Men are not men.


TekGreg

New member
When I'm on the road, I have a tendency to scan the radio for interesting topics. One I heard yesterday happened to coincide with a PM I was having with a member here on the forum who asked, "...what happened to the days when men were men?" The radio host was discussing the fact that everyone these days was so worried about how everything they did somehow "offended" someone. Everything had to be so PC that no one was willing to stand up for their principals. It also seemed that so many women were learning to do things for themselves because they were absent husbands and their children were absent fathers and growing up not knowing what a father figure was or even what a man was supposed to be good for. Also the fact that a man can't be trusted to keep his word anymore - it used to be that a man's word was his bond, regardless of any contract he signed or didn't.

Then the callers started calling in: One women from Wisconsin had a daughter who had three separate boyfriends, ALL of who had no idea how to change a tire and allowed her to do it in the snow on the side of the road. The caller also had her own power tools and none of these geniuses knew what they were called, much less how to use them.

So my question is partially what has happened to the "American Male," but moreso, how do we fix it? Also, don't get me wrong, I myself am a "Metrosexual," an all-around male that is fully hetero, shoots, hunts, loves cars, construction and getting dirty, but I can also cook, sew, clean, discuss books, art, likes to read and go antiquing. I think this makes me a better all-around survivalist and it makes me a damnsight more attractive to women, but I would never advocate removing the manly side from any boy or man. The radio announcer asked if we needed to start adding "Man Class" to the curriculum in High School since things like Auto, Metal and Wood shop had all been cut due to budgets. Women seem to have plenty of support for being women...what do you think?

What is the answer? Humor appreciated, but this is a serious question.

What do you think the answer is?
 

TKA

New member
well........sit back and I'll let you in on my dementia lol The men of today,,,speaking mostly on the younger end, are to concerned with the video end of life, people are not teaching them work ethics like our moms and dads taught us.They are to interested in the party,and not what happens after.Most of the 20 to 30 year olds that I know here in my state, are to busy getting high and making more little degenerates like themselves.They do not like to work, they do not want to work. My dad taught me to save, change tires and tune up my car lol As well as learning a trade that would take my family through life. These young men of today have no clue.But just as we take the time to learn firearm saftey,and what to do in situations that require us to protect our homes and family, we need to remember to teach our young men and woman the values and morals that we ourselves were taught. just saying lol
 

Phillip Gain

New member
When I'm on the road, I have a tendency to scan the radio for interesting topics. One I heard yesterday happened to coincide with a PM I was having with a member here on the forum who asked, "...what happened to the days when men were men?" The radio host was discussing the fact that everyone these days was so worried about how everything they did somehow "offended" someone. Everything had to be so PC that no one was willing to stand up for their principals. It also seemed that so many women were learning to do things for themselves because they were absent husbands and their children were absent fathers and growing up not knowing what a father figure was or even what a man was supposed to be good for. Also the fact that a man can't be trusted to keep his word anymore - it used to be that a man's word was his bond, regardless of any contract he signed or didn't.

Then the callers started calling in: One women from Wisconsin had a daughter who had three separate boyfriends, ALL of who had no idea how to change a tire and allowed her to do it in the snow on the side of the road. The caller also had her own power tools and none of these geniuses knew what they were called, much less how to use them.

So my question is partially what has happened to the "American Male," but moreso, how do we fix it? Also, don't get me wrong, I myself am a "Metrosexual," an all-around male that is fully hetero, shoots, hunts, loves cars, construction and getting dirty, but I can also cook, sew, clean, discuss books, art, likes to read and go antiquing. I think this makes me a better all-around survivalist and it makes me a damnsight more attractive to women, but I would never advocate removing the manly side from any boy or man. The radio announcer asked if we needed to start adding "Man Class" to the curriculum in High School since things like Auto, Metal and Wood shop had all been cut due to budgets. Women seem to have plenty of support for being women...what do you think?

What is the answer? Humor appreciated, but this is a serious question.

What do you think the answer is?

There is a movement afoot in American society to neuter the men. Symbolically at least. A large part of this is driven by consumer advertising. Women are a very big market for advertisers, who feel that the easiest way to appeal to them is with "smart career woman / dumb ape husband" ads. As with most things, it works by appealing to the least common denominator.

Additionally, the male persona has come to be associated with war, physical violence, sexual violence, etc. Sadly, this is a very real link. Men, by far, perpetrate much more violence than women.

