looking for some input regarding a situation.

[dlo253]

Please delete. Ignorance is contagious.

 

[cawpin]

First, having a CCW has nothing to do with how the first officer responds. Like you said, he got a report if a man with a gun. He has to treat you as such. As far as the incident, I really think you should have called the police yourself to try to avoid the described situation.

As for getting your stuff back, I think you're probably sitting ok since they didn't arrest you. However, if the prosecutor is a hot head you may have some trouble.

Personally, I feel that they shouldn't have taken your firearm if they weren't arresting you. If you aren't committing a crime to be arrested for you aren't committing a crime where your property can be seized. But, again, that's just my personal opinion. IANAL

Good luck.

 

[Firefighterchen]

I will try to keep it as short as possible, while giving all the important information. Although I may bounce around from certain points of the event.

This Monday I was pulled over, gun drawn on me and my girlfriend. Forced to the ground cuffed and thrown in a cop car.... I believe the officer was doing his job until the point when he had my gun and cuffed me. I clearly stated I was a legal concealed carrier that did nothing wrong and would like to explain myself. He continued to treat me like a criminal.
Here's the actual incident.

Driving down the road, some moron cuts off the Guy in front of me. So I merge over to avoid hitting him. I then continue and try to merge back over.....the Guy that was in front of me that got cut off, and everybody else. Would not let me merge back, the Guy actually sped up And was driving wreckless so I couldn't merge. After that went on a bit, middle fingers were exchanged. The man then proceeded to get behind me and follow me. Once stuck at a stop light waiting to turn, the man is yelling out his window and weilding what looked to be a shotgun at first glance... so I pulls my firearm and displayed it through my window (keeping it inside my car) in hopes that he would quit following me. Then noticed that maybe it wasn't a shotgun, but was some sort of long weapon. Light turned green.... I was trying to just lose him, without endangering others on the road. He continued to follow me for a good 3 miles. Then I guess he called the cops and said I was brandishing a firearm at him. I displayed my firearm because the man was chasing me while holding some weapon, which of course he did not tell the cops That part. Anyways, I get pulled over and the cop draws on me. Already said That part, lol.... I clearly stated multiple times, that I am a legal carrier and am not a criminal, and have done nothing wrong. After finding I was legal, he still treated me like a criminal. Then told me my gun wasn't registered to me and I didn't buy it new, even though I have a receipt from 2 weeks ago.... more officers came, they treated me how they should, and actually answered my questions. Anyways, they confiscated my firearm and holster, didn't take my cpl. They said that I will get something in the mail, and if it says no legal action is being taken, I can schedule to pick my stuff up..... my question, from this info, do you guys think I will be able to get it back? And if I have to go to court, don't you guys think I should be alright when the story is told? I think the first cop acted That way because the Guy that called obviously didn't say he was following me and flashing a weapon and yelling. All he knew was he got a call of a man flashing a gun..... although he could have pulled up that I have a cpl I'm sure. So much for keeping it short..... your input is needed and appreciated. Thank you.

Some points that need to be addressed:

1. Because you are a law abiding carrier, its your duty to not escalate a situation. You should not have exchanged words or fingers at all. Having said that, words and fingers were exchanged so.....
2. After he brandished some kind of weapon, and you had the opportunity to drive away, you should have called 911. You should always be the first one to call 911!
3. While it's not necessary because you felt your life was in danger, it would of helped greatly if you could vocalize what weapon he was pointing at you. It could of been a cane for all you know...
4. If you go to court, get an attorney. Do not try and do this on your own.
5. It's your choice how you want to treat and be treated, and what you want to tell or not tell the officers. My advice in this situation involving police, becuase you are all ready the "criminal", you are their target. I would of remained silent until you could calmly think it over and talk with an attorney, because who knows what you blabbed without thinking because of nervousness.

In the end, if you are a good guy (because I do not know you), and you truely felt in danger, had to draw your gun, and are still alive because of it, I hope that everything takes care of itself and you get your stuff back.

 

[Raider-3]

What ask people, since I wasn't there, could you justify deadly force in a written statement that would be read in court. Because the reason that gun should have come out, is because you felt your life or someones life was in immediate threat of death our serious bodily injury.

 

[Warbirds]

As you described the situation I would not have pulled my gun. I would have placed a call to the police. You put yourself in the position of having to defend your actions and explain why if you were afraid for your safety why you weren't afraid enough to call. I think you have an uphill fight that probably won't end well.

 

[localgirl]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: it's got little to do with facts, and a lot to do with appearances. The cops have absolutely no clue that this guy flashed something at you that looked like a weapon. They know that you guys were playing road games, and that YOU brandished. You are the bad guy from the get-go, and it's going to take a LOT to turn that around.

