Judicious Use Of Deadly Force
- Thread starter eagleeyes
- Start date
OngoingFreedom
New member
By what standard do you judge this by?
OngoingFreedom
New member
So you, who never served in the military or as a LEO are offended by this, to the point you throw his whole lecture under this judgement? You seem a bit sensitive.
OngoingFreedom
New member
I will assume you're not a secret squirrel but are telling the truth and thank you for your service to our country.
Point 1. It is a mystery to me that one who spent time as a soldier AND as a cop could not see Mas as a product of his environment, with the use of vulgarisms, yet your initial post centered on this point as a summary of your opinion of the lecture.
Point 2. I don't know where he gave this lecture but in speech class I was taught to consider my audience. Who Mas was speaking to possibly affected how coarse he chose to be.
Point 3. To say Mas is an expert in the field is an understatement. Couple this with his prolific history in an area we all hold in high regard yields in us (I would assume) an automatic high respect.
I found offense in those certain words but as I consider the totality of who Mas is and what he is trying to accomplish "unprofessional" is not the impression I'm left with. That's why I wanted to know what you meant. Understanding the why is interesting to me, because there is always history behind a why. I assumed you have been in neither field because both are cultures in which vulgarity has such a presence that one reaches a point where it is hardly noticed anymore, yet that one phrase was your sum impression.
Ayoob can pose all he wants, but his pompous insistence that he’s correct in all but one minor detail regarding the FBI-Miami shootout is easily discredited by simple fact checking of sources he claims to have thoroughly consulted:
Ayoob Claim False:
“Silvertip .357 is authorized by the Bureau only for special circumstances, and it is believed that supervisor McNeill’s 2½" Combat Magnum was so charged.” (p. 193)
"[Mireles] was able to clearly distinguish between what he described as the popping sound of agents’ 9mms and .38s, the bang of McNeill’s .357 Magnum rounds, and the ‘psychologically devastating ka-boom’ of Platt’s .223 rifle." (p. 220)
Discredited By
Anecdotal report not substantiated by forensic evidence
FBI records show McNeill fired 6 rounds Winchester .38 Special +P 158gr LSWCHP from his S&W M19-3, .357 Magnum revolver. In addition, three .38 Special +P cartridges were loaded in the chamber of his revolver when it was recovered and examined. Finally, inventory of McNeill’s car, Buick LeSabre, license 516-DTK, revealed no Winchester .357 Magnum 145gr STHP ammunition within:
• http://foia.fbi.gov/shooting/shooting1a.pdf
(Adobe Reader pp. 66 & 67)
• Link Removed
(Adobe Reader pp. 18 & 19)
• http://foia.fbi.gov/shooting/shooting1a.pdf
(Adobe Reader p. 61)
Metro-Dade PD records show nine .38 Special “casings” found at rear of McNeill’s car:
Rivers, David, Sgt., Metro-Dade Police Dept: “Weapons Found at Scene.” (Forensic Analysis, Plate B, p. 8)
Neither McNeill nor Mireles dispute Anderson’s statement, “6 rounds (38+P) fired,” (Forensic Analysis, pp. 13, 112-114, 119-127)
Ayoob Claim False:
“Meanwhile, Matix has squeezed out the driver’s door of the wrecked getaway car, and he unleashes a blast of 00 buckshot at Grogan and Dove to pin them down.” (p. 199)
Discredited By
FBI records show that Matix’s shotgun was loaded with Winchester #6 birdshot:
http://foia.fbi.gov/shooting/shooting1a.pdf (Adobe Reader pp. 66 & 67)
FBI records show spent #6 birdshot recovered from Grogan/Dove’s vehicle:
http://foia.fbi.gov/shooting/shooting1a.pdf (Adobe Reader p. 57)
Ayoob Claim False:
“The buckshot has smashed into [Platt’s] face... but it has come in from a side angle, and no pellet has reached his brain.” (p. 202)
Discredited By
No evidence that buckshot "smashed into Platt's face." Autopsy report (Forensic Analysis, pp. 97-105):
Case No. 86-0969: autopsy report for PLATT, Michael L., prepared by Jay S. Barnhart, Jr, M.D., Associate Medical Examiner, Dade County Medical Examiner, dated 25 April 1986, 8 pages.
Ayoob Claim False:
"Mireles’ fourth blast and his fifth, blows out the windshield of the Buick. Matix twists in agony as he is hit by the pellets.” (p. 203)
Discredited By
No evidence that Matix was hit by any buckshot. Autopsy report (Forensic Analysis, pp. 90-96):
Case No. 86-0968: autopsy report for MATIX, William, prepared by Jay S. Barnhart, Jr, M.D., Associate Medical Examiner, Dade County Medical Examiner, dated 25 April 1986, 7 pages.
Ayoob Claim False:
“And behind the wheel, his face a bloody mask...." (p. 203)
Discredited By
Crime scene photo (Forensic Analysis, Plate IV-F, p. 84) of Platt’s body laying on ground, face up, does not agree with Ayoob’s dramatic, fabricated description
Ayoob Claim False:
"[Mireles] concentrates on the face of the copkiller at the end of the tunnel, and on his front sight, and even in broad daylight there is the flash as the Federal 158 grain lead hollowpoint .38 slug roars from the barrel of his gun and into the brain of the murderer Platt." (p. 204)
Discredited By
Autopsy report
Autopsy x-ray (Forensic Analysis, Figure IV-4, p. 71) of Platt’s head shows no projectiles penetrated the brain
FBI records show that Mireles’ revolver was loaded with Winchester ammunition:
http://foia.fbi.gov/shooting/shooting1a.pdf
(Adobe Reader pp. 66 & 67)
Ayoob Claim False:
"[McNeill] adds that he learned later that both Matix’ eardrums had been ruptured by his partner’s gunfire. (p. 214)
Discredited By
Anecdotal report not substantiated by forensic evidence
Autopsy report: examination revealed no evidence of Matix having suffered ruptured eardrums:
EXTERNAL EXAMINATION:…No blood is in the ear canals. The conjunctivae have no petechiae and the irides are blue and the pupils are round and equal and 4 millimeters in diameter….
Ayoob Claim False:
“[Mireles’] first shot had mangled the foot of the cop-killer, and the last three rounds of 12-pellet 00-buck smashed into Platt’s maxillofacial structure and also tore into the face of Matix. One pellet entered Matix’ brain." (p. 221)
Discredited By
Autopsy reports
Autopsy x-ray (Forensic Analysis, Figure IV-4, p. 71) of Platt’s head shows no projectiles having collided with or damaged the maxillofacial structure
Autopsy x-ray (Forensic Analysis, Figure IV-17, p. 76) of Matix’s head shows no projectiles penetrated the brain
Ayoob Claim False:
"...Dove fired 27 pistol shots and scored only one hit, and Grogan fired close to 20 with no hits." (p. 222)
Discredited By
FBI records show that Dove fired 20 rounds; Grogan fired nine:
• Link Removed
(Adobe Reader pp. 18)
• http://foia.fbi.gov/shooting/shooting1a.pdf
(Adobe Reader pp. 66 & 67)
Ayoob seems to think I’ve read his book, The Ayoob Files. He shouldn’t flatter himself. I merely verified photocopies of two FBI Miami shootout chapters taken from his book, that were provided to me by another person, to ensure the book was consistent with the magazine articles. I critiqued the reports presented in the book because it appeared to me, at the time, that it would be easier for interested readers to get hold of his book than two aging magazine articles. I have no reason to believe any given shooting incident report or “stopping power” claim Ayoob makes is true, as I shall continue to show.
