Man Open Carrying NOT robbed


Mainsail

Member
From VCDL:

Abbreviations used in VA-ALERT: Link Removed
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Exclusive: I met with the gun owner who saved lives in the
Richmond Golden Market shooting last week


****************************************************************************
1. Exclusive: I met with the gun owner who saved lives in the
Richmond Golden Market shooting last week
****************************************************************************

On Friday I received a surprise call from the gun owner who has been
in the press this week for saving lives at a Richmond store. The gun
owner used a replica 1875 Remington Army .45 Long Colt with a 7 1/2
inch barrel to stop a criminal who had shot the store's owner.

He wanted to remain anonymous, but called so that the story could be
set straight, as much of what was in the press wasn't accurate.

Board member Dennis O'Connor and I ended up meeting with him today
(Saturday) at the Golden Market store, where the shooting had taken
place one week earlier.

Besides being able to actually see the layout of the store, Dennis and
I got to see the security videos of the shooting!

We also got to meet the store owner who had been shot twice during the
hold up, but is now back at his store. More on this great man later.

Here is what we know from talking to the gun owner and watching the
videos:

The gun owner (GO) was in the store waiting in line to pay for an item
when the bad guy (BG) came in wearing dark sunglasses and trying to
coverup his face while brandishing a revolver. The BG yelled for
everyone to get down and before anybody could react, immediately
walked over to the store owner and in a cold-blooded fashion shot him
twice. The owner then dropped down behind the counter. It wasn't
more than 2 seconds after the BG first walked in the doors that he
shot the store owner.

Those shots at the store owner missed a teenage boy's head by inches.

The GO yelled for the BG to drop his gun as the GO drew his gun. The
BG opened fire on the GO. The GO returned fire, hitting the BG as the
GO dove hard for the floor behind some barrels full of ice and drinks.

The BG ran towards the back of the store, aiming his gun at an
innocent man laying prone on the floor. Luckily the BG was too
distracted by the GO to shoot the man. There is no doubt in my mind
that the man would have been shot in cold blood that day if it weren't
for that GO returning fire.

The BG kept trying to get to the front of the store by walking up
various aisles and firing shots at the GO as he did so. At one point
cans of tinned meat exploded on a shelf as the BG took a shot at the GO.

What was bizarre was that the BG actually was strutting around like he
owned the place while under fire! As he approached the front of one
aisle, he again pointed a gun at a person on the ground and was about
to execute him, when he was again distracted by the GO.

Finally the GO spotted the BG at the front of an aisle standing in the
open.

Much to his surprise, the GO discovered that when he dove hard for the
floor he had somehow broken the trigger on his gun!

But the gun was a single action, so the GO pushing himself up with one
arm, aimed the gun, pulled the hammer back and let it fly forward -
twice.

Although seriously wounded three times, the BG came at the GO. The BG
tried to grab the GO's gun since the BG's gun was out of ammunition.
A life-and-death struggle began. The GO got a grip on the BG's gun
and the GO hit the BG twice hard on the temple with the 7 1/2" barrel
on his rather heavy gun.

The BG finally broke off the engagement, tried to run out the front
door, but collapsed at the door.

The GO secured the BG's gun and keeping an eye on the now unconscious
bad guy, called 9-1-1.

The BG has now died (he was in critical condition since the shooting).

The police showed up a minute or so after the 9-1-1 call and initially
had everyone in the store at gun point and handcuffed some until they
could figure out who was who.

What really impressed me was that on the surveillance video, the
owner, while shot twice by the BG, was walking around making sure that
all of his customers were OK after the shooting had ended. He only
let himself collapse after he was sure they were OK! Words fail me on
this. I am so glad that he made it. What a dichotomy - a BG who
shoots an innocent person without provocation, almost killing a
teenager while doing so - caring for no one but himself. And then
the store owner who, while seriously wounded, making sure his
customers were OK. Evil exists and so does Good. Both were on
display in those two minutes of terror. Luckily only the bad guy was
killed. The owner was walking with a limp, clearly in some pain. :-(

A lot of people owe their lives to that GO. However, he is having
none of it, saying that he simply did what he had to do.

--

The GO wanted me to share the following points:

* Buy a quality gun - don't use some cheap $90 gun to protect your
life. He considered his gun to be a good one and even then the
trigger broke under the extreme stress of a life-and-death battle.

* Practice with your gun, get training, and be good with that gun.

* More and more BGs are choosing to kill in cold blood to get what
they want. If they can't live the "good life, " then they don't care
if their crimes send them to jail.

* He also noted that fewer and fewer BGs are getting any jail time.

