LEOs carrying concealed and drinking in a bar in Michigan.

[SimonJester]

Twice in the past month, I've noticed police going into a bar with side arms. I check IDs at a local bar and try to keep the peace.

One was an officer, off duty, in partial uniform and was still carrying his pistol on his belt. The bar owner said he was a semi-regular and let him stay.

Another was an off-duty officer in mufti. He showed me his ID and badge when I asked for it at the door. This was the only reason I didn't call the local police when I saw the bulge under his shirt. I was concerned and just as I was telling the owner, the officer raised both hands on the dance floor and flashed us all with his gun. I 'facepalmed' and looked at my boss. With a nod from her, I confronted him. I told him that he had the choice of either leaving for the night or taking the gun to his car.

Both of the officers were drinking.

I talked with the first officer again last night. Seems knowledgeable and personable. He showed me on his CPL that there is an exemption for LEOs and I went to look up the law.

Michigan Legislature - Section 28.425o

Yes, LEOs may carry on prohibited property (churches, bars, auditoriums), but what I haven't been able to nail down yet, is can a LEO carry and drink?

When I carry, the law states clearly that any drinking on my part is illegal. Is there an exemption for LEOs when they carry?

 

[ma6907]

why dont you just be happy that a LEO has you back in case something really bad happens and concentrate your efforts at keeping the people out that you want out! Tell those guys that you are happy to have them if bad stuff happens and tell them that if they ever need you when you are off, you would help them too. They are your friends, not your enemies!

 

[SimonJester]

Why? They are drunk and they have guns.

 

[abock33]

why dont you just be happy that a LEO has you back in case something really bad happens and concentrate your efforts at keeping the people out that you want out! Tell those guys that you are happy to have them if bad stuff happens and tell them that if they ever need you when you are off, you would help them too. They are your friends, not your enemies!

I think I detect sarcasm.

For the op. I would think they would have the same zero tolerance as regular ccw carriers. Ask their superiors or the state police.
Imo it seems
Like the leos think they are above the law because they think that they are the law.

 

[krazyk]

why dont you just be happy that a LEO has you back in case something really bad happens and concentrate your efforts at keeping the people out that you want out! Tell those guys that you are happy to have them if bad stuff happens and tell them that if they ever need you when you are off, you would help them too. They are your friends, not your enemies!

Ya be happy they're screwing you with a Phillips head instead of a flat head :sarcastic:
Ever heard of leading by example?

 

[GeneralSumter]

I would contact the chief of police and find out for sure. Then, if they are not supposed to be drinking & carrying, I'd not allow them in. Unfortunately, if they get unruly... who you gonna call? :fie: I suppose you could call 911 and just report "drunks with guns in your bar" and don't tell them that you know they are cops. That'll get uniforms there quick. Probably what I would do.

 

[2beararms]

Why? They are drunk and they have guns.

Therein lies the question ... are they "drinking" or are they "drunk"?

I happen to be in an area (Florida) where drinking and carrying are a legal combination. Drunk and handling a weapon are not. Many people CCW or LEO drink and carry and unless they get sloppy drunk it never creates a problem. It is the same as driving, the point you are impaired is definable. The zero alcholol rules are based on the same logic as the zero guns rules ... none.

I didn't see ma6907's response as sarcastic. If this was Burger King you would be happy to have an armed cop at a table. I don't see the difference. The real question is what is does the law say is your (meaning your establishments) responsibility in this.

If the law requires that your establishment keep people from being armed (or armed and drinking in the case of LEO) while in your property and you can be held responsible for violations (such as is the case for age), then by all means YES get rid of these guys. (I would assume if that is the case that you have metal detectors or you search every patron just as you check id's, so I doubt it is the case.) However, if the law says that a person cannot be armed and in your premises but it is NOT your responsibility (it is the patron who will be charged, not you) then I would say leave it be unless they are getting sloppy drunk ... in which case DO NOT HANDLE IT, let local LEO do it.

Yes, LEO's often think they are above the law but when they get caught in that attitude by their department they face the stiffness of the penalty. (and internal justice in LEO can be so much worse than external penalties, but not publicly understood). As noted, you could call THEIR cheif and report it.

Trying to enforce "civilian" law on LEO is simply asking for trouble. I know of bars that have tried to make LEO's follow civillian law and have wound up night after night with the partying stopped and every one of their patrons having to produce ID (or worse). After a few nights of that, there is no one left in the bar and you are pretty much out of business.

