Keeping A Receipt To Cover Your @ss?

[Samefly]

thought I'd share this invoice/receipt I made when buying/selling/trading firearms. I read that it was good to get basic info from the person you're doing business with to cover your @ss when it comes to getting/selling second hand. Just keep it in your records to prove who you sold/bought the firearm to/from and when.

What do you do when you make trades with someone?

 

[chiefpropellerhead]

this makes excellent sense. WTG

 

[B2Tall]

I've bought and sold a number of guns in private sales. I insist on photocopying IDs and if available I'll have a witness sign the receipt as well. Everyone involved gets copies. I scan everything into my computer and then put the hard copies in a firebox that's in my gun safe. I will not be caught without a receipt.

 

[kelcarry]

Your receipt should also include some form of official ID--be it driver's license number or CCWP number. The receipt should also attest to the fact that based on the signatures both buyer and seller are legal residents of said state(s) and meet all legal requirements for buying/selling said firearm.

 

[Treo]

I've bought and sold a number of guns in private sales. I insist on photocopying IDs and if available I'll have a witness sign the receipt as well. Everyone involved gets copies. I scan everything into my computer and then put the hard copies in a firebox that's in my gun safe. I will not be caught without a receipt.

If I don't know you I am sure as Hell not giving you a copy of my ID. In Colorado private sales are unregulated, you can't sell to someone you know is an out of state resident or a prohibited person. you give me the cash I give you the gun, done deal.

I think this whole going above and beyond the law is a Fudd trick and I won't do it. If the police show up on my door step looking for a particular gun I ask for a warrant and an attorney

 

[B2Tall]

If I don't know you I am sure as Hell not giving you a copy of my ID.

I respect your right to privacy, but I wouldn't sell you a gun w/o some sort of photo ID.

In Colorado private sales are unregulated, you can't sell to someone you know is an out of state resident or a prohibited person. you give me the cash I give you the gun, done deal.I think this whole going above and beyond the law is a Fudd trick and I won't do it. If the police show up on my door step looking for a particular gun I ask for a warrant and an attorney

You wouldn't just tell them you sold it?? You wouldn't want to just be able to hand them a slip of paper and say "go talk to him"?? So you would rather risk bringing heat on yourself in a situation that is 99.9999999% probably just the police trying to track a gun that was used in a crime (and catch a BG) and NOT some government conspiracy?? You realize that in such a case you'd probably be protecting a criminal. Oh well, to each his own......

 

[Treo]

What bothers me about this whole concept is that it adds extra legal restrictions on firearms sales. If your state legislature doesn't think this is necessary why do you? The Brady bunch thinks this is a wonderful idea and anything they think is good is not something I want to do.

According to the DOJ/FBI less than 3% of guns used in crime are purchased at a gun show or legal private sale. So, the odds are only 3 in 100 that Tyrone the Thuggg4life is going to come to your house and pay 800$ for your duck gun as opposed to giving his dope man 50$ for a used Jimenez (That he thinks is a Glock).

In the unlikely event that you do sell a gun that some Yo-Yo uses to knock off a 7-11 your best bet is to tell them you sold the gun X days/weeks/months ago and refer all further questions to an attorney whether you have a receipt or not.

Finally, as I said earlier, I don’t know you I am certainly not going to let you photocopy my Dl or other ID (can you say “identity theft” boys and girls? I knew you could).

If you are that worried why not just do the transfer through an FFL

 

[NavyLCDR]

I've done exactly the same thing as in the OP, EXCEPT no driver's license number recording. A receipt for a gun transaction is no different than a receipt for buying a candy bar at the store.... it simply show's that goods were delivered and accepted by the buyer, and it shows that the money or other compensation was received and accepted by the seller. It's a smart BUSINESS thing to do, and the fact that a gun is involved has nothing to do with that.

Copying driver's license/CPL information? No way. I refuse to do it as a buyer and a seller, and I have been both.

I've lost the receipts for my firearms transactions - usually within about a week...

 

[B2Tall]

What bothers me about this whole concept is that it adds extra legal restrictions on firearms sales. If your state legislature doesn't think this is necessary why do you?

There's a difference between doing the bare minimum and going a bit further to cover your rear.

I don't care what form of ID it is as long as it has a name and a picture....DL, CCW, work ID, library card, etc. and if someone wanted to scratch out the address and/or some relevant numbers, that would be fine by me as well.

Most states (including mine) prohibit the transfer of a firearm to someone under the age of 18 so in many cases you'd have a legal obligation to confirm their age (working in the bar/nightclub industry I've checked about a gazillion IDs and I've seen plenty of 16 yr olds who look 25).