--

Here are my thoughts from watching that tape:

* Talk about a cold-blooded, fast attack where an innocent was shot
without warning! Unbelievable. Situational awareness is really
important. Luck doesn't hurt, either.

* Open carry was an advantage in this case because in the video I saw
just how fast the GO managed to draw his gun and begin to return
fire. You always hear about how open carry is so bad tactically -
you'll be the first one shot, etc. Oh, yeah? The GO had a HUGE gun
in plain sight and he was NOT shot. Who got shot first? An unarmed
store owner.

* I am betting that the BG was on drugs, big time. He was hit with
THREE 45-CALIBER BULLETS, with at least two of those hits causing
grievous injury, and he continued the fight as if he had not even been
hit at all! In fact he was strutting like a peacock who owned the
place as he was walking up and down the aisles trying to get to a
position where he could shoot the GO. As a gun owner, you need to be
prepared for that eventuality and keep shooting the BG in his center
of mass until he stops his attack. Don't think one shot, or even two
shots, are going to do it. And a head shot might well be what it
takes to stop such an attack quickly.

* If you are out of ammunition, a gun does make a great weapon with
which to bludgeon someone in hand-to-hand combat.

* This shooting bolstered both sides of the argument about how much
ammunition one should carry. The good guy got off only four shots (of
course his gun had a broken trigger and that didn't help). The bad
guy got off six shots and ran out of ammunition (thankfully). But in
my mind, and having had some advanced training, I think an extra
magazine for a semi-auto, or a reloader for a revolver, is a good
idea. WIth someone like the BG above, if you run out of ammunition
before he does, he will execute you. Period.
 

Wow sounds like one hell of a fight. I think that is a great example of why you shouldnt be carrying a single action revolver for self defense. Ofcourse, one reason would be because the trigger broke, but this shoot-out shows that the rule of 3's (3 feet, 3 shots, 3 seconds) doesnt always apply. The GO is lucky the BG only had a revolver too. How long would it have taken him to reload one round at a time after firing all 6 under extreme stress? I'm willing to bet he may at least move to a DA revolver after this, and maybe some speed loaders.
 
The Good Guy here does not know "give up" outstanding performance by an OC'er that saved the lives of several people including his own.

Should the need arise, we should all hope to aquitt ourselves as well as he did. They should present him with a medal, or something....maybe a brand new 1911...or a high cap .40 cal. Sounds like he could use one in his neigborhood.

As my Aussie friends would say "Good on ya mate".

Steve
 
Last edited:
... what a dichotomy — a BG who shoots an innocent person without provocation, almost killing a teenager while doing so — caring for no one but himself. And, then the store owner who, while seriously wounded, making sure his customers were OK. Evil exists and so does Good.

I appreciate the line: "Evil exists and so does Good." Too often all we ever hear from media is how America is just full of BAD! There are still more good people in America than there are bad!

The take away for CCW or OC'rs, is most definitely: buy and carry a quality gun! This sort of life-and-death scenario is the very reason for being armed in the first place! You'll want the very best firearm in your hands if you ever find yourself in a firefight! And, rehearse! Practice shooting... practice drawing... be confident enough in your skill to be ready for come what may.

The importance of good training has been discussed in a number of other posts.
 
The GO's mistake was giving a warning. "When in doubt, empty your magazine--" Murphy's Laws of Combat
 
Last edited:
The GO's mistake was giving a warning. "When in doubt, empty your magazine--" Murphy's Laws of Combat
+1
No warning. The BG displayed his bad intentions by shooting the store owner. Why give this P.O.S. a warning or a chance to kill you. Stop the threat immediately. Most of us think it is cold-hearted to just outright shoot someone and will hesitate. This hesitation can get you killed. I am not a gun fanatic but I know there are times when extreme violence must be met with extreme violence. If you are not willing to do that, sell your guns.
 
+1
No warning. The BG displayed his bad intentions by shooting the store owner. Why give this P.O.S. a warning or a chance to kill you. Stop the threat immediately. Most of us think it is cold-hearted to just outright shoot someone and will hesitate. This hesitation can get you killed. I am not a gun fanatic but I know there are times when extreme violence must be met with extreme violence. If you are not willing to do that, sell your guns.

Exactly.

"The GO yelled for the BG to drop his gun as the GO drew his gun. "

That's a WARNING-- and a mistake; the GO was lucky that the BG wasn't working with someone else-- and criminals usually DO work in teams.

Another Murphy's Law of Combat, is that your enemies won't count off, so you never know where they are; the GO is just LUCKY that his warning, wasn't met with him getting shot in the back or side by an accomplice-- for all he knew, the teenage boy could have been an inside agent.

