LEO Backup by CCW Carrier?

[juknelis]

I've been carrying for over five years, and I encountered a situation for the first time on which I'd like some feedback, particularly from law enforcement personnel.

While driving home I was passed by a State Trooper (flashing lights...no siren), when he pulled over a vehicle three cars ahead. The road is narrow, so all traffic nearly came to a halt.

The trooper exited his vehicle and approached the stopped car with gun drawn(!). After carefully observing the driver, the Trooper aimed his weapon at the driver and began shouting orders.

Our community has had a rash of home invasions and holdups of several merchants over the last few weeks.

My question...as a CCW carrier, what, if any, should my role have been? Pull over and observe the encounter in case another weapon is needed? Announce to the Trooper that I "had his back"? Slowly move my vehicle around the encounter and keep going (my ultimate action)?

 

[Raider-3]

Let him just do his job. He's not going to want your help. And if your not a sworn leo, you may not help the case if they persue charges

 

[Raider-3]

He is also not going to have time to verify who you are when he has his gun drawn at different situation

 

[The_Outlaw]

It all depends...No two situations are ever the same.
If I had my family in the vehicle with me, I would probably just keep on driving and mind my own business.

If I was alone and I had the 'gut feeling' to observe from a safe distance, then I would do so.
If I saw the officer in serious danger, I would back him/her up accordingly;
a)Call 911
b)Report the situation.
c)Assist the Officer 'as needed'.

 

[longslide10]

I've been carrying for over five years, and I encountered a situation for the first time on which I'd like some feedback, particularly from law enforcement personnel.

While driving home I was passed by a State Trooper (flashing lights...no siren), when he pulled over a vehicle three cars ahead. The road is narrow, so all traffic nearly came to a halt.

The trooper exited his vehicle and approached the stopped car with gun drawn(!). After carefully observing the driver, the Trooper aimed his weapon at the driver and began shouting orders.

Our community has had a rash of home invasions and holdups of several merchants over the last few weeks.

My question...as a CCW carrier, what, if any, should my role have been? Pull over and observe the encounter in case another weapon is needed? Announce to the Trooper that I "had his back"? Slowly move my vehicle around the encounter and keep going (my ultimate action)?

Probably be a silent observer would be the best bet or you could face some interference law unless the occifer was shot / shot at and outgunnned then it might be appropriate to intervene but with extreme caution. I don't think as a CCW holder we are expected to assist in dangerous situations unless you have extensive training that could be utilized. Just my opinion

 

[CharonPDX]

Your role was to be a gawker. Your role, should shooting have started between the officer and the person he pulled over, would have been to seek safety. Your role, should the officer have fallen and the suspect drove away, would have been to call 911, report what happened, and potentially provide first aid. Your role, had the officer fallen and the suspect came to your car to carjack it and take it from you, then - ONLY THEN - would your role have included drawing your weapon.

As others have said, approaching an officer while he is dealing with another situation that has him drawing his gun is a sure way to get yourself shot. The officer doesn't have time to verify your identity or intentions.

 

[JJW]

Well stated CharonPDX. If that situation, in the officers opinion, requires that he draw his weapon, the last thing he needs is for soneone, or something, to distract him for even a second. While setting you should observe, maybe write down a license number or occupant(s) description. Anything that might prove useful shpould the situation turn ugly. And thanks for asking.

 

[SGB]

Just keep on about your business

 

[The_Outlaw]

I remember seeing a video somewhere that showed an armed citizen (freelance cameraman) assisting an officer who was being wrestled to the ground and overpowered by a suspect. The armed citizen layed his camera down (still filming) then he drew his weapon (appeared to be a 1911) and ordered the large attacker off of the officer.
The officer was then able to regain control of the suspect. It was awesome. I am trying to find it on Youtube, but no luck.

 

[Semper]

Good question, tough to answer. As former law enforcement, I generally agree with The_Outlaw's response. One would think if the officer, as he exits his vehicle, has already decided drawing his weapon is appropriate, he has most likely called for back-up that's on the way. The only time for an armed good-guy private citizen to take action would be as an absolute last resort if leo or innocent lives are in imminent danger and then, know the chances of things going all kinds of wrong are pretty good, and maybe be screaming something to make it clear you are the good guy. Probably not, "I'm Batman, I'm Batman", which brings up another question. What do you all think might be the best way to let present or arriving leos know you're on their side?

 

[Rich_S]

I only know of one incident where this actually happened.

Bode Miller

Believe it or not here's a video of the incident:

It's tough to get involved considering what could go wrong. As stated, how do LEO's arriving on the scene know you're on their side?

 

[Rich_S]

I actually do remember another one now. Here's one situation where you absolutely get involved.....

Link Removed

 

[Bighouse Doc]

I just can see the news headlines:

"Idiot bystander with gun shot by cops partner."

"Civilian with gun, playing cop arrested"

Mall-Ninja-Cop-pretend-wannabee killed by officers after drawing weapon during traffic stop."