I guess I'm just naive enough to believe that if a LEO came to my door asking about a gun that I used to own, he/she would be doing so in order to solve a crime and catch a BG and not as some part of big government conspiracy to track and seize my firearms.

 

[B2Tall]

According to the DOJ/FBI less than 3% of guns used in crime are purchased at a gun show or legal private sale. So, the odds are only 3 in 100 that Tyrone the Thuggg4life is going to come to your house and pay 800$ for your duck gun as opposed to giving his dope man 50$ for a used Jimenez (That he thinks is a Glock).

Once that gun leaves my hands I have no control over who carries it, what they use it for, or who they give it to. But if I bought it from an FFL (as I have most of the time) it can still be traced back to me. I've sold guns to complete strangers on a couple of occasions. Nobody had a problem with showing me their ID or with me copying their DL# at the very least. If they did have an issue then I'd tell them to have a nice day and I'd sell it to the next person. Guns are popular and there's no shortage of buyers.

With regards to your $50 street-gun assertaion, they might be a little harder to find than you think. If it was that easy then you wouldn't have so many attempts at straw purchases, especially at gun shows. I know several FFLs and they tell me that they frequently deny gun purchases because they believe it's a straw buy.

 

[DavidH1]

I use a similar form.
Link Removed

 

[Treo]

There's a difference between doing the bare minimum and going a bit further to cover your rear.

No argument there

I don't care what form of ID it is as long as it has a name and a picture....DL, CCW, work ID, library card, etc. and if someone wanted to scratch out the address and/or some relevant numbers, that would be fine by me as well.

Show you ID yes, let you photo copy it no I'll get a gun somewhere else

Most states (including mine) prohibit the transfer of a firearm to someone under the age of 18 so in many cases you'd have a legal obligation to confirm their age (working in the bar/nightclub industry I've checked about a gazillion IDs and I've seen plenty of 16 yr olds who look 25).

In Colorado I can't sell to someone I knowcan't legally buy the firearm. There's nothing in the law requiring me to check.

I guess I'm just naive enough to believe that if a LEO came to my door asking about a gun that I used to own, he/she would be doing so in order to solve a crime and catch a BG and not as some part of big government conspiracy to track and seize my firearms.

Who said anything about a government conspiracy? I naive enough to believe that if the police come to my door asking about a gun I used to own I'm the suspect. Thanks all the same officer you can speak to my lawyer.

 

[kelcarry]

Some members have a real problem with showing an ID. Fine--don't show me an ID, do not expect me to buy or sell a gun from or to you. At least you guys are consistent in your thinking--I'll give you that. I understand what you are saying but I am shaking my head anyway

 

[Treo]

Some members have a real problem with showing an ID.

I have no problem showing you an ID but you aren't going to photo copy it. I don't even mind a receipt but it will not have anything on it but my signature. No DL, no address sure as hell not an SSN. if you want the make model and serial number of the gun as well fine.

 

[Iam2Taz]

I have made a small receipt. I sold xyz gun - Serial number xxxx to Billy Bob. I sign it. Billy signs it. We each get a copy. As long as I see an ID (Drivers License) so I know you are Billy Bob and am convinced you aren't a convict, we are good to go. Billy can see my ID too.

We each have a receipt. I see no reason for more info.

 

[B2Tall]

In Colorado I can't sell to someone I knowcan't legally buy the firearm. There's nothing in the law requiring me to check.

Really? Sure....there's no law "requiring" you to check...but what do you think'll happen if you sell to a 16 yr old?? You wouldn't ask for ID if you thought you were dealing with an underage buyer?? Do you really think the whole "out-of-sight-out-of-mind" mentality is gonna fly when the cops come looking for you?? It doesn't work with statuatory rape and it doesn't work with gun sales. I can just see it now as you're being led away in cuffs...."Well he looked old enough!!", and then you can tell everyone how you were falsely arrested and you did nothing wrong. I'm pretty sure it's your responsibility to make sure you're selling to an of-age person. Not bothering to confirm a buyer's age doesn't excuse you of that responsibility.

Who said anything about a government conspiracy? I naive enough to believe that if the police come to my door asking about a gun I used to own I'm the suspect. Thanks all the same officer you can speak to my lawyer.

As in a previous thread, you can go ahead and "lawyer-up" and remain a suspect while I'll hand them a receipt with the buyer's (confirmed) name and signature on it, and my name will get scratched off the suspect list. But then again I won't have the deep satisfaction of knowing that my refusal to cooperate with the oppressive, Nazi-like LEOs will make their job of catching a BG just that much harder. If I ever decide to commit armed robbery, I know who to buy the gun from. I'll sleep better knowing that you'll have my back when the cops are trying to catch me.

