LEO Right to disarm legal Concealed Carrier?

[Islander]

The discussion on what folks would do if pulled over when carrying concealed has me wondering in what states the LEO can legally disarm a citizen who is legally carrying a firearm. It is my opinion that unless there is specific language in the law of your state, it is not legal for a LEO to (1) take your weapon or (2) make you unholster or unload or otherwise disarm yourself unless you are being detained.

Personally I think it introduces risk to hand your loaded weapon to a LEO, or even to unholster it yourself while sitting in the vehicle. There is no reason to do it if you aren't being detained. If there is no legal precedent, I’d rather not do it and would at least attempt to convince the officer that it is the safest thing to do. Of course, if I am being detained, that is another question entirely. My contention is that just as I would not be obligated to surrender my shoes, comb, or shirt to the officer, he has no right to demand possession of my firearm without probably cause.

I know in CA they can perform a "safety check" on you gun if you open carry.

I am specifically asking about a simple LEO encounter where you are not breaking any laws (other than perhaps a traffic violation) and are not being detained.

 

[GETMRUTN]

I asked this question on Buckeye Firearms Association. I know in OH you are required to inform the officer first thing that you have a CCW and a weapon. From what I have found out, they are allowed to take the weapon to run it for whatever reason.

I do agree though they should not be allowed to take the weapon unless they have probable cause that a crime has been commited. To me this is just another form of harrassment. I also carry on my person in the truck and when I was pulled over by OSP he asked for my weapon, I asked him how he wanted to get it because I was wearing it and I dont feel comfortable reaching for it to give him a reason to draw on me. That is not cool at all.

If someone has any thing in Black and White that would show otherwise then I think we are screwed and at the mercy of officers who want to give us problems for no reason.

 

[Islander]

I asked this question on Buckeye Firearms Association. I know in OH you are required to inform the officer first thing that you have a CCW and a weapon. From what I have found out, they are allowed to take the weapon to run it for whatever reason.

I do agree though they should not be allowed to take the weapon unless they have probable cause that a crime has been commited. To me this is just another form of harrassment. I also carry on my person in the truck and when I was pulled over by OSP he asked for my weapon, I asked him how he wanted to get it because I was wearing it and I dont feel comfortable reaching for it to give him a reason to draw on me. That is not cool at all.

If someone has any thing in Black and White that would show otherwise then I think we are screwed and at the mercy of officers who want to give us problems for no reason.

Did anyone cite the exact legislation that authorizes this in OH?

BTW, was just up in Dayton on a busiiness trip. I've been a pilot since I was 19 and thought I'd spend three hours I had open before getting to the airport touring the magnificent National Museum of the US Air Force. WOW! I made it through exactly one half of the 3 huge hangers. Amazing!

 

[rsdonb]

In Arizona an officer can take your weapon during the stop for his personal safety and then return it after the stop is over.
My own thoughts, announce your are carrying a concealed weapon, where it is and you have a CCW. This will not stop the officer from taking it but will help ease the tension. If you are legal your legal, if you are not your not. I do hope your state will get to this position. I still have a CCW and always will maybe I am just old and set in my ways.

 

[JSDinTexas]

Check your state's laws

I always refer to the actual law when addressing questions like this, and, respectfully, you should too. I am in Texas and this applies here only. It is Texas Government Code Section 411.027 (a).

GC §411.207. AUTHORITY OF PEACE OFFICER TO DISARM.
(a) A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the
officer's official duties may disarm a license holder at any time the
officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the
license holder, officer, or another individual. The peace officer shall
return the handgun to the license holder before discharging the license
holder from the scene if the officer determines that the license holder
is not a threat to the officer, license holder, or another individual and if
the license holder has not violated any provision of this subchapter or
committed any other violation that results in the arrest of the license
holder.

 

[Islander]

I always refer to the actual law when addressing questions like this, and, respectfully, you should too.

I could not agree more, and that is why I started this thread. So now we have a clear citation of the law in Texas (THANKS!). Hopefully other folks will chime in with their actual laws.

In SC, I do not know of ANY provision that authorizes a LEO to confiscate your weapon or even ask you to unload it for "perceived safety" reasons unless you are being detained. So the common things we hear about LEOs asking people to unload their weapons until the stop is over, hand over their weapons, allow the LEO to disarm them, etc., check weapon serial number, etc., should never happen in SC.

That being said, I'm still reading through our laws. Certainly in our concealed weapon laws absolutely no authority exists. Also, having carefully read Title 17, Chapter 13 (ARREST, PROCESS, SEARCHES AND SEIZURES), I also see nothing that would authorize anything beyond Terry and Hiibel (note the two i's in Hiibel).

That means that in SC, the LEO must have "reasonable suspicion of involvement in criminal activity but short of probable cause to arrest" before he is authorized to have you do anything with your concealed weapon. In fact, you do NOT legally need to inform the LEO you are armed. Per Title 23, Chapter 31, Article 4, you only legally "MUST inform a law enforcement officer of the fact that [you are] a permit holder and present the permit identification card when an officer (1) identifies himself as a law enforcement officer and (2) requests identification or a driver's license from a permit holder."