The PROPER response for the GO, would have been to shoot the BG through the head, and then get to a defensive position (e.g. down behind the counter) and look for other BG's, while also trying to save the store-owner from dying, calling 911 etc. Usually when shooting starts, the other BG's will either shoot back or bolt-- or both.

As for being "cold-blooded," no one with a brain would think that, once the shooting had already started-- and so it was just STUPID to pull the Lone Ranger stuff of "stop shooting, or I'll blast the gun out of your hand."
This ain't a western!
 
Everyone reacts differently to a situation. He tried to stop the bad guy with a threat, but was unsuccessful.
Had that worked, he might have been able to disarm the bad guy and keep him under watch while someone else tended to the store owner and/or called 911.

I don't think there's an easy answer in a situation like this, but I will lean toward the thoughts of: "He just killed someone! I could be next, or anyone else here could be next. I'm not going to wait, this guy is history..." Even so, I don't know if that would be my instant reaction.

I'd say that telling someone shouldn't carry if they aren't willing to execute someone on the spot is overly harsh. This guy saved lives. The only fatality, indeed, the only casualty other than the bad guy was cause by the bad guy before any reaction could take place. I'd say that's about as good as it gets.
 
Now i have to ask. If someone comes in and shoots someone right off the bat. Would you really have to tell them to drop it before you shot them. It seems clear that if he had shot the BG the gun battle would have not taken place?
 
I'd say that telling someone shouldn't carry if they aren't willing to execute someone on the spot is overly harsh.
"Stop the threat immediately" does not translate to "execute someone on the spot." There are plenty of examples where telling someone "stop or I'll shoot" or "drop your gun" has had tragic results. First let me say that I am not advocating immediately pulling the trigger every time you draw your weapon but there examples like this where it is necessary. When you give a warning to someone who just shot somebody without provocation and he has the very real, very immediate potential to do it again you are telling him he has the tactical advantage because you are reluctant to do what he is willing to do and that is to pull the trigger without hesitating. That is not an execution, it is stopping the threat.
 
Everyone reacts differently to a situation.
Everyone reacts the way they train-- and some ways are better than others.

He tried to stop the bad guy with a threat, but was unsuccessful.

Because that's one of the worse ways.

Had that worked, he might have been able to disarm the bad guy and keep him under watch while someone else tended to the store owner and/or called 911.
As he would, if he had emptied his magazine-- with the difference that it would have worked.
However if the warning had worked, then the BG's accomplice could still have shot the GO, thus precluding the above as well.
You say that the BG didn't have an accomplice? That's 20/20 hindsight.

I don't think there's an easy answer in a situation like this, but I will lean toward the thoughts of: "He just killed someone! I could be next, or anyone else here could be next. I'm not going to wait, this guy is history..." Even so, I don't know if that would be my instant reaction.

Because you didn't train with a particular reaction.
Well here's the best one: if you have a clear shot, TAKE IT.

I'd say that telling someone shouldn't carry if they aren't willing to execute someone on the spot is overly harsh.
But if you carry, then you SHOULD train yourself to shoot someone on the spot. You don't have to execute, just shoot staight and deadly-- the bullets will do the reast.

This guy saved lives. The only fatality, indeed, the only casualty other than the bad guy was cause by the bad guy before any reaction could take place. I'd say that's about as good as it gets.

If you believe in pressing your luck-- and as Murphy's law says, "if anything can go wrong, it will."
That's why Murphy's Laws of Combat say "when in doubt, empty your magazine."

Now i have to ask. He someone comes in and shoots someone right off the bat. Would you really have to tell them to drop it before you shot them. It seems clear that if he had shot the BG the gun battle would have not taken place?

Yep, I'd tell them to drop it-- and if they didn't, then I'd shoot the gun out of their hand, jump on my horse and let out a hearty "Hiyo SILVER, AWAY!" and ride off with my faithful indian sidekick Tonto smoking a peace-pipe.

The moral is, THIS AIN'T A WESTERN-- IT'S REALITY. Empty your magazine, and shoot to kill.
 
Everyone reacts the way they train-- and some ways are better than others.



Because that's one of the worse ways.


As he would, if he had emptied his magazine-- with the difference that it would have worked.
However if the warning had worked, then the BG's accomplice could still have shot the GO, thus precluding the above as well.
You say that the BG didn't have an accomplice? That's 20/20 hindsight.



Because you didn't train with a particular reaction.
Well here's the best one: if you have a clear shot, TAKE IT.


But if you carry, then you SHOULD train yourself to shoot someone on the spot. You don't have to execute, just shoot staight and deadly-- the bullets will do the reast.