I've told other cop-haters that I truly hope that if it was them or a member of their family who'd been the victim of a crime, that any potential witnesses or people with pertinent info with regards to the case don't clam-up like they (i.e. you) would when the LEOs come asking questions. "I sold the gun and don't have to tell you anything else" is a pretty crappy answer, especially to a victim or victim's family.

 

[Samefly]

here's what I posted in another forum:

The purpose to me, and from what I read, is to show who I bought/sold to and when I sold/bought it. I sell a firearm to a seemingly normal & rational person who might not be planning to heist a bank but they may end up having a very abnormal and irrational moment somewhere down the line (get mad at a spouse, mad at life, road rage, whatever). Should that unlikely event happen I want to be able to show that I sold that firearm legally, had no reason to believe this person was a nut, and no involvement after the date on that receipt.

I also want some kind of proof that I bought it legitimately should law enforcement ever question me about my firearm, if it's stolen while I own it, for my own records, and also for insurance purposes. It is perfectly within your right to not want to show me ID or sign anything. It's also in my right (and best interest) to not deal with buying or selling to anyone that doesn't feel they need to do that. To each his own. Going to court or being questioned by LEOs isn't always enjoyable. I'm not a lawyer in any shape, form, or fashion but I imagine not having any proof could make that even less enjoyable.

Maybe writing down the ID# is a bit much for some concerned about identity theft but if you won't even show me ID than I've got concerns. The best way to show me you're a legal resident of the State is just show me a State ID. Everything else I'll take on good faith. But I'll definitely need a receipt.

And to anyone that thinks it's silly to CYA in legal matters... I mean... really? Lawsuits and being wrongly accused seem WAY more commonplace then shoot outs in this modern day society. Someone becomes a millionaire from being dumb enough to not realize fresh coffee is hot and another person loses their job for defending their self from being killed/shot at work. If I'm willing to buy a firearm to CMA than having proof of a legitimate purchase shouldn't be too much to do.

With all that said and done in the end = To Each His Own. I just wanted to share something I thought would help those interested. That's my buck fifty anyway.

 

[kelcarry]

If I see an ID, be it a drivers license or a CCWP, and the picture matches up with the person I am dealing with, I might just add a sentence that attest to the fact the buyer is indeed the person he identifies himself to be--I would think that is due dilegence on my part. I have only sold one firearm and, in conversations with the individual, who did not mind writing his CCWP ID number on my receipt as I did, he was local, our conversation was friendly and our discussion convinced me that he is who he says he is. Selling to someone who gives out bad "vibes" and refuses to show any kind of ID is not going to get a firearm that has me listed with SC law enforcement as the listed owner. I would rather be safe than sorry. The idea that the sale of a firearm is akin to me selling a teddy bear at a garage sale is ridiculous and, IMO, a pox on the system that will lead, under the current fascist leadership in this government, to regulations that will lead to controls that none of us will like or want to live by.

 

[Treo]

As in a previous thread, you can go ahead and "lawyer-up" and remain a suspect while I'll hand them Documented proof that I provided the gun that Enrique-the-meth-head used to knock off Bob's liquor and get myself a whole new set of problems to deal w/.

There, fixed it for you. If my name becomes any part of a criminal investigation you bet your ass I'm going to get a lawyer.

Again, if you are that worried that you are about to sell your fuddgun to one of the 3 out 100 criminals who purchase their firearms in a legal ( by definition illegal) private sale why not do the transfer through an FFL?

 

[Treo]

(IMO) there are two issues here, I understand the value of a bill of sale for a weapon that I purchase or a receipt for a weapon that I sell, especially a receipt that states that the sale was “as is” and w/out warranty. That’s just good business, you’re still not going to photo copy my ID but I understand the concept.

The problem is that every time this issue comes up some Fudd jumps in and states something like “I won’t sell any gun unless I see a CHP, because then I know the person is legal” or some such statement. Usually it’s the same Yo-Yo that cannot wait to inform some cop that he’s a “Legal concealed carrying sheep dawg.” This I object to on principle.

If I sell B2tall a gun and he goes and knocks over the Waffle House w/ it do you think the Broward County Sherriff is going to buy my non-notarized Microsoft Word receipt when I hand it to him or am I handing him a perfect chance to tie me to crime because I provided the gun? If the police show up on my door asking questions about any crime I’m going to direct them to my lawyer. Think I’m out there paranoid? Google Richard Jewel.