criminal, then I say err on the side of liberty. After all, the government considers most of us on this forum potential/probable domestic terrorists.

I disagree, particularly in this case. This man's previous felony convictions for crimes that were attended by lethal violence means he has legitimately lost the right to bear arms in our society. Yes, he did his time (some of it, anyway), and some of his personal liberties were restored, as should often be the case (though, in my opinion, I think we turn far too many violent people loose far too soon). His previous gang activity, parole violations, etc., make me suspect there's much more behind this story also. Your last statement with regard to whom the government might consider a likely terrorist is based on what evidence?
 
everyone should have the right to defend themselves against unlawful attack- even this tried and convicted criminal should have the right to defend himself against another criminal imo many folks are denied permits for ridiculous things like bogus charges and petty bs which doesn't even have anyting to do with violence but this guy had a violent past even still he should have the right to defend himself against another thug the only thing he should be charged with if anyting is unlawful carry of a firearm but it's use imo was valid regardless of his criminal past
 
everyone should have the right to defend themselves against unlawful attack- even this tried and convicted criminal should have the right to defend himself against another criminal imo many folks are denied permits for ridiculous things like bogus charges and petty bs which doesn't even have anyting to do with violence but this guy had a violent past even still he should have the right to defend himself against another thug the only thing he should be charged with if anyting is unlawful carry of a firearm but it's use imo was valid regardless of his criminal past

He did have the right to defend himself. There is no mention of his being charged with assault or manslaughter or murder in this case. He just does not have the right to be in possession of a firearm, which he obviously had, prior to this incident. As a parolee and convicted felon, that clearly makes him in violation of parole and the law, and considering his activities and past convictions, arresting and charging him with the violations they did was absolutely the right course of action. There is no just society, nor has there ever been a just society, where you cannot be deprived of certain liberties after due process. His liberties were not taken from him on a whim or arbitrarily. He previously engaged in conduct that was both harmful and deadly to society around him. Convicted and sent to prison. I don't have a problem at all with not restoring all previous liberties to him just because he did some time, particularly given the nature of the previous convictions. I don't think the limitations placed on convicted felons are out of line. Our criminal justice system is not perfect. But I would much rather deal with our justice system, over any possible issue imaginable, than any other justice system anywhere else in the world.
 
This guy knew he was not allowed to own a gun. Do you think he bought it legally? Ummmm, no; he would have had to purchase it illegally. Prison did not reform this person, and now back to the pokey he goes. There are other ways to defend yourself that this guy decided not to use. He made the conscious decision to continue being against the laws of the land. Just because his shooting was justified, doesn't mean he was justified to have something to shoot with.

My question is why are we not up in arms at how easy it is to illegally get a gun (not enforcing the laws of the land well), and how difficult it is to follow the law to get a gun and be using it correctly (creating too many stupid laws that don't reduce crime)?
 
This guy knew he was not allowed to own a gun. Do you think he bought it legally? Ummmm, no; he would have had to purchase it illegally. Prison did not reform this person, and now back to the pokey he goes. There are other ways to defend yourself that this guy decided not to use. He made the conscious decision to continue being against the laws of the land. Just because his shooting was justified, doesn't mean he was justified to have something to shoot with.

My question is why are we not up in arms at how easy it is to illegally get a gun (not enforcing the laws of the land well), and how difficult it is to follow the law to get a gun and be using it correctly (creating too many stupid laws that don't reduce crime)?

So someone approaches you and threatens deadly force with a gun, and you draw your "other way of defending yourself" which is...? What? A stick? A slingshot? A sharply worded forum post?

Not quite following there. Was he just supposed to lay down and die?
 
He might have served his time but if he had a violent offense felony conviction and he killed someone in the comission of another crime I don't think you'd want to consider giving him his rights back. Besides, part of the punishment is losing the right to own or posess a firearm it's not something they just decided to do to further punish him. Besides, he apparently didn't give a rat's ass about the law anyway because he had a gun.
 
So someone approaches you and threatens deadly force with a gun, and you draw your "other way of defending yourself" which is...? What? A stick? A slingshot? A sharply worded forum post?

Not quite following there. Was he just supposed to lay down and die?

With that mentality, you sound like the type that carries his firearm in the Post Office, in courthouses, and federal buildings. I'm sorry, I was taught to upheld and respect the law. My point, and I'll spell it out since it was missed, was that this guy knowingly and intentionally keeps breaking the law. So, yes, his arse should be sent back to jail. That was it, my only point.