________________________________________
Where’s the Brain?
In 1993, American Handgunner published Ayoob’s acrimonious reply to a letter from Martin L. Fackler, M.D., in which Fackler challenged assertions made by Ayoob in an article he'd written about the JFK assassination. Among several questionable claims, Ayoob’s conclusion is particularly worthy of scrutiny:
"…the head shot in frame 313 of the Zapruder film is totally incongruous with what the 6.5 Carcano ball round is known to do."
-Ayoob, Massad: "Where's the Brain." American Handgunner, 17(105): July/August 1993; pp. 12, 15.
Ayoob’s declaration is absolutely untrue.
Ayoob is obviously conversant with Lattimer’s 1980 book; in his reply to Fackler he's able to cite information buried in a single sentence on page 271. Yet Lattimer’s Figure 91, Skull Bullets,10 not only proves Ayoob wrong it exemplifies the shameless extent of his blatant dishonesty. (It appears Ayoob knew few of his readers had access to an obscure, out of print book; and of those that did, there was no mass media means to reveal his deceit. In addition, his status with the popular gun press ensured he would have the last word in replying to any criticism. However with the arrival of the Internet there are no more secrets; valid and verifiable evidence to challenge and expose misinformation can now be easily presented to a mass audience. It is no longer possible to hide behind editors and exploit limitations of the print media to betray unsuspecting readers for the purpose of protecting one's own ego and importance.)
In response to Ayoob’s nonsense, Lattimer published a detailed summary of the findings reported in his book. I present an extract from his summary, which appears after the References/Endnotes section of this reply, that describes the mechanics of JFK’s fatal head wound. (The information presented in the extract also appears in Lattimer’s book, Kennedy and Lincoln: Medical and Ballistic Comparisons of their Assassinations, albeit in a less concise format.)
In a situation that bears striking similarity to his unscrupulous Hansen testimony, an earlier magazine article comes back to bite Ayoob in the ass. Five months prior to "Where's the Brain?” Ayoob published the following:
Modern formulations of ballistic gelatin based on Fackler’s formula are extremely convenient for the experimenter, and they do indeed simulate the resistance to a bullet that would occur in the muscle tissue of a pig, which in turn closely replicates the muscle tissue of a man. Unfortunately, there are also shortcomings.
We do not shoot at the muscles. We shoot at the internal organs and do so through various intervening bodily structures. One problem with gelatin is that it is homogeneous and gives the bullet a smoothly consistent resistance throughout its path that will not occur in the human body.
The mammalian body is heterogeneous. In a tiny fraction of a second, the bullet goes through stretchy epidermis [sic], then the fibrous elasticity of muscle tissue, then perhaps the plastic density of a solid abdominal organ like the liver or spleen, and along the way it may have crashed through rigid resistance of bone. Each of these obstacles offers a different resistance to the bullet than does any homogeneous medium, and this can drastically alter the performance of the projectile in terms of both deceleration and deformation, thus radically altering the degree and the profile of the tissue damage that will now be caused. [emphasis added]
These variables need to be considered. They aren’t found in gelatin. They are found in medical reports of surviving gunshot victims and in the autopsy protocols conducted upon those who did not survive. Combined with involved personnel’s observations of exactly what the individual did immediately after being shot, we have the “anecdotal” data relied upon by Marshall and his followers. [emphasis added]
-Ayoob, Massad: “Stopping Power: A Look at the Current Controversy.” Handguns, February 1993; pp. 28–32, 87.
Thus, in February’s Handguns, Ayoob carefully explains several "shortcomings" of ordnance gelatin testing, but in the July/August issue of American Handgunner, Ayoob disingenuously contradicts himself; a block of gelatin is now so flawless it proves JFK wasn’t shot in the head with a 6.5mm Carcano bullet! In pathetic effort to present the appearance of winning a debate (which is apparently more important to Ayoob than the truth) he deceitfully attempts to misrepresent Fackler’s wound profile:
"Dr. Fackler’s suggestion is incongruous in that it is completely refuted and contradicted by his own earlier work….
"Fackler’s workup of the 6.5mm Carcano roundnose bullet indicates that it will penetrate 106cm (41+”) of flesh simulant…."
-(see Ayoob: "Where's the Brain.")
Indeed, one cannot dispute that Fackler’s wound profile illustration shows that the 6.5mm Carcano FMJ bullet produces minimal soft tissue disruption. However as shown by Lattimer, its performance in the JFK head wound is entirely consistent with a rifle bullet that strikes bone early in its wound path: it fragmented. Bone not only affects a bullet's terminal performance characteristics it can also complicate wounding effects (or as Ayoob declared: "this can drastically alter the performance of the projectile in terms of both deceleration and deformation, thus radically altering the degree and the profile of the tissue damage that will now be caused."). Fackler's bare gelatin wound profile represents uncomplicated wounding effects involving soft tissues only. Projectile/bone/soft tissue interaction are not depicted in Fackler’s bare gelatin wound profile. A block of bare gelatin in no way represents a human head. Yet Ayoob deceitfully attempts to convince his readers that it does, in total disregard of his claims to the opposite in Handguns just a few months earlier.
(Note: an extract from an article by Duncan MacPherson that confronts misconceptions about differences in soft tissue densities, as related to homogeneous ordnance gelatin testing, appears after the References/Endnotes section of this reply.)
++++++
In regard to the .30-30 photo cited by Fackler, Ayoob writes:
"Interestingly, Dr. Fackler does not cite a much more representative .30-30 soft-nose head wound in the same book, with a more typical 2” defect."
-Ibid.
Unfortunately, Ayoob did not identify the particular photo he refers to and it’s not obvious in DiMaio’s book. Altogether there are about a half-dozen photos of .30-30 gunshot wounds presented by DiMaio:
• Figure 7-5. Homicidal contact wound of right temple from .30-30 rifle. (p. 148)
• Figure 7-7. Contact chest wound from .30-30 rifle with muzzle imprint. (p. 149)
• Figure 7-8. High-velocity rifle wound of right half of head from .30-30 rifle. Bullet entered in back of head. Ejected cartridge case can be seen in hair. Second gunshot wound of left side of neck. (p. 151)
• Figure 7-9. Large stellate distant wound of entrance in back of head from .30-30 rifle. (p. 151)
• Figure 7-14. “Lead snowstorm” from .30-30 hunting bullet. (p. 157)
• Figure 7-16. Bullet and shrapnel wounds of left side of chest from .30-30 rifle bullet that passed through car door. (p. 160)
• Figure 7-17. X-ray of chest showing bullet in midline with steel fragment in left side of chest. (p. 160)
-DiMaio, Vincent J.M.: Gunshot Wounds: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques. Elsevier Science Publishing Co., Inc., New York, NY; 1985.