Like others said, you should have been the one to call: "Some guy just flashed what looked like a shotgun at me! I'm really nervous about this! I have a legally-carried weapon on my person, and I really don't want to have to use it."

You may have been totally in the right, but it's your job to make it LOOK like you were in the right.

 

[Firefighterchen]

Yes I know I should have been the first to call 911. But as I was in the process of trying to get this Guy off my tail while not endangering any innocent drivers. The way I was trying to escape, wouldn't be safe for me to be on the phone as well. I figure I was justifiable for me to draw my gun. He managed to stay on my tail, and I got stuck at a stop light while he I behind me yelling and holding a weapon. Once I lost him, calling the cops couldn't have helped. As I did not get a chance to get his plates because I was trying to escape from him chasing me. Thanks for the quick replies everybody.

It's easy to say what you should have done in hindsight, especially if we weren't the ones in the situation. So whatever you read here, you will take it differently based on your personal experience. BUT...calling the police first will always help your case in this situation. Even if "it was a blue truck" was your only description, or you call 911 and set the phone down and drive so that they have it recorded you attempte to call, it would have helped. I mean...if he had the time to call 911, while chasing you, while being angry...maybe you could have put a little more effort into calling 911. This will be a pivotal point in your life. You will be better prepared if this happens again (hopefully it doesn't). Learn from it and train for it.

 

[Rich_S]

Never give anyone the finger in traffic while you're carrying. You just can't do it. An instructor who was employed at the facility where I work is about to become a felon and lose his rights for life over a similar incident. Long story short....he was involved in a road rage incident similar to the OP. The other guy ended up coming at him with a baseball bat and he drew down on him. It would have been legal for him to draw except for the fact that he was a part of the escalation of violence. He should have just driven away and never given the finger and yelled.
OP: I'm trying to understand what type of roadway you were on where you were trying to merge back in. If they blocked you could you have just stopped or slowed down and let them drive by? The bottom line is that you can never do anything that will escalate violence while carrying. I don't know WA law but IMO this will not end well for you.....

 

[wallyb]

You were wrong. What is troubling to me is that you did not/do not seem to understand the consequences of brandishing a weapon. Escalating the situation by waving a weapon around inside a moving vehicle is the sort of thing gang bangers do. Pulling out a pistol in the Middle of a simple road rage confrontation is kind of dumb. The story about the driver of the other car having a weapon out and pointed at you is not going to fly.

 

[Warbirds]

Good point localgirl. That's the messed up part tho kinda..... very difficult to Get a phone from my pant pocket while the seatbelt goes right over it, and I'm driving a manual car trying to evade some crazy Guy chasing me. He's the bad Guy, but made m look like it by calling and not saying he did any of his actions, just a man flashed a gun. But, my girlfriend was with me. And our reports both state that h had already Ben following us for a while. The officers changed their attitudes after they realized that. Except the first one... sorry for the bad grammar and spelling, I am on a phone. I just hope I get my gun back, I did nothing wrong.

It sounds like you are just trying to justify you're actions and get backing. Sorry dude, even driving a stick you can get your cell out of you're pocket and into your girlfriends hands to call police. That if if she doesn't have her own cell.

This is a good example of why you don't say anything to the police. The more details you provide us the less credible you sound.

 

[Cotillion]

I didn't read the other responses so if I'm beating a dead horse I'm sorry!

As far as any legal issues go I think you'll be ok and should be able to get your stuff back. I really hope you learned from this situation however that you never pull unless you're in direct danger. I totally understand the reason behind what you did and brandishing from a legal chl holder SHOULDN'T be a crime if its an attempt to dissuade someone acting like this, but unfortunately it is, and if it ever happens again dial 911 and drive to the police station.

This type of incident is actually quite common. I have a bad case of road rage myself but luckily have kept it in check up until now. About 2 months back I got up at 5:30 to get the kid ready for school and my usual routine is to climb out of bed and drive to the coffee shop. Well I live about 5 miles from the nearest stand but most of it is back roads with a 40-45mph speed limit.

So here I am driving down the road, going 42 in a 40 when all of a sudden a car is in front of me. I don't know if her lights were off and she just put them on or if she jumped out from a side road. Either way she's driving 28 miles an hour in what is now a 45. I try and slow down to wait for her to speed up, but about half a mile going under 30 I started getting pissed so I honked. She brake checks me 3 times! She then drops down to 20 and swerves around so I can't pass her ( 2 lane road ) for about 2 miles. The road then turns into a 4 lane road so I go to break around her and she literally would not let me pass!

I finally managed to bomb passed her at 60 mph and she was screaming and flipping me off. At this point my goal was to drive as fast as I could about a mile up the road, pull over and draw my .357 at her as she drove up. Luckily I got my wits about me before I did and started laughing and just drove off. I bet she never would have pulled crap like that again had I done it though!