Is this legal ... probably not, but it happens everyday somewhere. It is just above the "thin blue line".

Only a fool decides to police the police. If you are not happy with the situation then let other LEO handle it. Simply call local LEO and tell them exactly what the problem is, they will either do something or will not but either way, it is no longer your problem unless these guys are drunk enough that they are going to start waving guns or shooting people out of stupor in which case local LEO WILL handle it.

 

[ma6907]

Man--I wasn't trying to start a shit storm! I am a small business owner and I like it when LEO's carry at my business because I know if something happens, they are already there to help. This has come up several times (2 that I can think of off the top of my head). I am not encouraging people to drink and carry but I wouldnt dream of escorting a LEO out! If they are not causing trouble, let them stay. All LEO's that I know carry EVERYWHERE they go. One guy I know had a 2 shot .22 in his pocket at the altar when he got married They are targeted everywhere they go--if they are not drunk or rowdy, cut em a break!

 

[abock33]

why dont you just be happy that a LEO has you back in case something really bad happens and concentrate your efforts at keeping the people out that you want out! Tell those guys that you are happy to have them if bad stuff happens and tell them that if they ever need you when you are off, you would help them too. They are your friends, not your enemies!

I didn't mean sarcastic in a bad way... I just thought the bold statement was funny sarcasm. I agree having a presence of the law is a goog thing to have in case the shtf, but like stated above I think they should lead by example. If they want to drink and have a good time they should leave the firearms in the car.

I wouldn't think there even has to be a law about drinking and ccw for LEOs. they are in the eyes of the public and are judged in everything they do. I do agree that I wouldn't worry about it unless their drinking and conduct get out of hand.

As for the accidental showing of the one guys firearm. I would probably remind him that other people in the bar might not know he is a cop and get worried about a MWG inside a bar.

 

[ma6907]

The Bold statment was actually something that a LEO told me when I asked him about civilians and CCW. He said he was happy to have everyday people trained to carry firearms and he hoped that if he ever got pinned down, a civilian might help him. That is why I said that. (I live in Tennessee).

 

[chroode]

To the original poster,

You are an EMPLOYEE, let the OWNER make decisions, and any contact with the officers superiors. If you get involved and this thing backfires you could be let go.

As long as they are not getting out of hand I would definetly drop the matter.

 

[Piece Corps]

I have several LEO friends (including a Customs/HS guy) in Florida, and all of them are told to carry their guns with them ALL THE TIME, including off-duty. I wouldn't expect any of them to get drunk while carrying, but they ca nlegally carry in bars.

 

[commissaire02]

I always say "don't mix the A and the F of "ATF"" (Get it...Alcohol + Firearms?) Absent any law, rule or regulation stating differently (with a stricter standard) I don't touch a gun if my blood alcohol is over 0.04 as that is when impairment starts to set in, for me thats about 1-1/2 beers per hour.

LEO or not they need to be careful and IMO drinking to any appreciable level while in possession of a gun is not the safest move in the book

 

[BradAnderson]

why dont you just be happy that a LEO has you back in case something really bad happens and concentrate your efforts at keeping the people out that you want out! Tell those guys that you are happy to have them if bad stuff happens and tell them that if they ever need you when you are off, you would help them too. They are your friends, not your enemies!

They're public servants, sir, not friends-- and drinking while armed, is not the act acceptable for either one. Such an attitude lacks intelligence.

 

[BradAnderson]

To the original poster,

You are an EMPLOYEE, let the OWNER make decisions, and any contact with the officers superiors. If you get involved and this thing backfires you could be let go.

As long as they are not getting out of hand I would definetly drop the matter.

He's a bouncer, but doesn't like using that term. He has every reason to be concerned with armed drunks, regardless of whether they carry badges. I would make an anonymous complaint to their CO.

The employer also has a legal duty to protect the safety of the invitee's (patrons), as well as the licensees (employees).

Drinking and carrying IS "out of hand."