Keeping in mind that the massive JFK head wound as well as the head wound cited by Fackler are both exit wounds, I’m unable to determine what photo, in DiMiao’s book, depicts the "more typical 2” defect," as none of the .30-30 head wound photos, in the context of an exit wound, appear to match Ayoob’s description. It seems Ayoob habitually believes his readers are unlikely to verify the references he cites to support his claims.
DiMaio’s discussion on page 150, which refers to figure 7-8 (the photo cited by Fackler), states:
Intermediate and distant head wounds, show a wide range in the degree of severity, depending on the style of the bullet and the entrance site in the head. Anything that tends to produce instability in the bullet as it enters the head results in more extensive injuries. Thus, bullets entering the thick occipital bone cause greater injuries than those entering the temporal area. Intermediate and distant wounds of the head can be just as devastating as contact wounds (Figure 7-8).”
-Ibid.
________________________________________
Stressfire II: Another Erroneous Anecdotal Report
On page 12 of Stressfire II, Ayoob writes:
In an infamous San Jose shooting, a deranged homeless man snatched a police officer’s revolver, murdered him with it, then engaged other officers in a running gunfight. After he had been killed, another officer was found a block away dying. He was thought at first to have been slain by the cop killer with the stolen service-revolver. However, autopsy showed that a single 00 buckshot pellet fired by another officer had gone past the offender and struck the officer, entering below his ballistic vest and severing the abdominal aorta. The dead officer was between 50 and 60 yards from the officer who fired.
-Ayoob, Massad F.: StressFire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun. Massad F. and Dorothy Ayoob, Concord, NH, 1992.
In reality, investigators were unable to determine who fired the 00 buckshot pellet that killed officer Gordon Silva. It was a ricochet, and there were two officers from whom the pellet could have originated: officer Phillip Rodgers was located about 20 yards from Silva, and officer Thomas Cannell was 70+ yards away. There was no shooter between 50 and 60 yards as reported by Ayoob. Reconstruction of the shooting produced inconclusive results because Silva’s fatal wound was accurately replicated in ordnance gelatin at both 20 yards and 70+ yards.
Contrary to Ayoob’s report, Silva was not “found a block away dying.” In his police report, Rodgers describes his close proximity to Silva: “I observed officer Silva directly across from me on the sidewalk. …I took this into account as the suspect ran out and I took aim and fired at the suspect.”
Furthermore, Ayoob incorrectly reports that the pellet cut Silva’s aorta; in fact, it passed through the inferior vena cava.
________________________________________
Unique Perspective Indeed
"...Massad Ayoob has access to a unique real-world perspective of which rounds work and which don't in actual gunfights."
-Ayoob, Massad: "Top 9mm Parabellum Combat Loads." Handguns, October 1990; pp. 42–49.________________________________________
The LASD chose to go from the excellent 115 gr. Federal 9BP jacketed hollowpoint to a 147 gr. subsonic load. Nature took its course. The deputies discovered in the field that, when loaded with low-velocity hollowpoints, the 9mm was the impotent manstopper that Jeff Cooper had warned them about.
-Ayoob, Massad: “Safety, Safety, Safety.” American Handgunner, January/February 2001
________________________________________
"Sir, the information provided by Mr. Ayoob regarding poor performance of the 147gr 9mm is incorrect. This Department uses the Winchester [147gr] SXT and the performance of this bullet is outstanding."
-Bruce Harris, Training Bureau, Weapons Training, Biscailuz Center Range, Los Angeles Sheriff’s Department (e-mail to Shawn Dodson, January 2001)
Sadly, although I can continue to present additional examples of Ayoob's misinformation, I’ve proved my point.
Among his many gifts Ayoob is an exceptionally talented, prolific and successful writer. He's made great contributions to the study, understanding and application of lawful use of force, and I respect him for these achievements.
For as much as he writes he's bound to make an occasional error. He’s human and stuff happens. As with any reasonable person, I’m willing to overlook minor inaccuracies, and pardon major mistakes provided they’re acknowledged, corrected and don't happen too often. But Ayoob has given me reason to question his honesty.
In addition, the multitude of serious factual errors reported by Ayoob, a product of inaccurate anecdotal reports, combined with a refusal to acknowledge and correct them, substantially undermines his credibility as an authority on shooting incident analysis and "stopping power." A claim made by Ayoob, without valid, verifiable documentation to support it, is untrustworthy.
"There's a saying: If you suck one cock, you're a cocksucker forever. Well, if you tell one lie in court, you're a liar forever.”
-Massad Ayoob11
Ayoob was thoroughly impeached by John Hall in the Hansen case because of his misconduct as an expert witness - he shopped his opinion, i.e., his testimony supported whatever the side paying him needed him to support regardless of truth. Ayoob lied.
Anyone seeking Ayoob's expert testimony is well advised that he can be easily discredited by his history of contradictions and deceitful arguments as exemplified in Hansen and the well documented evidence presented herein.
"My 33 years as a fully sworn, part time police officer have been satisfying, rewarding, and occasionally fun, but I base little if any expertise on that part of my life."
-Massad Ayoob12
If a seemingly humble Ayoob is to be taken at his word (above) then what is the point of his self-important, "look at me I'm a cop", display of a Grantham, NH police department shield, like a corny CCW badge, when he poses/appears in popular firearms media?
Finally, Ayoob reacts emotionally when challenged. He is quick to hypocritically hurl smug, snarky personal attacks when confronted and backed into a corner by his own words and misdeeds.
"The attacks are personal – argumentum ad hominum – the last desperate refuge of the debater who has no case…."
-Ayoob, Massad: "CopTalk: The Stopping Power Debate." American Handgunner, March/April 2000; p. 74.