"Bystander interferes with traffic stop-gets arrested."

"Fugitive escapes as cops deals with armed bystander."

"Bystander arrested. Charged with pulling gun on officer."

It seems we have a brand new troll in our midst!

-Doc

 

[Deserteagle]

I admire your willingness to help out other people, but you are going to take a lot of flak from the anti-cops for posting this.

Only in rare circumstances would a cop need help from a citizen, but it does happen. Ive talked to a cop who was overpowered by a bad guy and luckily a truck full of firefighters drove over and jumped on the bad guy.

Your CCW permit does not grant you any authority, so don't get in their way. But, if I saw a LEO with 2 bad guys on top of him beating the crap out of him, there is no doubt I would help the LEO.

Now that I think about it, a week or 2 ago there was a state trooper who was overpowered by a guy here in CO. A former inmate drove by and saw the state trooper losing the fight. The former inmate recognized the trooper as one of the jail officers that had treated him with respect, and he felt it in his heart to show some respect for the trooper and help him out. Former inmate helped arrest the bad guy.

 

[Tucker's Mom]

I admire your willingness to help out other people, but you are going to take a lot of flak from the anti-cops for posting this.

Only in rare circumstances would a cop need help from a citizen, but it does happen. Ive talked to a cop who was overpowered by a bad guy and luckily a truck full of firefighters drove over and jumped on the bad guy.

Your CCW permit does not grant you any authority, so don't get in their way. But, if I saw a LEO with 2 bad guys on top of him beating the crap out of him, there is no doubt I would help the LEO.

Now that I think about it, a week or 2 ago there was a state trooper who was overpowered by a guy here in CO. A former inmate drove by and saw the state trooper losing the fight. The former inmate recognized the trooper as one of the jail officers that had treated him with respect, and he felt it in his heart to show some respect for the trooper and help him out. Former inmate helped arrest the bad guy.

That was nice...what goes around, comes around...you'll never know.

 

[Wyldekard]

I am not a lawyer but the problem I see is, even if you're doing the right thing morally, the trouble you will get in will probably cost you everything you have. Your CCW permit does not, in any situation, give you the authority, right, or responsibility to be an "aggressor" that I know of. You are only allowed by any law I'm aware of to defend yourself, your family, or your property. If you have to shoot the criminal, then you become the criminal. If you just hold him at gunpoint, he's going to need a lawyer anyhow and going after you will just be part of the lawyer's job.

It's not morally right because if the Trooper needs help and you are the only one who is in a position to provide help I think you should be able to, but laws don't usually have all that much to do with real justice in a lot of instances. Plus, like others have pointed out, you could end up shot and/or dead if the only way to tell the good guys from the bad at the time is a uniform.

 

[kelcarry]

With all due respect Juk, even the thought that you were thinking this is ridiculous, as some of the replies have indicated for several reasons. You are CC to effectively protect yourself if you are in imminent danger---period/end of story; you are not CC to protect anyone but yourself (or your family or friends). Why in G-d's name would you even have to ask this question? Alter Ego rules could apply, however, but even there the problem is that you can never be sure of what is really going on and plunging into the scenario can cause a very bad ending for you. Again, I apologize for blunt answer--I'm old and cranky--but I really found you even thinking this to be a real "head shaker". I'm sorry

 

[Panheadzz]

I believe when I read the NY penal code on justified self defense there are references to assisting law enforcement. To my recollection it is justified in NY to assist. I am not saying it is a smart thing to do however.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I believe when I read the NY penal code on justified self defense there are references to assisting law enforcement. To my recollection it is justified in NY to assist. I am not saying it is a smart thing to do however.

Might want to read that code closely. It is New York statute 35.15 of the Penal Code:

§ 35.15 Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person.
2. A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person
under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:
(a) The actor reasonably believes that such other person is using or
about to use deadly physical force. Even in such case, however, the
actor may not use deadly physical force if he or she knows that with
complete personal safety, to oneself and others he or she may avoid the
necessity of so doing by retreating; except that the actor is under no
duty to retreat if he or she is:
(i) in his or her dwelling and not the initial aggressor; or
(ii) a police officer or peace officer or a person assisting a police
officer or a peace officer at the latter's direction, acting pursuant to
section 35.30;

The highlighted part means that the officer must direct you to help them, otherwise you must exercise your duty to retreat first. (in New York). Applying this to the OP's question, his DUTY as a CCW holder in New York would be to retreat, unless directed to do otherwise by the police officer.

 

[Treo]

I remember an episode of COPS where two female police were sent to a bar disturbence in PA. This was in the days before tazers and the guy they were trying to arrest wasn't having any. He was standing at a pool table and they were trying to put his arms behind his back, he wasn't violent he just wouldn't bend his arms. Finally, a couple of big, biker types walked over, grabbed the guys arms and held them behind his back while the cops handcuffed him.

It was kind of funny.