 

[stumpjumper101]

I am not a LEO. i do work closely with LEO's on a daily basis due to the nature of my job being a paramedic firefighter. i often carry concealled into resteraunts that serve on premisis, which according to our state code is punishable with a misdemeanor trespassing charge. the way i see it is i would rather be able to defend my self and my family should a life threatening event happen than to live with the fact that i left it in the car and and have to live with the loss of a family member.i dress to conceal you wont see it or me printing. when i do this i never drink not one drop not even to taste someone else's drink. simply because alcohol and gunpowder do not mix just as alcohol and driving dont mix. if i had your concerns on my mind i wouldnt inform their superiors simply because if they work for a sheriffs office they can be terminated if the sheriff doesnt like it. I would simply inform them on their return if they wish to pack heat and drink that you will only serve them something in the likes of a 3 drink max for the night, if they plan to drink more than that then go lock it in the car like everyone else is supposed to do. someone who gets sloppy drunk carrying a firearm becomes a liability. some years ago in either norfolk or newport news 5 either ATF or FBI agents were leaving a bar after indulging in some spirits and something happend in the parking lot in which all of them drew thier weapons but only one employed deadly force. if i remember correctly the one who shot the perp was roughly crucified because apparently the other four didnt see reason to employ deadly force. out of that one might draw a conclusion that sound decisions are not made when under the influience.

 

[BradAnderson]

I am not a LEO.

And clearly you've never pissed one off, or you'd find yourself being arrested for illegal carrying-- as well a any other harassment and retalliation cops are capable of; which is WHY I told him to file an ANONYMOUS tip.

Cops have a way of getting back at those they don't like, so you shouldn't be telling a bouncer with no connections or resources, to mess with them-- particularly since bouncers often need police help, and the cops can always claim to be "conveniently busy" when called to that location.

The Blue Wall is bad enough, but when it FALLS on you, then your life can get really bad.

 

[stumpjumper101]

fileing an anonomous complaint will certainly piss them off for sure and they will surely be able to narrow it down to who they need to retaliate on. simply approaching them with a drink and carry responsably is no different than them asking you john q publc to do the same while when going out to a bar and getting home without driving drunk. in this economy no one needs to have their job in jeapordy over something stupid. I work for a municapality as well and have seen simple complaints generate extreme measures. one grumpy old man once complained to the mayor about the ambulances being at farm fresh and food lion around meal times. the concern was brought to the attention of the fire chief of course, which resulted in suspension of being able to pick up dinner while on duty. we then had to plan our meals a shift in advance and hope that everyone reported to work with their assiged portion of dinner. try getting 8-10 people to agree what they want for lunch and dinner 2 days in advance, its not easy. in the county in which i live i volunteer and one person complained about the ambulance parking in the fire lane while the medic eat lunch at subay in the local walmart. so we now have to park in the back of the parking lot. adding another 90 seconds to our response to any emergency that the other 40,000 citizens may have. 90 seconds could mean life or death in some situations. I hope its not him or his family we get called too. thats what the fire lane is for. that is where that vehicle will be parked if there was an emergency at that location. the point being never go over someones head to the management level to handle a concern until you have tried asking why or expressing your concern. management only knows how to take care of things at an extreme measure by punishing the many for the acts of a few. the officer who shows up in partial uniform to indulge should know betterim sure tahts against department policy. i know i cant even buy alcohol for off duty consumption at home while in uniform on my way home from work. heck i almost got punitive action taken against me because while i was cutting grass at work i picked up a beer can out the ditch and was seen and complaind on by a passerby who thought i was drinking while on duty. i guess i should have taken the trash can out to the ditch and picked it up with a stick instead. whining and complaining to management hurts everybody. i am sorry if you have something against LEO's they are people too just trying to do their job and sometimes just like the rest of us they dont exercise the best of judgement.

 

[BradAnderson]

fileing an anonomous complaint will certainly piss them off for sure and they will surely be able to narrow it down to who they need to retaliate on.

Sure.... starting with everyone in the whole damn bar. You know less about cops than you do about writing legibly in the English language, garbage-man.

 

[stumpjumper101]

Sure.... starting with everyone in the whole damn bar. You know less about cops than you do about writing legibly in the English language, garbage-man.

first thing is you apparently know little about city government. any complaint made annonomous is not a valid complaint. that could just be viewed as someone in which they wrote a ticket trying to return the favor. all the compalints that have been made on our department in confidence, we have been able to find out where it came from in less than 2 shifts. they can do the same i assure you.

second there is no need for name calling! besides this thread is basically over the poster who was asking for advice has'nt chimed in for some time.