References/Endnotes
1. In tribute to the 20th anniversary of the FBI-Miami shootout.
2. ambackforum.com: The Leading Am Back Forum Site on the Net
3. ambackforum.com: The Leading Am Back Forum Site on the Net
4. The Gun Zone -- Mas Ayoob Responds
5. Armed and Female by Massad Ayoob Issue #63
6. Contemptuously alluding to Martin L. Fackler, M.D.
7. Ayoob, Sanow Shooting Incident Falsehoods
8. Apologies to Christopher Whitcomb
9. ambackforum.com: The Leading Am Back Forum Site on the Net
10. Lattimer, John K. M.D., Sc.D., F.A.C.S: Kennedy and Lincoln: Medical & Ballistic Comparisons of Their Assassinations. Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, New York, NY; 1980
11. News & Opinion: Finishing School (The Boston Phoenix . 11-29-99)
12. Smith & Wesson Forum
Ayoob Claim False:
“Silvertip .357 is authorized by the Bureau only for special circumstances, and it is believed that supervisor McNeill’s 2½" Combat Magnum was so charged.” (p. 193)
"[Mireles] was able to clearly distinguish between what he described as the popping sound of agents’ 9mms and .38s, the bang of McNeill’s .357 Magnum rounds, and the ‘psychologically devastating ka-boom’ of Platt’s .223 rifle." (p. 220)
Discredited By
Anecdotal report not substantiated by forensic evidence
FBI records show McNeill fired 6 rounds Winchester .38 Special +P 158gr LSWCHP from his S&W M19-3, .357 Magnum revolver. In addition, three .38 Special +P cartridges were loaded in the chamber of his revolver when it was recovered and examined. Finally, inventory of McNeill’s car, Buick LeSabre, license 516-DTK, revealed no Winchester .357 Magnum 145gr STHP ammunition within:
• http://foia.fbi.gov/shooting/shooting1a.pdf
(Adobe Reader pp. 66 & 67)
• Link Removed
(Adobe Reader pp. 18 & 19)
• http://foia.fbi.gov/shooting/shooting1a.pdf
(Adobe Reader p. 61)
Metro-Dade PD records show nine .38 Special “casings” found at rear of McNeill’s car:
Rivers, David, Sgt., Metro-Dade Police Dept: “Weapons Found at Scene.” (Forensic Analysis, Plate B, p. 8)
Neither McNeill nor Mireles dispute Anderson’s statement, “6 rounds (38+P) fired,” (Forensic Analysis, pp. 13, 112-114, 119-127)
Ayoob Claim False:
“Meanwhile, Matix has squeezed out the driver’s door of the wrecked getaway car, and he unleashes a blast of 00 buckshot at Grogan and Dove to pin them down.” (p. 199)
Discredited By
FBI records show that Matix’s shotgun was loaded with Winchester #6 birdshot:
http://foia.fbi.gov/shooting/shooting1a.pdf (Adobe Reader pp. 66 & 67)
FBI records show spent #6 birdshot recovered from Grogan/Dove’s vehicle:
http://foia.fbi.gov/shooting/shooting1a.pdf (Adobe Reader p. 57)
Ayoob Claim False:
“The buckshot has smashed into [Platt’s] face... but it has come in from a side angle, and no pellet has reached his brain.” (p. 202)
Discredited By
No evidence that buckshot "smashed into Platt's face." Autopsy report (Forensic Analysis, pp. 97-105):
Case No. 86-0969: autopsy report for PLATT, Michael L., prepared by Jay S. Barnhart, Jr, M.D., Associate Medical Examiner, Dade County Medical Examiner, dated 25 April 1986, 8 pages.
Ayoob Claim False:
"Mireles’ fourth blast and his fifth, blows out the windshield of the Buick. Matix twists in agony as he is hit by the pellets.” (p. 203)
Discredited By
No evidence that Matix was hit by any buckshot. Autopsy report (Forensic Analysis, pp. 90-96):
Case No. 86-0968: autopsy report for MATIX, William, prepared by Jay S. Barnhart, Jr, M.D., Associate Medical Examiner, Dade County Medical Examiner, dated 25 April 1986, 7 pages.
Ayoob Claim False:
“And behind the wheel, his face a bloody mask...." (p. 203)
Discredited By
Crime scene photo (Forensic Analysis, Plate IV-F, p. 84) of Platt’s body laying on ground, face up, does not agree with Ayoob’s dramatic, fabricated description
Ayoob Claim False:
"[Mireles] concentrates on the face of the copkiller at the end of the tunnel, and on his front sight, and even in broad daylight there is the flash as the Federal 158 grain lead hollowpoint .38 slug roars from the barrel of his gun and into the brain of the murderer Platt." (p. 204)
Discredited By
Autopsy report
Autopsy x-ray (Forensic Analysis, Figure IV-4, p. 71) of Platt’s head shows no projectiles penetrated the brain
FBI records show that Mireles’ revolver was loaded with Winchester ammunition:
http://foia.fbi.gov/shooting/shooting1a.pdf
(Adobe Reader pp. 66 & 67)
Ayoob Claim False:
"[McNeill] adds that he learned later that both Matix’ eardrums had been ruptured by his partner’s gunfire. (p. 214)
Discredited By
Anecdotal report not substantiated by forensic evidence
Autopsy report: examination revealed no evidence of Matix having suffered ruptured eardrums:
EXTERNAL EXAMINATION:…No blood is in the ear canals. The conjunctivae have no petechiae and the irides are blue and the pupils are round and equal and 4 millimeters in diameter….
Ayoob Claim False:
“[Mireles’] first shot had mangled the foot of the cop-killer, and the last three rounds of 12-pellet 00-buck smashed into Platt’s maxillofacial structure and also tore into the face of Matix. One pellet entered Matix’ brain." (p. 221)
Discredited By
Autopsy reports
Autopsy x-ray (Forensic Analysis, Figure IV-4, p. 71) of Platt’s head shows no projectiles having collided with or damaged the maxillofacial structure
Autopsy x-ray (Forensic Analysis, Figure IV-17, p. 76) of Matix’s head shows no projectiles penetrated the brain
Ayoob Claim False:
"...Dove fired 27 pistol shots and scored only one hit, and Grogan fired close to 20 with no hits." (p. 222)
Discredited By
FBI records show that Dove fired 20 rounds; Grogan fired nine:
• Link Removed
(Adobe Reader pp. 18)
• http://foia.fbi.gov/shooting/shooting1a.pdf
(Adobe Reader pp. 66 & 67)
Ayoob seems to think I’ve read his book, The Ayoob Files. He shouldn’t flatter himself. I merely verified photocopies of two FBI Miami shootout chapters taken from his book, that were provided to me by another person, to ensure the book was consistent with the magazine articles. I critiqued the reports presented in the book because it appeared to me, at the time, that it would be easier for interested readers to get hold of his book than two aging magazine articles. I have no reason to believe any given shooting incident report or “stopping power” claim Ayoob makes is true, as I shall continue to show.
________________________________________
Where’s the Brain?
In 1993, American Handgunner published Ayoob’s acrimonious reply to a letter from Martin L. Fackler, M.D., in which Fackler challenged assertions made by Ayoob in an article he'd written about the JFK assassination. Among several questionable claims, Ayoob’s conclusion is particularly worthy of scrutiny:
"…the head shot in frame 313 of the Zapruder film is totally incongruous with what the 6.5 Carcano ball round is known to do."
-Ayoob, Massad: "Where's the Brain." American Handgunner, 17(105): July/August 1993; pp. 12, 15.
Ayoob’s declaration is absolutely untrue.
Ayoob is obviously conversant with Lattimer’s 1980 book; in his reply to Fackler he's able to cite information buried in a single sentence on page 271. Yet Lattimer’s Figure 91, Skull Bullets,10 not only proves Ayoob wrong it exemplifies the shameless extent of his blatant dishonesty. (It appears Ayoob knew few of his readers had access to an obscure, out of print book; and of those that did, there was no mass media means to reveal his deceit. In addition, his status with the popular gun press ensured he would have the last word in replying to any criticism. However with the arrival of the Internet there are no more secrets; valid and verifiable evidence to challenge and expose misinformation can now be easily presented to a mass audience. It is no longer possible to hide behind editors and exploit limitations of the print media to betray unsuspecting readers for the purpose of protecting one's own ego and importance.)
