Marysville police officer charged with manslaughter

[NavyLCDR]

Link Removed

What do you think? Proper charge? Guilty or no? Is the loss of the child enough "sentence served"? I thought about posting this in Leo Encounters, but I think it is important here to illustrate the need for proper gun safety.

RCW 9A.32.070
Manslaughter in the second degree.

(1) A person is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree when, with criminal negligence, he or she causes the death of another person.

(2) Manslaughter in the second degree is a class B felony.

RCW 9a.20.021

1) b) For a class B felony, by confinement in a state correctional institution for a term of ten years, or by a fine in an amount fixed by the court of twenty thousand dollars, or by both such confinement and fine;

RCW 9A.08.010
General requirements of culpability.

(1) Kinds of Culpability Defined.

(a) INTENT. A person acts with intent or intentionally when he or she acts with the objective or purpose to accomplish a result which constitutes a crime.

(b) KNOWLEDGE. A person knows or acts knowingly or with knowledge when:
(i) he or she is aware of a fact, facts, or circumstances or result described by a statute defining an offense; or
(ii) he or she has information which would lead a reasonable person in the same situation to believe that facts exist which facts are described by a statute defining an offense.

(c) RECKLESSNESS. A person is reckless or acts recklessly when he or she knows of and disregards a substantial risk that a wrongful act may occur and his or her disregard of such substantial risk is a gross deviation from conduct that a reasonable person would exercise in the same situation.

(d) CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE. A person is criminally negligent or acts with criminal negligence when he or she fails to be aware of a substantial risk that a wrongful act may occur and his or her failure to be aware of such substantial risk constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that a reasonable person would exercise in the same situation.

(2) Substitutes for Criminal Negligence, Recklessness, and Knowledge. When a statute provides that criminal negligence suffices to establish an element of an offense, such element also is established if a person acts intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly. When recklessness suffices to establish an element, such element also is established if a person acts intentionally or knowingly. When acting knowingly suffices to establish an element, such element also is established if a person acts intentionally.

(3) Culpability as Determinant of Grade of Offense. When the grade or degree of an offense depends on whether the offense is committed intentionally, knowingly, recklessly, or with criminal negligence, its grade or degree shall be the lowest for which the determinative kind of culpability is established with respect to any material element of the offense.

(4) Requirement of Wilfulness Satisfied by Acting Knowingly. A requirement that an offense be committed willfully is satisfied if a person acts knowingly with respect to the material elements of the offense, unless a purpose to impose further requirements plainly appears.

 

[DLeeHarley]

I know rules are rules and Laws are Laws but do you think a Prison sentence is going to be worse than the hell that he's already going through? And that hell IS going to last his whole life long! Some people deserve a prison term because of the different situations but in this one my opinion is he is already serving a LIFE sentence! Just my opinion take it for what it's worth. God Bless his daughter.

 

[Phillip Gain]

One side note that I just HAVE to say something about. It's worth noting that the author of the article appears to have a limited knowledge of firearms. The article states, "the gun was fully loaded and the safety was not on," "Carlile did not remove the gun, activate the safety or lock the gun in the door compartment."

Since when does a .38 Special revolver have a safety? Or am I just not current on the latest and greatest .38 Special revolver designs?

But on to the question of whether criminal charges are warranted. It would seem clear that, by the letter of the law, they are. Certainly the father is responsible. But I struggle with the question of whether or not an adult should be held criminally liable in a case like this.

Consider a parallel example, but without a firearm: Let's say the family had a pool in the back yard. Despite being advised by Mom, Dad fails to lock the gate, thinking "I'm going to go for a swim in a bit, no need to lock it." This, in spite of the fact that one of his kids has a habit of trying to get into the pool when the gate is locked. And in a tragic turn of events...the one child pushes the other into the pool, causing the other child to drown. Would the father have been held criminally liable, and charged with manslaughter in this case as well?

 

[eagleeyes]

wow what the hell kind of parent leaves their child erm children at their ages in a van while they go to a meeting in the first place let alone with loaded gun out in the open with that many kids way too young to be left unattended in a car in the first place?????????????
if it been a civilian he'd probably get his children taken away for being so stupid and negligent even if the gun wasn't in the van.....this guy being a cop certainly should have known better imo
only a total idiot would have left a loaded gun in a vehicle with kids that age with no adult supervision
he should be arrested for endangering the lives of his own children as well anyone could have walked up to the van and coerced the kids to open the door and snatch some them kids for all he knows .........but to leave a gun in the van was just stupidity plain and simple
negligent and careless if it been a civilian concealed weapons permit carrier i bet the state would revoke his license immediately

 

[eagleeyes]

yes navy lcdr i think what you highlighted 'criminal negligence' is what he should be charged with and nothing less!