The rights we have are for LAW-ABIDING citizens. Those who break the law, lose those rights. So, IMO, even if his use of force was justified, the fact that he broke the law to do it, means his arse is back in jail.

We need to keep reminding people of the fact that OUR rights to keep and bear arms are for the law-abiding citizens and not the criminals. I have absolutely no sympathy for a repeat criminal getting his butt sent back to prison because he keeps breaking the law. Nor do I have sympathy for one that keeps putting himself in dangerous situations (known gang area in this place) with full knowledge that things in this area could be and most probably will be dangerous and he chooses to carry illegally (because he lost his rights by being stupid in the first place).

As to your question: So someone approaches you and threatens deadly force with a gun, and you draw your "other way of defending yourself" which is...? What? A stick? A slingshot? A sharply worded forum post?
I'm not a criminal, I'm not a felon, I have not lost my rights, I would not place myself in known gangland areas, I do not look for trouble, I try to avoid trouble, I do not carry illegally, I carry legally, I would have shot him, and the police seeing how justified it was from this video and knowing I carry legally would have sent me on my way. See the difference? He is a felon, He has lost his rights, he is not allowed to carry a firearm, he chose to do so, he put himself in dangerous areas, he got himself wrapped up in the same lifestyle that put him and prison, and umm, he's going back. Yup no sympathy from me!
As to the sarcasm of your question: mace, taser, stun gun... (if they are allowable to a felon, IDK, I'm not a felon and don't need to look those things up) could have been used at point blank range in this situation.... however, a sharply worded post to the other gunman might have been funny to watch on the video. :smile:
 
there is no such thing as "legitamately losing your rights. " All rights are inalienable, or else they are PRIVLEGES. Make up your mind what you want YOUR rights to be. We derive rights by being able/willing to harm/kill those who would usurp those rights. If a rabbit COULD develope a new way to break a hawk's neck, when that hawk was trying to kill said rabbit, we'd all agree that he had the "right" to do so. Well, we have developed better ways to "throw rocks". Every one of you, and your mothers, have committed felonies. If you kissed a girl under the age of 18, that was a felony. You gonna claim that minors CAN'T be charged/convicted of felonies? :-) Oral sex between spouses, until fairly recently, was a felony in at least one state.
 
Convicted felon. Has a firearm. Frequents a location that ends up being somewhere he, most likely, should never have been. And I should give him a break or feel sorry for his "mixed bag"? No way.

Really? He commits some crimes, and suddenly he is no longer allowed to go to a chicken restaurant?
 
I disagree, particularly in this case. This man's previous felony convictions for crimes that were attended by lethal violence means he has legitimately lost the right to bear arms in our society. Yes, he did his time (some of it, anyway), and some of his personal liberties were restored, as should often be the case (though, in my opinion, I think we turn far too many violent people loose far too soon). His previous gang activity, parole violations, etc., make me suspect there's much more behind this story also. Your last statement with regard to whom the government might consider a likely terrorist is based on what evidence?

Well, if you research the guy, none of his convictions were for violent actions committed by him, mostly just drug stuff. The weapons conviction stems from possession. As for my final statement, please peruse:

Activist Post: 10 Ridiculous Things That Make You a Terror Suspect

We Are All Terrorists | American Free Press
 
Well, if you research the guy, none of his convictions were for violent actions committed by him, mostly just drug stuff. The weapons conviction stems from possession. As for my final statement, please peruse:

Activist Post: 10 Ridiculous Things That Make You a Terror Suspect

We Are All Terrorists | American Free Press

1. Davis was very clearly convicted of gang-related turf and drug crimes that were in fact attended by violence (i.e. murder), at least according to the news article.

2. Followed your link to the START site and read the article. Did not draw the conclusions you have. Below is a rebuttal to your assertions posted on the same site:

Editor’s Note: Hot Spots of Terrorism
and Other Crimes in the United States, 1970 to 2008
(July 5, 2012) -- Current articles and postings on the Internet have mischaracterized the conclusions of the START report “Hot Spots of Terrorism and Other Crimes in the United States, 1970 to 2008,” which was released in January. To be clear, the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism (START) does not classify individuals as terrorists or extremists based on ideological perspectives. START and the Global Terrorism Database, on which the Report is based, defines terrorism and terrorist attacks as "the threatened or actual use of illegal force and violence by a non-state actor to attain a political, economic, religious, or social goal through fear, coercion, or intimidation.”
The report is based on the key premise that the groups and individuals analyzed have actually carried out or attempted to carry out violent attacks in the United States for any political, social, religious, or economic goal. This is what qualifies them as terrorists, not their ideological orientation.
The report then classified the violent perpetrators into ideological categories, including extreme left-wing, extreme right-wing, religious, ethnonationalist/separatist, and single issue. The descriptions of these categories in the report do not suggest that an individual or group with one or more of these characteristics is likely to be a terrorist.
Below is a detailed response from the report’s author, Gary LaFree, director of START.
First, at no point has any START study defined persons "suspicious of centralized federal authority" and "reverent of individual liberty" as terrorists. Instead, we assigned ideological classifications only to groups that have already carried out completed or attempted terrorist attacks. This report is based on START's Global Terrorism Database which defines terrorism as "the threatened or actual use of illegal force and violence by a non-state actor to attain a political, economic, religious, or social goal through fear, coercion, or intimidation." The GTD includes information from unclassified sources (mainly news media) on nearly 100,000 terrorist attacks that occurred worldwide since 1970. Whenever possible, the GTD includes information on the perpetrators of these attacks, primarily groups or organizations.
Last year, START completed a project called Profiles of Perpetrators of Terrorism in the United States (PPT-US) that involved data collection on the organizations that have carried out violent attacks in the United States, based on the GTD definition of terrorism. Additional information on PPT-US can be found here: Link Removed. Part of the PPT-US data collection project involved classifying the 'dominant ideology' of these organizations (not individuals). The categories for 'dominant ideology' are:
• Extreme Right-Wing
• Extreme Left-Wing

Religious
• Ethnonationalist/Separatist
• Single Issue
Full definitions for these can be found in the PPT-US codebook, available on the 'Data and Analysis' tab of the PPT-US Dataverse page at Profiles of Perpetrators of Terrorism in the United States (PPT-US) - START Terrorism Data Archive Dataverse - IQSS Dataverse Network. Again, it is critical to remember that these definitions are applied to organizations already identified as perpetrators of terrorist violence in the GTD. They are in no way used to define 'terrorists' themselves, either groups or individuals. This mischaracterization of our work is a logical fallacy on par with stating that because some apples are red, all things red must be apples.
Second, the Hot Spots Report has been criticized by Internet sources for excluding terrorism cases from 1993. When we began the Global Terrorism Database in 2002, we began with a prior unclassified data source that was missing 1993 data. We have never been able to completely restore these data. Hence, the Hot Spots Report is in fact missing 1993 data.
Because the main purpose of the report was to conduct a county-level analysis of terrorism in the United States, we felt it best to leave out incomplete information—which was the case for the 1993 data. We should have made this clear in the report and plan to do so in any future publications. However, it is also true that the report is missing only one year in a 39-year series—less than 3 percent of the total. Other 1970-2008 attacks identified by some Internet sources as missing from the report, including a 1994 van shooting, the 1997 Empire State Building shooting, and the 2002 El Al shooting are in fact included in the GTD and in the report. We should also point out that at the time we did the analysis for the Hot Spots Report, the most recent GTD data that were available ended in 2008. This means that the report excludes several high profile attacks that occurred after 2008, including the 2009 Fort Hood attack and the 2009 Arkansas shooting. The first two attacks are already in the version of the GTD on our website and the last one was added to the GTD last fall, and is slated to be included in our upcoming release of the data through 2011.
Finally, it is important to note that because the analysis in our report relied on ideology data from PPT-US, a group-level dataset, attacks are linked to ideologies when a specific group is attributed responsibility for an attack. This means that Tables 1-7 in our report are based only on those cases where we are reasonably certain of the group or organization responsible for the attack. Attacks by unaffiliated individuals are less likely to be included in this particular analysis, simply as a consequence of the ideology data available at the time the report was written. To be clear, this is not due in any way to an inclination to define these attacks as ‘not terrorism.’ In addition, because the focus of this report is on concentrations of terrorism, we constructed these tables in such a way that all attacks that are not part of "hot spots" are excluded. Although some readers incorrectly interpret these tables as reporting no other terrorism for those particular time periods/locations/ideology combinations, this is certainly not the case. For a full explanation of the GTD’s data collection methodology and inclusion criteria, users are welcome to visit the START website: Link Removed.
 

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