In response to Ayoob’s nonsense, Lattimer published a detailed summary of the findings reported in his book. I present an extract from his summary, which appears after the References/Endnotes section of this reply, that describes the mechanics of JFK’s fatal head wound. (The information presented in the extract also appears in Lattimer’s book, Kennedy and Lincoln: Medical and Ballistic Comparisons of their Assassinations, albeit in a less concise format.)
In a situation that bears striking similarity to his unscrupulous Hansen testimony, an earlier magazine article comes back to bite Ayoob in the ass. Five months prior to "Where's the Brain?” Ayoob published the following:
Modern formulations of ballistic gelatin based on Fackler’s formula are extremely convenient for the experimenter, and they do indeed simulate the resistance to a bullet that would occur in the muscle tissue of a pig, which in turn closely replicates the muscle tissue of a man. Unfortunately, there are also shortcomings.
We do not shoot at the muscles. We shoot at the internal organs and do so through various intervening bodily structures. One problem with gelatin is that it is homogeneous and gives the bullet a smoothly consistent resistance throughout its path that will not occur in the human body.
The mammalian body is heterogeneous. In a tiny fraction of a second, the bullet goes through stretchy epidermis [sic], then the fibrous elasticity of muscle tissue, then perhaps the plastic density of a solid abdominal organ like the liver or spleen, and along the way it may have crashed through rigid resistance of bone. Each of these obstacles offers a different resistance to the bullet than does any homogeneous medium, and this can drastically alter the performance of the projectile in terms of both deceleration and deformation, thus radically altering the degree and the profile of the tissue damage that will now be caused. [emphasis added]
These variables need to be considered. They aren’t found in gelatin. They are found in medical reports of surviving gunshot victims and in the autopsy protocols conducted upon those who did not survive. Combined with involved personnel’s observations of exactly what the individual did immediately after being shot, we have the “anecdotal” data relied upon by Marshall and his followers. [emphasis added]
-Ayoob, Massad: “Stopping Power: A Look at the Current Controversy.” Handguns, February 1993; pp. 28–32, 87.
Thus, in February’s Handguns, Ayoob carefully explains several "shortcomings" of ordnance gelatin testing, but in the July/August issue of American Handgunner, Ayoob disingenuously contradicts himself; a block of gelatin is now so flawless it proves JFK wasn’t shot in the head with a 6.5mm Carcano bullet! In pathetic effort to present the appearance of winning a debate (which is apparently more important to Ayoob than the truth) he deceitfully attempts to misrepresent Fackler’s wound profile:
"Dr. Fackler’s suggestion is incongruous in that it is completely refuted and contradicted by his own earlier work….
"Fackler’s workup of the 6.5mm Carcano roundnose bullet indicates that it will penetrate 106cm (41+”) of flesh simulant…."
-(see Ayoob: "Where's the Brain.")
Indeed, one cannot dispute that Fackler’s wound profile illustration shows that the 6.5mm Carcano FMJ bullet produces minimal soft tissue disruption. However as shown by Lattimer, its performance in the JFK head wound is entirely consistent with a rifle bullet that strikes bone early in its wound path: it fragmented. Bone not only affects a bullet's terminal performance characteristics it can also complicate wounding effects (or as Ayoob declared: "this can drastically alter the performance of the projectile in terms of both deceleration and deformation, thus radically altering the degree and the profile of the tissue damage that will now be caused."). Fackler's bare gelatin wound profile represents uncomplicated wounding effects involving soft tissues only. Projectile/bone/soft tissue interaction are not depicted in Fackler’s bare gelatin wound profile. A block of bare gelatin in no way represents a human head. Yet Ayoob deceitfully attempts to convince his readers that it does, in total disregard of his claims to the opposite in Handguns just a few months earlier.
(Note: an extract from an article by Duncan MacPherson that confronts misconceptions about differences in soft tissue densities, as related to homogeneous ordnance gelatin testing, appears after the References/Endnotes section of this reply.)
++++++
In regard to the .30-30 photo cited by Fackler, Ayoob writes:
"Interestingly, Dr. Fackler does not cite a much more representative .30-30 soft-nose head wound in the same book, with a more typical 2” defect."
-Ibid.
Unfortunately, Ayoob did not identify the particular photo he refers to and it’s not obvious in DiMaio’s book. Altogether there are about a half-dozen photos of .30-30 gunshot wounds presented by DiMaio:
• Figure 7-5. Homicidal contact wound of right temple from .30-30 rifle. (p. 148)
• Figure 7-7. Contact chest wound from .30-30 rifle with muzzle imprint. (p. 149)
• Figure 7-8. High-velocity rifle wound of right half of head from .30-30 rifle. Bullet entered in back of head. Ejected cartridge case can be seen in hair. Second gunshot wound of left side of neck. (p. 151)
• Figure 7-9. Large stellate distant wound of entrance in back of head from .30-30 rifle. (p. 151)
• Figure 7-14. “Lead snowstorm” from .30-30 hunting bullet. (p. 157)
• Figure 7-16. Bullet and shrapnel wounds of left side of chest from .30-30 rifle bullet that passed through car door. (p. 160)
• Figure 7-17. X-ray of chest showing bullet in midline with steel fragment in left side of chest. (p. 160)
-DiMaio, Vincent J.M.: Gunshot Wounds: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques. Elsevier Science Publishing Co., Inc., New York, NY; 1985.
Keeping in mind that the massive JFK head wound as well as the head wound cited by Fackler are both exit wounds, I’m unable to determine what photo, in DiMiao’s book, depicts the "more typical 2” defect," as none of the .30-30 head wound photos, in the context of an exit wound, appear to match Ayoob’s description. It seems Ayoob habitually believes his readers are unlikely to verify the references he cites to support his claims.
DiMaio’s discussion on page 150, which refers to figure 7-8 (the photo cited by Fackler), states:
Intermediate and distant head wounds, show a wide range in the degree of severity, depending on the style of the bullet and the entrance site in the head. Anything that tends to produce instability in the bullet as it enters the head results in more extensive injuries. Thus, bullets entering the thick occipital bone cause greater injuries than those entering the temporal area. Intermediate and distant wounds of the head can be just as devastating as contact wounds (Figure 7-8).”
-Ibid.
________________________________________
Stressfire II: Another Erroneous Anecdotal Report
On page 12 of Stressfire II, Ayoob writes:
In an infamous San Jose shooting, a deranged homeless man snatched a police officer’s revolver, murdered him with it, then engaged other officers in a running gunfight. After he had been killed, another officer was found a block away dying. He was thought at first to have been slain by the cop killer with the stolen service-revolver. However, autopsy showed that a single 00 buckshot pellet fired by another officer had gone past the offender and struck the officer, entering below his ballistic vest and severing the abdominal aorta. The dead officer was between 50 and 60 yards from the officer who fired.
-Ayoob, Massad F.: StressFire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun. Massad F. and Dorothy Ayoob, Concord, NH, 1992.