The movement towards kinder, gentler, maleness in the US began in the 1960s and 1970s as part of the fringe "hippie / make love not war" movement. It went mainstream in the 1980s in the form of the SNAG - sensitive new age guy. This period also marked the beginning of the term "sexual harassment" and the advent of workplace sensitivity training, on and on.

This all sort of led into the "political correctness" movement. The PC movement was a really good idea at the beginning. "Let's all try to be nicer to each other, not use offensive language, and keep the workplace free of sexual drama." But like so many good ideas, it just went TOO FAR.

Now as for yourself - I'd personally not consider you a Metrosexual. You would be more of a Renaissance Guy. Metros generally are not into shooting, hunting, getting dirty, etc. I'm much the same way. Learned a lot from Dad, Mom, the US Army, and college life on how to be self-sufficient and well-rounded. I will pass along those same core values to my own son.

Which brings me to your big question, "How do we fix it?" As men, we start by acting right and BEING men. When we see a man being un-manly, we call him out on it. Shame him, and try to teach him better. (If my daughter's boyfriend didn't know how to change a tire, I'd ridicule him mercilessly and offer to show him how.)

Most importantly, we must raise our sons to be men. And we must raise our daughters to not settle for someone who doesn't act like a man should. (Note...this does NOT mean raising your daughter to be dependent on a man. I mean simply to raise her to set her standards high.)
 

Black Dragon

New member
I may have heard the same show that you did but could only get a few minutes here and there to listen to it.

I believe that some of this started a long time ago and we are just starting to see the effects of it all.
Some of it has to do with women wanting us to constantly be in touch with our feeling and wanting us to be more sensitive. Well, this is the result of men becoming more sensitive.
Note: I'm not blaming women totally for this. It's the men's fault because they don't stand their ground and be true to their nature. Unfortunately some men go over the top and act like Neanderthals instead of being stable, solid men.


Also, don't get me wrong, I myself am a "Metrosexual," an all-around male that is fully hetero, shoots, hunts, loves cars, construction and getting dirty, but I can also cook, sew, clean, discuss books, art, likes to read and go antiquing.

Just wanted to clear this up a little. Based on your definition you are not a Metrosexual. A metrosexual goes to the spa, gets his nails done, does the whole "going shopping" thing, etc.
What you described is actually a Renaissance man: a man whose expertise spans a significant number of different subject areas.
 

Providence Ranch

New member
I strongly encourage that you read a book called Wild at Heart, by John Eldredge. Many of the answers to the question of what has happened to the real men in our society are very clearly explained, and what we remaining men can do about it.
 

tuts40

New member
PC'ness has gotton us to the point where the hetero white male is the only unprotected "class". No special provisions, no particular legislations for, no points for employer when hired, no line cutting privileges for the heterosexual white male. Women, minorities, disabled, illegal's, gay's all get some special considerations. Not the hetero white male. So man-up and be proud that once again, anything you've done you've done without handouts.
 

Black Dragon

New member
Wild at Heart is an decent book. I felt that Wild at Heart, even thought it was supposed to be geared toward men, was trying to explain to women how men behaved. So for me it had an odd tone.

I though Maximized Manhood by Edwin Louis Cole was much better on the subject. It's geared directly to men and doesn't soften the edges.

I used both books in my church small groups and the men preferred Maximized Manhood.
 

localgirl

New member
I could ramble on for hours about this topic, but it all boils down to a very simple answer: if you want to see "men" in the world, you have to raise them.

Me, I prefer the Renaissance Man. It's a point of pride that I can take care of any man-things in my life, but it would also be nice to have someone want to do it for me.
 

Dennis1209

New member
It all started with the intervention of the Federal Government in the public school system. You wouldn't believe some of the crap some public schools have adopted. Now these public indoctrinated kids have been entering the government and private sectors. When I was a kid (milk was delivered to your home), we played outside all day and got into the occasional rumble. These days, most kids are in front of the TV, XYZ Box, computer most the time and have become sissified. IMO...
 

TekGreg

New member
Just wanted to clear this up a little. Based on your definition you are not a Metrosexual. A metrosexual goes to the spa, gets his nails done, does the whole "going shopping" thing, etc.
What you described is actually a Renaissance man: a man whose expertise spans a significant number of different subject areas.

pafindr, I guess I'll have to agree with you there. Given three hours and only one thing to do, I would choose to send jacketed rounds downrange at tactical targets rather than visiting a spa or having my nails done. I guess I'll have to start using Renaissance Man - that sounds so classy!