If you believe in pressing your luck-- and as Murphy's law says, "if anything can go wrong, it will."
That's why Murphy's Laws of Combat say "when in doubt, empty your magazine."



Yep, I'd tell them to drop it-- and if they didn't, then I'd shoot the gun out of their hand, jump on my horse and let out a hearty "Hiyo SILVER, AWAY!" and ride off with my faithful indian sidekick Tonto smoking a peace-pipe.

The moral is, THIS AIN'T A WESTERN-- IT'S REALITY. Empty your magazine, and shoot to kill.

That's what i was getting at people watch way to much tv/movies. As you can see here doing so will not only endanger your self but everyone in the store when a full on gun battle starts. I have no idea about the rest of you but i don't know if i would be able to shoot a spinning moving target before he gets off a shot at me or someone else. I think the only time i would tell someone to drop it would be if they had a knife or a baseball bat. But if someone walks in with a 12G ot a Mac 10 or any gun i think i would wait to see what happens and how he acts. If he comes in shooting and shoots someone i would shoot them. But if they came in acted cool and got the money and left instead of endangering my self and others by starting a gun battle or by shooting him. I would study them and be the best witness i could be for the police.
 
That's based on a level of trust that the "calm, cool and collected criminal" is ok with leaving witnesses that could potentially ID him to/for the police.

I trust criminals with my life about as much as I trust the gov't with my life... oh wait. Redundant statement.
 
That's based on a level of trust that the "calm, cool and collected criminal" is ok with leaving witnesses that could potentially ID him to/for the police.

I trust criminals with my life about as much as I trust the gov't with my life... oh wait. Redundant statement.

Bingo. There HAVE been cases of criminals who simply decide that they don't want any witnesses, and so they just start shooting even after they've gotten their victims TIED UP.

Criminals aren't the most long-term thinkers in the world-- in fact they tend to be IMMEDIATE thinkers who act on the spur of the moment, and react to immediate circumstances. That's why they ARE criminals, i.e. since virtually anyone can tell you that ALL criminals get caught eventually; and so committing a crime, is the same as going to jail.

But they commit crimes anyway-- NOT because they think they're never going to get caught, but simply because their brains simply don't think that far ahead. So it's entirely possible that they'll rob first, and think about what to do with witnesses later-- and then shoot; or they might simply shoot first.
 
Thier's a lot of talk here about how the go warned the bg first, which resulted in a gun battle. No one knows exactly how he or she would react in a situation like that, even if you train for a situation like that it still doesn't mean you would shoot the bg in the back with out a warning. It's really easy to speak in he should of's , but you werent thiere, and i think he did just fine.
 
Sure, the GO made some mistakes, but in the end it all worked out. Everyone deserving of the air they breathe is still here. Hopefully he'll learn from the situation and fortunately for us, we can all learn from it too.

+1 for law abiding citizens with guns.
 
having been on the receiving end of a robbery I cannot complain that the Gun owner helped clean up the environment a little bit, so he did not do the perfect text thing no one is perfect.
 
"Stop the threat immediately" does not translate to "execute someone on the spot." There are plenty of examples where telling someone "stop or I'll shoot" or "drop your gun" has had tragic results. First let me say that I am not advocating immediately pulling the trigger every time you draw your weapon but there examples like this where it is necessary. When you give a warning to someone who just shot somebody without provocation and he has the very real, very immediate potential to do it again you are telling him he has the tactical advantage because you are reluctant to do what he is willing to do and that is to pull the trigger without hesitating. That is not an execution, it is stopping the threat.


Good argument...
 
"Stop the threat immediately" does not translate to "execute someone on the spot." There are plenty of examples where telling someone "stop or I'll shoot" or "drop your gun" has had tragic results. First let me say that I am not advocating immediately pulling the trigger every time you draw your weapon but there examples like this where it is necessary. When you give a warning to someone who just shot somebody without provocation and he has the very real, very immediate potential to do it again you are telling him he has the tactical advantage because you are reluctant to do what he is willing to do and that is to pull the trigger without hesitating. That is not an execution, it is stopping the threat.

In the case of LEO if the BG shot first you can bet the LEO would have fired at the BG with little or no warning to stop anyone else from being harmed or killed (That's what they are trained to do). In that situation I would have drawn and fired since the initial action of the BG was to shoot. I'm sure the witnesses in the store and the store owner would have gotten the story right. And to think there are people out there who believe that we (armed citizens) should not have the right to keep and bear arms... Well.. Score one for the “Guy in the White Cowboy Hat”...:thank_you2:
 

New Threads

Members online

No members online now.

Forum statistics

Threads
49,542
Messages
611,258
Members
74,963
Latest member
BFerguson
Back
Top