In reality, investigators were unable to determine who fired the 00 buckshot pellet that killed officer Gordon Silva. It was a ricochet, and there were two officers from whom the pellet could have originated: officer Phillip Rodgers was located about 20 yards from Silva, and officer Thomas Cannell was 70+ yards away. There was no shooter between 50 and 60 yards as reported by Ayoob. Reconstruction of the shooting produced inconclusive results because Silva’s fatal wound was accurately replicated in ordnance gelatin at both 20 yards and 70+ yards.
Contrary to Ayoob’s report, Silva was not “found a block away dying.” In his police report, Rodgers describes his close proximity to Silva: “I observed officer Silva directly across from me on the sidewalk. …I took this into account as the suspect ran out and I took aim and fired at the suspect.”
Furthermore, Ayoob incorrectly reports that the pellet cut Silva’s aorta; in fact, it passed through the inferior vena cava.
________________________________________
Unique Perspective Indeed
"...Massad Ayoob has access to a unique real-world perspective of which rounds work and which don't in actual gunfights."
-Ayoob, Massad: "Top 9mm Parabellum Combat Loads." Handguns, October 1990; pp. 42–49.________________________________________
The LASD chose to go from the excellent 115 gr. Federal 9BP jacketed hollowpoint to a 147 gr. subsonic load. Nature took its course. The deputies discovered in the field that, when loaded with low-velocity hollowpoints, the 9mm was the impotent manstopper that Jeff Cooper had warned them about.
-Ayoob, Massad: “Safety, Safety, Safety.” American Handgunner, January/February 2001
________________________________________
"Sir, the information provided by Mr. Ayoob regarding poor performance of the 147gr 9mm is incorrect. This Department uses the Winchester [147gr] SXT and the performance of this bullet is outstanding."
-Bruce Harris, Training Bureau, Weapons Training, Biscailuz Center Range, Los Angeles Sheriff’s Department (e-mail to Shawn Dodson, January 2001)
Sadly, although I can continue to present additional examples of Ayoob's misinformation, I’ve proved my point.
Among his many gifts Ayoob is an exceptionally talented, prolific and successful writer. He's made great contributions to the study, understanding and application of lawful use of force, and I respect him for these achievements.
For as much as he writes he's bound to make an occasional error. He’s human and stuff happens. As with any reasonable person, I’m willing to overlook minor inaccuracies, and pardon major mistakes provided they’re acknowledged, corrected and don't happen too often. But Ayoob has given me reason to question his honesty.
In addition, the multitude of serious factual errors reported by Ayoob, a product of inaccurate anecdotal reports, combined with a refusal to acknowledge and correct them, substantially undermines his credibility as an authority on shooting incident analysis and "stopping power." A claim made by Ayoob, without valid, verifiable documentation to support it, is untrustworthy.
"There's a saying: If you suck one cock, you're a cocksucker forever. Well, if you tell one lie in court, you're a liar forever.”
-Massad Ayoob11
Ayoob was thoroughly impeached by John Hall in the Hansen case because of his misconduct as an expert witness - he shopped his opinion, i.e., his testimony supported whatever the side paying him needed him to support regardless of truth. Ayoob lied.
Anyone seeking Ayoob's expert testimony is well advised that he can be easily discredited by his history of contradictions and deceitful arguments as exemplified in Hansen and the well documented evidence presented herein.
"My 33 years as a fully sworn, part time police officer have been satisfying, rewarding, and occasionally fun, but I base little if any expertise on that part of my life."
-Massad Ayoob12
If a seemingly humble Ayoob is to be taken at his word (above) then what is the point of his self-important, "look at me I'm a cop", display of a Grantham, NH police department shield, like a corny CCW badge, when he poses/appears in popular firearms media?
Finally, Ayoob reacts emotionally when challenged. He is quick to hypocritically hurl smug, snarky personal attacks when confronted and backed into a corner by his own words and misdeeds.
"The attacks are personal – argumentum ad hominum – the last desperate refuge of the debater who has no case…."
-Ayoob, Massad: "CopTalk: The Stopping Power Debate." American Handgunner, March/April 2000; p. 74.
References/Endnotes
1. In tribute to the 20th anniversary of the FBI-Miami shootout.
2. ambackforum.com: The Leading Am Back Forum Site on the Net
3. ambackforum.com: The Leading Am Back Forum Site on the Net
4. The Gun Zone -- Mas Ayoob Responds
5. Armed and Female by Massad Ayoob Issue #63
6. Contemptuously alluding to Martin L. Fackler, M.D.
7. Ayoob, Sanow Shooting Incident Falsehoods
8. Apologies to Christopher Whitcomb
9. ambackforum.com: The Leading Am Back Forum Site on the Net
10. Lattimer, John K. M.D., Sc.D., F.A.C.S: Kennedy and Lincoln: Medical & Ballistic Comparisons of Their Assassinations. Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, New York, NY; 1980
11. News & Opinion: Finishing School (The Boston Phoenix . 11-29-99)
12. Smith & Wesson Forum
Ayoob can pose all he wants, but his pompous insistence that he’s correct in all but one minor detail regarding the FBI-Miami shootout is easily discredited by simple fact checking of sources he claims to have thoroughly consulted:
Ayoob Claim False:
“Silvertip .357 is authorized by the Bureau only for special circumstances, and it is believed that supervisor McNeill’s 2½" Combat Magnum was so charged.” (p. 193)
"[Mireles] was able to clearly distinguish between what he described as the popping sound of agents’ 9mms and .38s, the bang of McNeill’s .357 Magnum rounds, and the ‘psychologically devastating ka-boom’ of Platt’s .223 rifle." (p. 220)
Discredited By
Anecdotal report not substantiated by forensic evidence
FBI records show McNeill fired 6 rounds Winchester .38 Special +P 158gr LSWCHP from his S&W M19-3, .357 Magnum revolver. In addition, three .38 Special +P cartridges were loaded in the chamber of his revolver when it was recovered and examined. Finally, inventory of McNeill’s car, Buick LeSabre, license 516-DTK, revealed no Winchester .357 Magnum 145gr STHP ammunition within:
• http://foia.fbi.gov/shooting/shooting1a.pdf
(Adobe Reader pp. 66 & 67)
• Link Removed
(Adobe Reader pp. 18 & 19)
• http://foia.fbi.gov/shooting/shooting1a.pdf
(Adobe Reader p. 61)
Metro-Dade PD records show nine .38 Special “casings” found at rear of McNeill’s car:
Rivers, David, Sgt., Metro-Dade Police Dept: “Weapons Found at Scene.” (Forensic Analysis, Plate B, p. 8)
Neither McNeill nor Mireles dispute Anderson’s statement, “6 rounds (38+P) fired,” (Forensic Analysis, pp. 13, 112-114, 119-127)
Ayoob Claim False:
“Meanwhile, Matix has squeezed out the driver’s door of the wrecked getaway car, and he unleashes a blast of 00 buckshot at Grogan and Dove to pin them down.” (p. 199)
Discredited By
FBI records show that Matix’s shotgun was loaded with Winchester #6 birdshot:
http://foia.fbi.gov/shooting/shooting1a.pdf (Adobe Reader pp. 66 & 67)
FBI records show spent #6 birdshot recovered from Grogan/Dove’s vehicle:
http://foia.fbi.gov/shooting/shooting1a.pdf (Adobe Reader p. 57)
Ayoob Claim False:
“The buckshot has smashed into [Platt’s] face... but it has come in from a side angle, and no pellet has reached his brain.” (p. 202)
Discredited By
No evidence that buckshot "smashed into Platt's face." Autopsy report (Forensic Analysis, pp. 97-105):
Case No. 86-0969: autopsy report for PLATT, Michael L., prepared by Jay S. Barnhart, Jr, M.D., Associate Medical Examiner, Dade County Medical Examiner, dated 25 April 1986, 8 pages.