Seriously, though, this is a really good discussion. Actual literary references backing up the statements being made is always a good thing. Many times I've used the analogy of the pendulum swinging too far towards feminism, because I also feel like women should be empowered to do what they want to, but I don't see why organizations like N.O.W. feel like that means that the have to emasculate every single man on Earth.

I know that industrialization has removed the need for the individual man as hunter and protector in the family. We are no longer necessary for hunting meat for the table and killing predators that try to kill the rest of the family. Men as a whole have replaced these responsibilities vicariously with organized sports or video games as an outlet of their natural aggressions. But then, speaking of that pendulum, any man that did not choose to accept these socially acceptable outlets is made to feel like an "animal" or a "sociopath" because he won't accept wholesale castration, sometimes even by other men who have bought into the "safe society" lie. Some of my favorite reading is The Myth of Male Power by Warren Farrell, Ph.D. who, believe it or not, used to be the vice-president of the National Organization for Women (N.O.W.), until he saw the truth. The book has tons of facts and figures that are helpful when talking to those you wish to educate.
 

dcselby1

Denny
So my question is partially what has happened to the "American Male," but moreso, how do we fix it? Also, don't get me wrong, I myself am a "Metrosexual," an all-around male that is fully hetero, shoots, hunts, loves cars, construction and getting dirty, but I can also cook, sew, clean, discuss books, art, likes to read and go antiquing. I think this makes me a better all-around survivalist and it makes me a damnsight more attractive to women, but I would never advocate removing the manly side from any boy or man. The radio announcer asked if we needed to start adding "Man Class" to the curriculum in High School since things like Auto, Metal and Wood shop had all been cut due to budgets. Women seem to have plenty of support for being women...what do you think?

What is the answer? Humor appreciated, but this is a serious question.

What do you think the answer is?
This is a question I've had for years. I've always felt that part of the problem was single-parent families. My father went to jail when I was four and I was raised, with my sister, in the 1950's with no father figure. Believe it or not, I really think one of my "father figures" was Jackie Gleason in "The Honeymooners." Guess you took what you could get. ANYWAY, I read the following article last month that, I feel, answered a big part of the question you asked:
Ten Ways Progressive Policies Harm Society's Moral Character
By Dennis Prager
7/19/2011
While liberals are certain about the moral superiority of liberal policies, the truth is that those policies actually diminish a society's moral character. Many individual liberals are fine people, but the policies they advocate tend to make a people worse. Here are 10 reasons:
1. The bigger the government, the less the citizens do for one another. If the state will take care of me and my neighbors, why should I? This is why Western Europeans, people who have lived in welfare states far longer than Americans have, give less to charity and volunteer less time to others than do Americans of the same socioeconomic status.
The greatest description of American civilization was written in the early 19th century by the Frenchman Alexis de Tocqueville. One of the differences distinguishing Americans from Europeans that he most marveled at was how much Americans -- through myriad associations -- took care of one another. Until President Franklin Roosevelt began the seemingly inexorable movement of America toward the European welfare state -- vastly expanded later by other Democratic presidents -- Americans took responsibility for one another and for themselves far more than they do today. Churches, Rotary Clubs, free-loan societies and other voluntary associations were ubiquitous. As the state grew, however, all these associations declined. In Western Europe, they have virtually all disappeared.
2. The welfare state, though often well intended, is nevertheless a Ponzi scheme. Conservatives have known this for generations. But now, any honest person must acknowledge it. The welfare state is predicated on collecting money from today's workers in order to pay for those who paid in before them. But today's workers don't have enough money to sustain the scheme, and there are too few of them to do so. As a result, virtually every welfare state in Europe, and many American states, like California, are going broke.
3. Citizens of liberal welfare states become increasingly narcissistic. The great preoccupations of vast numbers of Brits, Frenchmen, Germans and other Western Europeans are how much vacation time they will have and how early they can retire and be supported by the state.
4. The liberal welfare state makes people disdain work. Americans work considerably harder than Western Europeans, and contrary to liberal thought since Karl Marx, work builds character.
5. Nothing more guarantees the erosion of character than getting something for nothing. In the liberal welfare state, one develops an entitlement mentality -- another expression of narcissism. And the rhetoric of liberalism -- labeling each new entitlement a "right" -- reinforces this sense of entitlement.
6. The bigger the government, the more the corruption. As the famous truism goes, "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Of course, big businesses are also often corrupt. But they are eventually caught or go out of business. The government cannot go out of business. And unlike corrupt governments, corrupt businesses cannot print money and thereby devalue a nation's currency, and they cannot arrest you.
7. The welfare state corrupts family life. Even many Democrats have acknowledged the destructive consequences of the welfare state on the underclass. It has rendered vast numbers of males unnecessary to females, who have looked to the state to support them and their children (and the more children, the more state support) rather than to husbands. In effect, these women took the state as their husband.
8. The welfare state inhibits the maturation of its young citizens into responsible adults. As regards men specifically, I was raised, as were all generations of American men before me, to aspire to work hard in order to marry and support a wife and children. No more. One of the reasons many single women lament the prevalence of boy-men -- men who have not grown up -- is that the liberal state has told men they don't have to support anybody. They are free to remain boys for as long as they want.
And here is an example regarding both sexes. The loudest and most sustained applause I ever heard was that of college students responding to a speech by President Barack Obama informing them that they would now be covered by their parents' health insurance policies until age 26.
9. As a result of the left's sympathetic views of pacifism and because almost no welfare state can afford a strong military, European countries rely on America to fight the world's evils and even to defend them.
10. The leftist "weltanschauung" sees society's and the world's great battle as between rich and poor rather than between good and evil. Equality therefore trumps morality. This is what produces the morally confused liberal elites that can venerate a Cuban tyranny with its egalitarian society over a free and decent America that has greater inequality.
None of this matters to progressives. Against all this destructiveness, they will respond not with arguments to refute these consequences of the liberal welfare state, but by citing the terms "social justice" and "compassion," and by labeling their opponents "selfish" and worse.
If you want to feel good, liberalism is awesome. If you want to do good, it is largely awful.
 