 

[radiomathteacher]

Since when does a .38 Special revolver have a safety? Or am I just not current on the latest and greatest .38 Special revolver designs?

This might be one example of a revolver with a safety mechanism.

Link Removed

 

[S&W645]

....

Consider a parallel example, but without a firearm: Let's say the family had a pool in the back yard. Despite being advised by Mom, Dad fails to lock the gate, thinking "I'm going to go for a swim in a bit, no need to lock it." This, in spite of the fact that one of his kids has a habit of trying to get into the pool when the gate is locked. And in a tragic turn of events...the one child pushes the other into the pool, causing the other child to drown. Would the father have been held criminally liable, and charged with manslaughter in this case as well?

In Florida, yes.

As far as .38 revolvers and safeties, yes.

Taurus Security System (TSS)rs
Taurus family of semi-auto pistols all feature the Taurus Security System, which provides instant-ready defense with built-in ability to secure your pistol and make it inoperable at the turn of a key. When the Security System is engaged, the pistol cannot be fired or cocked and the gun's manual safety cannot be disengaged. As with our revolver Security System, the device is part of the firearm and cannot be lost, and the same special Security Key works for both the revolver and pistol Systems (two keys come with each gun).

 

[BluesStringer]

I had the same observation about the safety on a .38 revolver. Seemed like the author was trying to make it sound like they knew what they were talking about, as if even if it did have a safety, engaging it and leaving four kids under 6 years old alone with it would (or should) ameliorate his culpability. But the author's lack of knowledge is not really the issue....

I have to say yeah, the charge is justified and right at the appropriate level I think. The only question I have is why Mom gets a pass. True, it wasn't her gun, but she knew it was there, mentioned it, and still left the vehicle with Dad. She's still supposed to be a responsible adult. And technically, the gun is hers. Community property and all that good stuff.

I know I sound cold-hearted, but I don't think I am being so. My perception is that because the guy is a cop, he's automatically viewed by many as one of the "good guys." That may or may not be true, but it has no bearing as far as I'm concerned on whether or not his actions comport with the elements of the crime that NavyLCDR posted. Cop or non-uniformed citizen, good-guy or not so much, his actions match perfectly with the code. So do Mom's as far as I'm concerned, but the locals already made their decision in that regard, so it's a non-issue for the purposes of this thread.

I'm all for applying the law equally no matter who the defendant might be, but it's hard to imagine that a court or Chief of Police or mayor wouldn't want to put the message out there that cops especially must practice the highest standards of gun safety. Prosecuting him may get that message to other careless cops, and someone's life might just be spared because of it.

Blues

 

[eagleeyes]

in florida if you have a pool you must have at least a four foot fence around it it's the law here

 

[The_Outlaw]

wow what the hell kind of parent leaves their child erm children at their ages in a van while they go to a meeting in the first place let alone with loaded gun out in the open with that many kids way too young to be left unattended in a car in the first place?????????????
if it been a civilian he'd probably get his children taken away for being so stupid and negligent even if the gun wasn't in the van.....this guy being a cop certainly should have known better imo
only a total idiot would have left a loaded gun in a vehicle with kids that age with no adult supervision
he should be arrested for endangering the lives of his own children as well anyone could have walked up to the van and coerced the kids to open the door and snatch some them kids for all he knows .........but to leave a gun in the van was just stupidity plain and simple
negligent and careless if it been a civilian concealed weapons permit carrier i bet the state would revoke his license immediately

Exactly right on!
No cop should be 'above the law' and they should all be held liable for their own actions just like everybody else is held liable for their actions.
I feel bad for what this cop & his family are all going through, but if anyone should have known better, he should have known better.