So, no duty to inform whether or not you are armed. You don't have to say where your gun is, or even whether or not you have one with you in the car at all. You don't have to divulge the caliber, whether it’s loaded, number of rounds, etc. But of course you presented your permit, so the officer can assume you are armed. Otherwise, you have absolutely no reason to present your permit.

I actually have no problem with telling the LEO all about my weapon, that I am carrying, where it is on my person, how many rounds, etc. Not an issue for me. But I have a HUGE issue in either pulling my weapon or allowing the LEO to disarm me without him meeting the Terry criteria. It is unsafe, unnecessary, and unreasonable.

 

[handgonnetoter]

Well, I would let them take the weapon while we were going thru the motions of the traffic stop, but you can damn well bet I had better get it back after that. If not, I would find a real screw-faced lawyer and get rich.

 

[Unfettered Might]

Kentucky, God I love it here!!

KRS 237.104 Rights to acquire, carry, and use deadly weapons not to be impaired during disaster or emergency -- Seizure of deadly weapons during disaster or emergency prohibited -- Application of section.
(1) No person, unit of government, or governmental organization shall, during a period of disaster or emergency as specified in KRS Chapter 39A or at any other time, have the right to revoke, suspend, limit the use of, or otherwise impair the validity of the right of any person to purchase, transfer, loan, own, possess, carry, or use a firearm, firearm part, ammunition, ammunition component, or any deadly weapon or dangerous instrument.
(2) No person, unit of government, or governmental organization shall, during a period of disaster or emergency as specified in KRS Chapter 39A or at any other time, take, seize, confiscate, or impound a firearm, firearm part, ammunition, ammunition component, or any deadly weapon or dangerous instrument from any person.
(3) The provisions of this section shall not apply to the taking of an item specified in subsection (1) or (2) of this section from a person who is:
(a) Forbidden to possess a firearm pursuant to KRS 527.040;
(b) Forbidden to possess a firearm pursuant to federal law;
(c) Violating KRS 527.020;
(d) In possession of a stolen firearm;
(e) Using a firearm in the commission of a separate criminal offense**; or
(f) Using a firearm or other weapon in the commission of an offense under KRS Chapter 150.
Effective: July 12, 2006
History: Created 2006 Ky. Acts ch. 240, sec. 7, effective July 12, 2006.

**so you could be trespassing, commit any kind of traffic violation, even beat someone down with your fists(as long as you were in the right), etc and they still cant disarm you

 

[JSDinTexas]

I think Texas cops are generally more at ease with CC than other states because I read on my TX gun forums where when stopped mostly the officer asks "where it is" and says to "leave it there." TX does require you to inform the officer if you are carrying, but you are not required to produce the firearm (and I would not for safety of all until told to and I want the officer to disarm me).
If not carrying, you are not required by law here to say anything, but their database shows I have a CC license so I would always show my drivers lic, insurance, and CDL at the same time as a "courtesy to the officer". I will admit, I have not been stopped but once in the last 10 years, so don't have personal experience in this.

 

[JSDinTexas]

One last thing, I carry a Glock, hot (chambered) so I would make sure the officer knows this so he keeps his cotton-picking finger off the trigger if I let him disarm me.

 

[NavyLCDR]

My own thoughts, announce your are carrying a concealed weapon, where it is and you have a CCW. This will not stop the officer from taking it but will help ease the tension. If you are legal your legal, if you are not your not. I do hope your state will get to this position. I still have a CCW and always will maybe I am just old and set in my ways.

I am curious as to the "help ease the tension" theory. I have a chronic muscle problem that my foot pressess on the accelerator of my car too much :biggrin: and have gotten stopped 4 times in the last year or so. I have a Washington Concealed Pistol License. During the four stops the firearm was never an issue because I didn't make it an issue. 3 times I never exited the vehicle, the officer did not know or care the firearm was on my belt in a holster, I got 1 ticket out of 3 stops, and we all went our merry way with no tension at all.

The 4th time I was actually asked to step out of the vehicle at the end of the stop. The officer wanted to lecture me about my speeding, but not in front of my family. I open carry, so I got out of the car and went to the back of my vehicle with the officer with my gun plainly visible on my belt in the holster. The officer lectured me, let me go with no ticket, and the firearm was never mentioned or an issue.

When I am stopped I usually have my window rolled down with my had outside the window with my driver's license in hand and the folder with my registration and insurance in my lap. I leave the glove box door open after I get the folder out. After the officer takes my license I retrieve the insurance and registration from the folder on my lap. My chronic muscle condition has caused me to be rather familiar with this procedure :laugh:.

Heck, one time I passed the cop at a well known location for them to be at, realized I didn't take my cruise control off when I entered the reduced speed zone, and just immediately pulled into a side road with my hazard lights on and waited for him. The officer was really nice about that one atsak:

I think many times the firearm only becomes an issue because we bring it up.