Ayoob Claim False:
"Mireles’ fourth blast and his fifth, blows out the windshield of the Buick. Matix twists in agony as he is hit by the pellets.” (p. 203)
Discredited By
No evidence that Matix was hit by any buckshot. Autopsy report (Forensic Analysis, pp. 90-96):
Case No. 86-0968: autopsy report for MATIX, William, prepared by Jay S. Barnhart, Jr, M.D., Associate Medical Examiner, Dade County Medical Examiner, dated 25 April 1986, 7 pages.
Ayoob Claim False:
“And behind the wheel, his face a bloody mask...." (p. 203)
Discredited By
Crime scene photo (Forensic Analysis, Plate IV-F, p. 84) of Platt’s body laying on ground, face up, does not agree with Ayoob’s dramatic, fabricated description
Ayoob Claim False:
"[Mireles] concentrates on the face of the copkiller at the end of the tunnel, and on his front sight, and even in broad daylight there is the flash as the Federal 158 grain lead hollowpoint .38 slug roars from the barrel of his gun and into the brain of the murderer Platt." (p. 204)
Discredited By
Autopsy report
Autopsy x-ray (Forensic Analysis, Figure IV-4, p. 71) of Platt’s head shows no projectiles penetrated the brain
FBI records show that Mireles’ revolver was loaded with Winchester ammunition:
http://foia.fbi.gov/shooting/shooting1a.pdf
(Adobe Reader pp. 66 & 67)
Ayoob Claim False:
"[McNeill] adds that he learned later that both Matix’ eardrums had been ruptured by his partner’s gunfire. (p. 214)
Discredited By
Anecdotal report not substantiated by forensic evidence
Autopsy report: examination revealed no evidence of Matix having suffered ruptured eardrums:
EXTERNAL EXAMINATION:…No blood is in the ear canals. The conjunctivae have no petechiae and the irides are blue and the pupils are round and equal and 4 millimeters in diameter….
Ayoob Claim False:
“[Mireles’] first shot had mangled the foot of the cop-killer, and the last three rounds of 12-pellet 00-buck smashed into Platt’s maxillofacial structure and also tore into the face of Matix. One pellet entered Matix’ brain." (p. 221)
Discredited By
Autopsy reports
Autopsy x-ray (Forensic Analysis, Figure IV-4, p. 71) of Platt’s head shows no projectiles having collided with or damaged the maxillofacial structure
Autopsy x-ray (Forensic Analysis, Figure IV-17, p. 76) of Matix’s head shows no projectiles penetrated the brain
Ayoob Claim False:
"...Dove fired 27 pistol shots and scored only one hit, and Grogan fired close to 20 with no hits." (p. 222)
Discredited By
FBI records show that Dove fired 20 rounds; Grogan fired nine:
• Link Removed
(Adobe Reader pp. 18)
• http://foia.fbi.gov/shooting/shooting1a.pdf
(Adobe Reader pp. 66 & 67)
Ayoob seems to think I’ve read his book, The Ayoob Files. He shouldn’t flatter himself. I merely verified photocopies of two FBI Miami shootout chapters taken from his book, that were provided to me by another person, to ensure the book was consistent with the magazine articles. I critiqued the reports presented in the book because it appeared to me, at the time, that it would be easier for interested readers to get hold of his book than two aging magazine articles. I have no reason to believe any given shooting incident report or “stopping power” claim Ayoob makes is true, as I shall continue to show.
________________________________________
Where’s the Brain?
In 1993, American Handgunner published Ayoob’s acrimonious reply to a letter from Martin L. Fackler, M.D., in which Fackler challenged assertions made by Ayoob in an article he'd written about the JFK assassination. Among several questionable claims, Ayoob’s conclusion is particularly worthy of scrutiny:
"…the head shot in frame 313 of the Zapruder film is totally incongruous with what the 6.5 Carcano ball round is known to do."
-Ayoob, Massad: "Where's the Brain." American Handgunner, 17(105): July/August 1993; pp. 12, 15.
Ayoob’s declaration is absolutely untrue.
Ayoob is obviously conversant with Lattimer’s 1980 book; in his reply to Fackler he's able to cite information buried in a single sentence on page 271. Yet Lattimer’s Figure 91, Skull Bullets,10 not only proves Ayoob wrong it exemplifies the shameless extent of his blatant dishonesty. (It appears Ayoob knew few of his readers had access to an obscure, out of print book; and of those that did, there was no mass media means to reveal his deceit. In addition, his status with the popular gun press ensured he would have the last word in replying to any criticism. However with the arrival of the Internet there are no more secrets; valid and verifiable evidence to challenge and expose misinformation can now be easily presented to a mass audience. It is no longer possible to hide behind editors and exploit limitations of the print media to betray unsuspecting readers for the purpose of protecting one's own ego and importance.)
In response to Ayoob’s nonsense, Lattimer published a detailed summary of the findings reported in his book. I present an extract from his summary, which appears after the References/Endnotes section of this reply, that describes the mechanics of JFK’s fatal head wound. (The information presented in the extract also appears in Lattimer’s book, Kennedy and Lincoln: Medical and Ballistic Comparisons of their Assassinations, albeit in a less concise format.)
In a situation that bears striking similarity to his unscrupulous Hansen testimony, an earlier magazine article comes back to bite Ayoob in the ass. Five months prior to "Where's the Brain?” Ayoob published the following:
Modern formulations of ballistic gelatin based on Fackler’s formula are extremely convenient for the experimenter, and they do indeed simulate the resistance to a bullet that would occur in the muscle tissue of a pig, which in turn closely replicates the muscle tissue of a man. Unfortunately, there are also shortcomings.
We do not shoot at the muscles. We shoot at the internal organs and do so through various intervening bodily structures. One problem with gelatin is that it is homogeneous and gives the bullet a smoothly consistent resistance throughout its path that will not occur in the human body.
The mammalian body is heterogeneous. In a tiny fraction of a second, the bullet goes through stretchy epidermis [sic], then the fibrous elasticity of muscle tissue, then perhaps the plastic density of a solid abdominal organ like the liver or spleen, and along the way it may have crashed through rigid resistance of bone. Each of these obstacles offers a different resistance to the bullet than does any homogeneous medium, and this can drastically alter the performance of the projectile in terms of both deceleration and deformation, thus radically altering the degree and the profile of the tissue damage that will now be caused. [emphasis added]
These variables need to be considered. They aren’t found in gelatin. They are found in medical reports of surviving gunshot victims and in the autopsy protocols conducted upon those who did not survive. Combined with involved personnel’s observations of exactly what the individual did immediately after being shot, we have the “anecdotal” data relied upon by Marshall and his followers. [emphasis added]
-Ayoob, Massad: “Stopping Power: A Look at the Current Controversy.” Handguns, February 1993; pp. 28–32, 87.