 

[eagleeyes]

blues....i agree mom should be tried just as guilty but even more so the dad as it was his gun and he by law is responsible for what happens with it
was the father was the only one with license to carry the gun . was the mother even a ccwp holder. both criminally negligent but the father being he was responsible for HIS gun should still get his gun license suspended as i think if it were me or anybody else with a permit to carry not even a cop would have their permit taken immediately now i wonder if they will let that cop continue to carry a gun or put him on a duty to where he couldn't carry a gun ?? being he certainly was careless and most negligent with HIS gun.
that's what i'm interested in knowing being i know damned well had it been a ccwp holder the permit would most likely been immediatly revoked but cops and sometimes who they know get away with all kinds of stuff most civilians certainly wouldn't have. kinda like those pedo priests who get shipped from one congregation to the next

 

[eagleeyes]

outlaw''No cop should be 'above the law' and they should all be held liable for their own actions just like everybody else is held liable for their actions.''

yup i wholeheartedly agree! unfortunately many are the ones doing more crimes than civilians and get away with it because they in the so called 'good ol boys clubs' and that just ain't right
much more the government and their crimes huge crimes against humanity getting away with much more than murder more like genocide and multi billion drug dealings.......don't get me started on that lolz heheh

 

[eagleeyes]

furthermore teaching a 3 year old to shoot a gun is a bit way to young imo too
when we were kids my parents didn't even let us play with toy guns when everyone had squirt guns we had to use old soap containers to squirt water not guns and when i bought a cap gun my dad took it from me they just didn't see a good reason for kid to play with such toys and i understand their point of view for sure although with my son i made sure he learned to fire a gun when he was a teenager and old enough to know safety with guns but still the guy is an idiot for even teaching a kid that young to play with guns they are not toys and shouldn't be viewed as such in my opinion

 

[NavyLCDR]

I know rules are rules and Laws are Laws but do you think a Prison sentence is going to be worse than the hell that he's already going through? And that hell IS going to last his whole life long! Some people deserve a prison term because of the different situations but in this one my opinion is he is already serving a LIFE sentence! Just my opinion take it for what it's worth. God Bless his daughter.

Just curious.... would you feel the same way if the bullet left the van and struck and killed your child?

 

[eagleeyes]

''Just curious.... would you feel the same way if the bullet left the van and struck and killed your child?''
valid point which could have happened as well thankfully it didn't or that negligent dad and or mom could have had more lawsuits on him and her.. and rightfully so had it happened like that
i just can't get over this sad story all of which could have been easily prevented IF that dad or mother had the sense to secure that gun and their children in the first place
'criminally negligent' is putting it nicely i can think of some not so nice words for that kind of stupidity

 

[SGB]

Yes I would have to say the charge is appropriate. However in reality it'll be plead down to a misd. and he'll more than likely keep his badge.

 

[Purple]

This really is a no win situation for all involved. A young family has lost a child, a young boy has lost his innocence, a police officer will loose his career, the Marysville Police Department will loose their credibility and be under heavy scrutiny with their administrative policies and procedures, a prosecutor will be vilified by many and will probably loose his job at the next election, gun control fanatics will use this as another call to action for a campaign against gun ownership, etc. The whole mess could have been avoided by just using some common sense. Nothing more...just one little glimmer of common sense and making the right decision - a one second decision that can last a lifetime and change the course of many lives.

 

[araczynski]

wow what the hell kind of parent leaves their child erm children at their ages in a van while they go to a meeting in the first place let alone with loaded gun out in the open with that many kids way too young to be left unattended in a car in the first place?????????????
if it been a civilian he'd probably get his children taken away for being so stupid and negligent even if the gun wasn't in the van.....this guy being a cop certainly should have known better imo
only a total idiot would have left a loaded gun in a vehicle with kids that age with no adult supervision
he should be arrested for endangering the lives of his own children as well anyone could have walked up to the van and coerced the kids to open the door and snatch some them kids for all he knows .........but to leave a gun in the van was just stupidity plain and simple
negligent and careless if it been a civilian concealed weapons permit carrier i bet the state would revoke his license immediately

This.

Cops ARE held to a higher standard, their job is to enforce the law. He should definitely do time, lose his job, gun licenses, and should never work as a LEO in any capacity in any state again.

This isn't something you get to say 'ooops' and go on with your position as if nothing happened, ESPECIALLY as a LEO.

 

[ironmike86]

Just leaving the kids in the car along is against the law. Putting a gun in the cup holder??? is just dumb. With that kind of thinking he shouldn't have been a Cop in the first place.

 

[eagleeyes]

''This.

Cops ARE held to a higher standard, their job is to enforce the law. He should definitely do time, lose his job, gun licenses, and should never work as a LEO in any capacity in any state again.

This isn't something you get to say 'ooops' and go on with your position as if nothing happened, ESPECIALLY as a LEO.''

and child protection should be monitoring his parenting skills as well imo what kind of fool lets his kid play with a gun yet they arrested the mother of this childLink Removed
put her in jail smmfh at the stupidity of some parents