CharlieK

New member
It all started with the intervention of the Federal Government in the public school system. You wouldn't believe some of the crap some public schools have adopted. Now these public indoctrinated kids have been entering the government and private sectors. When I was a kid (milk was delivered to your home), we played outside all day and got into the occasional rumble. These days, most kids are in front of the TV, XYZ Box, computer most the time and have become sissified. IMO...
Amen, brother. I know of a high school principal who said, in a meeting, that the purpose of public schools is NOT Education; the purpose of public schools is to promote social justice.
 

maybejim

Maybejim
Much of the problem is self fulfilling with the lack of a man in the family keeping the kids from benefiting from the ideal family structure, a father and a mother. It hurts both boys and girls.
 

AzBanks

New member
Just wanted to clear this up a little. Based on your definition you are not a Metrosexual. A metrosexual goes to the spa, gets his nails done, does the whole "going shopping" thing, etc.
What you described is actually a Renaissance man: a man whose expertise spans a significant number of different subject areas.

What's wrong with the whole "going shopping" thing??

She goes to the mall, I go to Cabela's or Bass Pro. I can spend more time and more money shopping than she can any day of the week. :)
 

Tucker's Mom

New member
I could ramble on for hours about this topic, but it all boils down to a very simple answer: if you want to see "men" in the world, you have to raise them. ....QUOTE]
I agree with you, raise them! You don't need another woman or women don't another man to raise a child when the child is already there...right values, right morals, integrity -- it is a better to raise a child alone than a child be raised in a dysfunctional home whose parents are always fighting and none have any integrity nor even respect for one another. At least you can instill your values on each of the child you are raising. At least teach him/her right from wrong. And to boot, how to be a leader of men.

Someone said to me today (must be an Aussie friend of mine...) If the global crisis continues at the present rate, by the end of this year only two banks will be left operational ..... the Blood Bank and the Sperm Bank! Before you know it, these two will merge, and the whole place will be full of bloody wankers.:sarcastic:
 

TekGreg

New member
Dcselby1, what a GREAT article! Thank you for posting it - I'm going to be thinking about this all day.
 

BC1

,
I remember my shop teacher, who was missing part of his index finger.

I think about my wife as a teenager. Her father had died and she changed her own tires and put in a starter. She was more boy than a lot of guys I knew. Horses, guns, dirt bikes, baseball... I knew she was the gal for me!

How about NYC where some men's idea of roughing it is getting their Italian loafers wet.

