Lets just chew this what if over for a bit

[festus]

What if you are getting some fast food and an armed criminal enters the store?
You decide to take action as you are faced with a BG with a gun.
You do every thing right and discharge your weapon to stop the threat with 3 shots fired all to the center of mass before your perp dropped due to the amount of recreational compounds bouncing in his brain stem.
Directly behind the perp through the shattered glass door lies a badly injured child (possibly critically injured).
The xyz brand of defensive carry rounds you used punched straight through the thoracic cavity and appear to have hit a child, just outside the eatery.
You did not see the child. You were focused on the threat.
The child was concealed from view by the threat.
Who is responsible for the child's injuries?
Is it the perp?
Is it the property owner?
Is it the company who made the glass door?
Is it the firearm or ammunition manufacturer?
Is it you?
I guarantee you that the child's family wants answers.

This being said, I still carry every time we leave the house and I am legally able to. But I also believe that the use of deadly force requires a very serious responsibility, otherwise it would just be the use of force.

 

[Farmhood]

It is you...my friend

 

[nraynes]

"Know your target and what is beyond"
If you don't know you take all responsibility . It is your fault. Cut and dry.

 

[CGolightly]

Actually, it's the BG! Recently proven in court, the BG & any accomplice was responsible! Investigate it!

 

[apvbguy]

in some states golightly would be correct and the shooter would not have any law problems, in some more anti gun states the shooter would go through the ringer but probably get off or a minor conviction and in the worst of places the shooter could see jail time

 

[RonM0710]

Civil liability will/can attach to the shooter. That is why police are taught not to shoot without clear backstop. Of course NYPD didn't do that recently.

 

[CGolightly]

Yes, we are responsible for what's downrange (if we miss), but what won the case was the "stress factor" involved. Not all of us are combat proven, and will sometimes miss. And, a large caliber bullet might pass through, depending on range. Now, after all factors were mixed in... Our Good Guy was exonerated! It's not all cut and dried!

 

[XD357grandpa]

Pull that trigger and expect the flak from 3 directions. Law, justice dept. and civil. The law will side with you that the perp is responsible but Justice Dept. and Civil suits will nail you as the bad guy.

 

[Treo]

Yes, we are responsible for what's downrange (if we miss), but what won the case was the "stress factor" involved. Not all of us are combat proven, and will sometimes miss. And, a large caliber bullet might pass through, depending on range. Now, after all factors were mixed in... Our Good Guy was exonerated! It's not all cut and dried!

Cite please????

My first question is “Why am I starting a gunfight to defend the Burger Barn’s till?” The overwhelming majority of armed robberies end with no shots fired (according to the DoJ) so why would I engage the bad guy in the first place

1 dead, one injured in Miami Burger King shooting
BY ROBERT SAMUELS AND JENNIFER LEBOVICH
[email protected]
One man was killed and another seriously wounded in a shootout inside a Miami Burger King on Tuesday, officials said.

Police said a man wearing a ski mask walked into the store at Biscayne Boulevard and 54th Street and demanded money from a clerk.

A customer, who has a concealed weapons permit, pulled a gun, said Officer Jeff Giordano, a Miami police spokesman.

The customer and robber exchanged fire.

The robber was shot dead at the scene.

The customer, who had several gunshot wounds, was taken to Ryder Trauma Center in serious but stable condition, said Lt. Ignatius Carroll, a Miami Fire Rescue spokesman.

At about 4 p.m., officials got several 911 calls reporting people shot inside the Burger King.

 

[SCTom]

you pulled the trigger, you gotta live with it even if you're not legally at fault.

 

[Rocketgeezer]

This has been brought up before, and what makes it worse is if the very same thing hppened to a LEO, he more likely that not would not have to answer for it, but a private citizen with a CCW permit, would definatly have hell to pay, just the though scares the hell out of me everytime I see some questionable dirtbag come in, but if he pulled a gun and was threaten me, my family or the other patrons and crew, and if possable get a clear shot he would most likely get a 45 in the head, hopefuly the clear shot would be there

 

[Riverkilt]

Here's a question. The staff of such fast food places are taught to cooperate and hand over the money and get the BG out of the store as soon as possible. Will you be asked why you didn't just let him leave so no one got hurt?

Maybe give us some more detail on "faced" one would guess that the BG was focused on the cash registers behind the counter and the customers would be in the store eating or waiting for their order.

Oops. just saw Treo's post...

 

[dcselby1]

Actually, it's the BG! Recently proven in court, the BG & any accomplice was responsible! Investigate it!

The CHILD was an accomplice?

 

[K7lvo]

What if you are getting some fast food and an armed criminal enters the store?
You decide to take action as you are faced with a BG with a gun.
You do every thing right and discharge your weapon to stop the threat with 3 shots fired all to the center of mass before your perp dropped due to the amount of recreational compounds bouncing in his brain stem.
Directly behind the perp through the shattered glass door lies a badly injured child (possibly critically injured).
The xyz brand of defensive carry rounds you used punched straight through the thoracic cavity and appear to have hit a child, just outside the eatery.
You did not see the child. You were focused on the threat.
The child was concealed from view by the threat.
Who is responsible for the child's injuries?
Is it the perp?
Is it the property owner?
Is it the company who made the glass door?
Is it the firearm or ammunition manufacturer?
Is it you?
I guarantee you that the child's family wants answers.