 

[Islander]

Kentucky, God I love it here!!

KRS 237.104 Rights to acquire, carry, and use deadly weapons not to be impaired during disaster or emergency -- Seizure of deadly weapons during disaster or emergency prohibited -- Application of section.
(1) No person, unit of government, or governmental organization shall, during a period of disaster or emergency as specified in KRS Chapter 39A or at any other time, have the right to revoke, suspend, limit the use of, or otherwise impair the validity of the right of any person to purchase, transfer, loan, own, possess, carry, or use a firearm, firearm part, ammunition, ammunition component, or any deadly weapon or dangerous instrument.
(2) No person, unit of government, or governmental organization shall, during a period of disaster or emergency as specified in KRS Chapter 39A or at any other time, take, seize, confiscate, or impound a firearm, firearm part, ammunition, ammunition component, or any deadly weapon or dangerous instrument from any person.
(3) The provisions of this section shall not apply to the taking of an item specified in subsection (1) or (2) of this section from a person who is:
(a) Forbidden to possess a firearm pursuant to KRS 527.040;
(b) Forbidden to possess a firearm pursuant to federal law;
(c) Violating KRS 527.020;
(d) In possession of a stolen firearm;
(e) Using a firearm in the commission of a separate criminal offense**; or
(f) Using a firearm or other weapon in the commission of an offense under KRS Chapter 150.
Effective: July 12, 2006
History: Created 2006 Ky. Acts ch. 240, sec. 7, effective July 12, 2006.

**so you could be trespassing, commit any kind of traffic violation, even beat someone down with your fists(as long as you were in the right), etc and they still cant disarm you

SWEET! I'll submit this to my representatives and suggest they add it, as we are subject to huge natural disasters here (hurricanes and earthquakes).

 

[Islander]

One last thing, I carry a Glock, hot (chambered) so I would make sure the officer knows this so he keeps his cotton-picking finger off the trigger if I let him disarm me.

Same here, for all my pistols. Exactly why I will REFUSE to allow the officer to disarm me without detention/arrest. It's a safetly issue that is pretty obvious.

 

[JSDinTexas]

Same here, for all my pistols. Exactly why I will REFUSE to allow the officer to disarm me without detention/arrest. It's a safetly issue that is pretty obvious.

Well yeah, I understand your point, but I don't want to elevate the situation by refusal or lack of cooperation - the first thing a cop is trained to do is control the situation, and I want to allow him to do that. But I won't let anyone touch my firearm, except a cop in the stop, and don't really trust cops to exercise proper gun discipline, just hope they have some sense. Like I said, just opinion since I have not been stopped in a long time.

 

[Military Man]

Haved been stopped twice for speeding. Once in Colorado and in Texas. Was not carrying that time in Texas because I was coming from a military base. Both times I produced my permit along with my license. The officer in Colorado did not say anything, so I didn't. Told Texas I was not carrying at the time since I was coming from a military base. I was lucky, did not get a ticket

 

[Islander]

Well yeah, I understand your point, but I don't want to elevate the situation by refusal or lack of cooperation - the first thing a cop is trained to do is control the situation, and I want to allow him to do that. But I won't let anyone touch my firearm, except a cop in the stop, and don't really trust cops to exercise proper gun discipline, just hope they have some sense. Like I said, just opinion since I have not been stopped in a long time.

Now that I think about it, I probably would strongly urge and cajole the officer to reconsider, letting him know that he has no legal authority to disarm me, and then turn over my gun if he escalated, cause I'm not going to get shot for being in the right. I'll write a letter afterword.

Now, back to sending in that state law language for this thread!

 

[JSDinTexas]

Now that I think about it, I probably would strongly urge and cajole the officer to reconsider, letting him know that he has no legal authority to disarm me, and then turn over my gun if he escalated, cause I'm not going to get shot for being in the right. I'll write a letter afterword.

Now, back to sending in that state law language for this thread!

Glad to hear it, want to keep reading your good posts.

 

[Old Irishman]

Hi All,

New to the forum, my question is if you are pulled over for whatever reason, the officer first off calls your tag number in, wouldn't he know then you are CCW

 

[Islander]

Hi All,

New to the forum, my question is if you are pulled over for whatever reason, the officer first off calls your tag number in, wouldn't he know then you are CCW

One would think, but would need to verify. The state would need to coordinate, sometimes between agencies. For example, in FL licenses are issued by Florida Department of Agriculture.

I think in SC that by showing our permit we are actually informing that we are armed, without having to say so. No worries about saying things like "I have a gun", etc. No other reason to show your permit in SC. If they wrote the law that way on purpose, it's really ingenious!

 

[NavyLCDR]

Hi All,

New to the forum, my question is if you are pulled over for whatever reason, the officer first off calls your tag number in, wouldn't he know then you are CCW

Depends entirely upon the state and how they have their permit system set up.