Political correctness is trying to convince someone it's possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
 

tuts40

New member
This is a question I've had for years. I've always felt that part of the problem was single-parent families. My father went to jail when I was four and I was raised, with my sister, in the 1950's with no father figure. Believe it or not, I really think one of my "father figures" was Jackie Gleason in "The Honeymooners." Guess you took what you could get. ANYWAY, I read the following article last month that, I feel, answered a big part of the question you asked:
Ten Ways Progressive Policies Harm Society's Moral Character
By Dennis Prager
7/19/2011
While liberals are certain about the moral superiority of liberal policies, the truth is that those policies actually diminish a society's moral character. Many individual liberals are fine people, but the policies they advocate tend to make a people worse. Here are 10 reasons:
1. The bigger the government, the less the citizens do for one another. If the state will take care of me and my neighbors, why should I? This is why Western Europeans, people who have lived in welfare states far longer than Americans have, give less to charity and volunteer less time to others than do Americans of the same socioeconomic status.
The greatest description of American civilization was written in the early 19th century by the Frenchman Alexis de Tocqueville. One of the differences distinguishing Americans from Europeans that he most marveled at was how much Americans -- through myriad associations -- took care of one another. Until President Franklin Roosevelt began the seemingly inexorable movement of America toward the European welfare state -- vastly expanded later by other Democratic presidents -- Americans took responsibility for one another and for themselves far more than they do today. Churches, Rotary Clubs, free-loan societies and other voluntary associations were ubiquitous. As the state grew, however, all these associations declined. In Western Europe, they have virtually all disappeared.
2. The welfare state, though often well intended, is nevertheless a Ponzi scheme. Conservatives have known this for generations. But now, any honest person must acknowledge it. The welfare state is predicated on collecting money from today's workers in order to pay for those who paid in before them. But today's workers don't have enough money to sustain the scheme, and there are too few of them to do so. As a result, virtually every welfare state in Europe, and many American states, like California, are going broke.
3. Citizens of liberal welfare states become increasingly narcissistic. The great preoccupations of vast numbers of Brits, Frenchmen, Germans and other Western Europeans are how much vacation time they will have and how early they can retire and be supported by the state.
4. The liberal welfare state makes people disdain work. Americans work considerably harder than Western Europeans, and contrary to liberal thought since Karl Marx, work builds character.
5. Nothing more guarantees the erosion of character than getting something for nothing. In the liberal welfare state, one develops an entitlement mentality -- another expression of narcissism. And the rhetoric of liberalism -- labeling each new entitlement a "right" -- reinforces this sense of entitlement.
6. The bigger the government, the more the corruption. As the famous truism goes, "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Of course, big businesses are also often corrupt. But they are eventually caught or go out of business. The government cannot go out of business. And unlike corrupt governments, corrupt businesses cannot print money and thereby devalue a nation's currency, and they cannot arrest you.
7. The welfare state corrupts family life. Even many Democrats have acknowledged the destructive consequences of the welfare state on the underclass. It has rendered vast numbers of males unnecessary to females, who have looked to the state to support them and their children (and the more children, the more state support) rather than to husbands. In effect, these women took the state as their husband.
8. The welfare state inhibits the maturation of its young citizens into responsible adults. As regards men specifically, I was raised, as were all generations of American men before me, to aspire to work hard in order to marry and support a wife and children. No more. One of the reasons many single women lament the prevalence of boy-men -- men who have not grown up -- is that the liberal state has told men they don't have to support anybody. They are free to remain boys for as long as they want.
And here is an example regarding both sexes. The loudest and most sustained applause I ever heard was that of college students responding to a speech by President Barack Obama informing them that they would now be covered by their parents' health insurance policies until age 26.
9. As a result of the left's sympathetic views of pacifism and because almost no welfare state can afford a strong military, European countries rely on America to fight the world's evils and even to defend them.
10. The leftist "weltanschauung" sees society's and the world's great battle as between rich and poor rather than between good and evil. Equality therefore trumps morality. This is what produces the morally confused liberal elites that can venerate a Cuban tyranny with its egalitarian society over a free and decent America that has greater inequality.
None of this matters to progressives. Against all this destructiveness, they will respond not with arguments to refute these consequences of the liberal welfare state, but by citing the terms "social justice" and "compassion," and by labeling their opponents "selfish" and worse.
If you want to feel good, liberalism is awesome. If you want to do good, it is largely awful.

Now THAT'S an answer!! +1
 

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