This being said, I still carry every time we leave the house and I am legally able to. But I also believe that the use of deadly force requires a very serious responsibility, otherwise it would just be the use of force.

The answer is that the perp is 100% responsible, and a JUSTICE system would quickly make that finding, not that you feel any better about it. By letting the perp go, which you are pretty much forced to do in our LEGAL system, it's pretty much a given that the perp, learning from today's success, will wind up killing an innocent person in a future robbery. When that happens, do you feel regret that you didn't stop him when you had the chance, or do you feel relief that it didn't happen "on your watch," or both?

Most, if not all, states have a "good Samaritan law" that prevents a volunteer caregiver from liability as long as they're acting within the scope of their training. Wouldn't it be great if sheepdogs had similar protection? (I know... But, dreaming is allowed, isn't it?)

<Rant> What is "just" about a system that expects the victim to stand passively by while $thousands of damage is done to his property - damage that he will wind up paying for? (Either directly, or in the form of higher insurance premiums) For example, the three-on-one road rage episode discussed on another thread. The victim should have been legally able to use his weapon (gun) the instance the perps - I think "Zombies" could apply, here - used their weapons (vehicles.)

What is "just" about a system that expects the victim to endure physical assault and prevents them from employing the "equalizer" because maybe the perp "was just funnin" and doesn't "deserve" to die for "merely" injuring - no matter how severely - somebody.

As long as we continue to coddle these Zombies, the more we will have to put up,with their BS! But, then, chaos achieves the liberals'/progressives' purpose by making the sheeple lean eeverything more heavily on the government...
</Rant>

 

[fuhr52]

The perp will be the victim by the time the liberal bleeding heart lawyers get done. Their job is to cast a shadow of doubt with the jury. The truth has no place in a modern day court room.

 

[K7lvo]

The perp will be the victim by the time the liberal bleeding heart lawyers get done. Their job is to cast a shadow of doubt with the jury. The truth has no place in a modern day court room.

Which is why it's the legal system, not the justice system.

 

[Deserteagle]

Know your target and beyond. You may or may not be criminally liable depending on your state and the circumstances, but you can guarantee on being civilly liable and being sued for everything you own.

 

[tcox4freedom]

The CHILD was an accomplice?

No, that is NOT what he's saying.

It has long been held up by various cases in court, if a criminal is committing a violent felony which results in death of severe bodily harm of anyone during the crime or as a result of a BG trying to flee the scene, the BG is held "criminally" responsible; (even if it is NOT the result of the direct action of the BG).

Recently, the law concerning deaths of innocents at the hands of a CC'er defending themselves and/or other innocents during a violent crime has come under scrutiny. I think that's what is being discussed here. Some states have laws that will protect a CWP holder in such cases from criminal prosecution & other states do not.

I do think most states will allow for "civil" prosecution in cases like this. That's why we need to pursue advanced training when it comes to our responsibility as CC'ers.

For instance;
In the scenario described in the OP. If the CC'er had been "aware of the target & what's behind it", perhaps he could have dropped to a knee or moved slightly to one side or the other thus, changing the angle & trajectory, he would have had a safe shot.

Absolutely NOTHING beats time spent working on your SA when it comes to protecting yourself and OTHERS when you make the choice to carry a firearm!

(My motto is and ALWAYS will be: "Train the Brain!")

-

 

[fudo]

What if you are getting some fast food and an armed criminal enters the store?
You decide to take action as you are faced with a BG with a gun.
You do every thing right and discharge your weapon to stop the threat with 3 shots fired all to the center of mass before your perp dropped due to the amount of recreational compounds bouncing in his brain stem.
Directly behind the perp through the shattered glass door lies a badly injured child (possibly critically injured).
The xyz brand of defensive carry rounds you used punched straight through the thoracic cavity and appear to have hit a child, just outside the eatery.
You did not see the child. You were focused on the threat.
The child was concealed from view by the threat.
Who is responsible for the child's injuries?
Is it the perp?
Is it the property owner?
Is it the company who made the glass door?
Is it the firearm or ammunition manufacturer?
Is it you?
I guarantee you that the child's family wants answers.

This being said, I still carry every time we leave the house and I am legally able to. But I also believe that the use of deadly force requires a very serious responsibility, otherwise it would just be the use of force.

the perp is the responsible party when death or injury occurs during the commission of a crime.

 

[Rhino]

Armed robberies with no shots fired are supposedly decreasing. It seems the bad guys have decreasing respect for life. However, a fast food restaurant is probably the least likely place for them to practice summary executions, so I likely would hold my fire there unless some other circumstances dictated otherwise.