 

[Rich_S]

Now I get called a gangbanger?
By the time I pulled my firearm out, he was stalking/intimidating me according to RCW 9A.46.110

I love how I look like the criminal all because I couldn't call the police while trying to get some crazy Guy away from chasing me down with a weapon. Gotta love it.

It doesn't matter if you look like a criminal in a net forum. It does matter if you look like a criminal with an LEO responding to an incident. The other guy was wrong but so were you. If you had pulled over and let him drive by when you were blocked from merging in would we be having this discussion right now?

 

[Rich_S]

At this point my goal was to drive as fast as I could about a mile up the road, pull over and draw my .357 at her as she drove up. Luckily I got my wits about me before I did and started laughing and just drove off.

yeah- luckily alright....WTF, over

 

[Rich_S]

Thanks for your input cotillion. Definitely would have been bed for you to pull your 357 out though Haha.

And as people always say, its easier to say what to do when your not actually in the situation at the spur of the moment. Thoughts don't process the same, only thing on my mind was safely getting away from that Guy so he could not harm me or my girlfriend.

Interesting....

You thank the guy who says you'll be OK with this because this is obviously what you wanted to hear. If your goal was to keep yourself and the GF safe why didn't you pull over when you were blocked from merging instead of giving someone the finger? As you have now learned you never can tell who you're dealing with and what they're going to do.

 

[Raider-3]

If you haven't done do it yet, write the whole thing down, beginning to end who, what, where, when, why, and how.not for us, but for yourself. If you can show your thought process as events played out, it could help if the law pursues action

 

[Treo]

I believe it was justifiable. Was I gonna wait until he was right at my window with whatever weapon he had? If I legally carry a weapon, it is for self defense. The act of pulling it out was In hopes that he would see it and the situation would stop, as in. Defending myself from anything worse happening. I don't see any crime here on my part. I understand I could be charged with brandishing. But the gun was out in acts of self defense, and it was inside my vehicle not pointed at or near anybody. Simply held up in hopes he would see it and just quit chasing me.

It doesn't matter what you think is justifiable it matters if the D.A. thinks it was justifiable. If you can't clearly articulate why you felt that you were in life threatening danger you had absolutely no reason to draw that firearm.

In Colorado you very likely would have been arrested for felony menacing. You didn't pull the gun to defend yourself you pulled to make the other guy go away your words.

If you get out of this w/out being charged you need to take a class on justified use of deadly force IAW your state laws.

 

[localgirl]

One of the most difficult things about being a carrier is that you have taken steps to ensure you will not be a victim, or at least greatly reduce your chances. Yet, out in the world, your defensive actions can only be justified if you have become or are about to become a victim. It's a frustrating situation to be in, especially for men.

It makes all the sense in the world that you ought to be able to brandish a weapon to discourage someone from harassing or potentially harming you, but there's an intricate set of rules that we have to follow BECAUSE we have chosen to set ourselves apart from the rest of society, and because we have chosen to do it in a law-abiding fashion.

None of us were there when this happened, except you. It's easy to say what we might or might not have done. Only you know if you did the right thing, and only you have to deal with the consequences.

I think if you can make it clear that you really believed you were being threatened with a weapon, that your actions will seem much more justified to whoever decides your fate.

 

[Treo]

I finally managed to bomb passed her at 60 mph and she was screaming and flipping me off. At this point my goal was to drive as fast as I could about a mile up the road, pull over and draw my .357 at her as she drove up. Luckily I got my wits about me before I did and started laughing and just drove off. I bet she never would have pulled crap like that again had I done it though!

Yeah, you might really want to consider putting the gun away until you grow up

For realls

 

[Treo]

Also, if I do get charged with brandishing. Is That grounds to revoke my cpl? I could see why, if so. And if so... is it also grounds to make it so I can't possess a firearm at all?

Yes indeedy it is,in fact, enough to get you prohibited person status for life.

you may spend the rest of your life paying for five minutes of stupid

 

[CapGun]

Well here goes>>>>> Didn't read all the posts, just the first page and the last page. This is what sticks out in my mind about the original post.
You have a receipt for your gun which you purchased TWO WEEKS before the incident!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You have a Concealed Permit and therefore you are a law abiding citizen but by your words you felt justified in trying to "scare" him off by flashing your gun which is against the law and CALLED "BRANDISHING".
You "exchanged fingers" which led to an ESCALATION of the situation.
How long have you had your CCP? You stated you just purchased your gun just two weeks prior to this incident.
I'd comment more but having trouble seeing it your way because of all the RED FLAGS blocking my view!