Thus, in February’s Handguns, Ayoob carefully explains several "shortcomings" of ordnance gelatin testing, but in the July/August issue of American Handgunner, Ayoob disingenuously contradicts himself; a block of gelatin is now so flawless it proves JFK wasn’t shot in the head with a 6.5mm Carcano bullet! In pathetic effort to present the appearance of winning a debate (which is apparently more important to Ayoob than the truth) he deceitfully attempts to misrepresent Fackler’s wound profile:
"Dr. Fackler’s suggestion is incongruous in that it is completely refuted and contradicted by his own earlier work….
"Fackler’s workup of the 6.5mm Carcano roundnose bullet indicates that it will penetrate 106cm (41+”) of flesh simulant…."
-(see Ayoob: "Where's the Brain.")
Indeed, one cannot dispute that Fackler’s wound profile illustration shows that the 6.5mm Carcano FMJ bullet produces minimal soft tissue disruption. However as shown by Lattimer, its performance in the JFK head wound is entirely consistent with a rifle bullet that strikes bone early in its wound path: it fragmented. Bone not only affects a bullet's terminal performance characteristics it can also complicate wounding effects (or as Ayoob declared: "this can drastically alter the performance of the projectile in terms of both deceleration and deformation, thus radically altering the degree and the profile of the tissue damage that will now be caused."). Fackler's bare gelatin wound profile represents uncomplicated wounding effects involving soft tissues only. Projectile/bone/soft tissue interaction are not depicted in Fackler’s bare gelatin wound profile. A block of bare gelatin in no way represents a human head. Yet Ayoob deceitfully attempts to convince his readers that it does, in total disregard of his claims to the opposite in Handguns just a few months earlier.
(Note: an extract from an article by Duncan MacPherson that confronts misconceptions about differences in soft tissue densities, as related to homogeneous ordnance gelatin testing, appears after the References/Endnotes section of this reply.)
++++++
In regard to the .30-30 photo cited by Fackler, Ayoob writes:
"Interestingly, Dr. Fackler does not cite a much more representative .30-30 soft-nose head wound in the same book, with a more typical 2” defect."
-Ibid.
Unfortunately, Ayoob did not identify the particular photo he refers to and it’s not obvious in DiMaio’s book. Altogether there are about a half-dozen photos of .30-30 gunshot wounds presented by DiMaio:
• Figure 7-5. Homicidal contact wound of right temple from .30-30 rifle. (p. 148)
• Figure 7-7. Contact chest wound from .30-30 rifle with muzzle imprint. (p. 149)
• Figure 7-8. High-velocity rifle wound of right half of head from .30-30 rifle. Bullet entered in back of head. Ejected cartridge case can be seen in hair. Second gunshot wound of left side of neck. (p. 151)
• Figure 7-9. Large stellate distant wound of entrance in back of head from .30-30 rifle. (p. 151)
• Figure 7-14. “Lead snowstorm” from .30-30 hunting bullet. (p. 157)
• Figure 7-16. Bullet and shrapnel wounds of left side of chest from .30-30 rifle bullet that passed through car door. (p. 160)
• Figure 7-17. X-ray of chest showing bullet in midline with steel fragment in left side of chest. (p. 160)
-DiMaio, Vincent J.M.: Gunshot Wounds: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques. Elsevier Science Publishing Co., Inc., New York, NY; 1985.
Keeping in mind that the massive JFK head wound as well as the head wound cited by Fackler are both exit wounds, I’m unable to determine what photo, in DiMiao’s book, depicts the "more typical 2” defect," as none of the .30-30 head wound photos, in the context of an exit wound, appear to match Ayoob’s description. It seems Ayoob habitually believes his readers are unlikely to verify the references he cites to support his claims.
DiMaio’s discussion on page 150, which refers to figure 7-8 (the photo cited by Fackler), states:
Intermediate and distant head wounds, show a wide range in the degree of severity, depending on the style of the bullet and the entrance site in the head. Anything that tends to produce instability in the bullet as it enters the head results in more extensive injuries. Thus, bullets entering the thick occipital bone cause greater injuries than those entering the temporal area. Intermediate and distant wounds of the head can be just as devastating as contact wounds (Figure 7-8).”
-Ibid.
________________________________________
Stressfire II: Another Erroneous Anecdotal Report
On page 12 of Stressfire II, Ayoob writes:
In an infamous San Jose shooting, a deranged homeless man snatched a police officer’s revolver, murdered him with it, then engaged other officers in a running gunfight. After he had been killed, another officer was found a block away dying. He was thought at first to have been slain by the cop killer with the stolen service-revolver. However, autopsy showed that a single 00 buckshot pellet fired by another officer had gone past the offender and struck the officer, entering below his ballistic vest and severing the abdominal aorta. The dead officer was between 50 and 60 yards from the officer who fired.
-Ayoob, Massad F.: StressFire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun. Massad F. and Dorothy Ayoob, Concord, NH, 1992.
In reality, investigators were unable to determine who fired the 00 buckshot pellet that killed officer Gordon Silva. It was a ricochet, and there were two officers from whom the pellet could have originated: officer Phillip Rodgers was located about 20 yards from Silva, and officer Thomas Cannell was 70+ yards away. There was no shooter between 50 and 60 yards as reported by Ayoob. Reconstruction of the shooting produced inconclusive results because Silva’s fatal wound was accurately replicated in ordnance gelatin at both 20 yards and 70+ yards.
Contrary to Ayoob’s report, Silva was not “found a block away dying.” In his police report, Rodgers describes his close proximity to Silva: “I observed officer Silva directly across from me on the sidewalk. …I took this into account as the suspect ran out and I took aim and fired at the suspect.”
Furthermore, Ayoob incorrectly reports that the pellet cut Silva’s aorta; in fact, it passed through the inferior vena cava.
________________________________________
Unique Perspective Indeed
"...Massad Ayoob has access to a unique real-world perspective of which rounds work and which don't in actual gunfights."
-Ayoob, Massad: "Top 9mm Parabellum Combat Loads." Handguns, October 1990; pp. 42–49.________________________________________
The LASD chose to go from the excellent 115 gr. Federal 9BP jacketed hollowpoint to a 147 gr. subsonic load. Nature took its course. The deputies discovered in the field that, when loaded with low-velocity hollowpoints, the 9mm was the impotent manstopper that Jeff Cooper had warned them about.
-Ayoob, Massad: “Safety, Safety, Safety.” American Handgunner, January/February 2001
________________________________________
"Sir, the information provided by Mr. Ayoob regarding poor performance of the 147gr 9mm is incorrect. This Department uses the Winchester [147gr] SXT and the performance of this bullet is outstanding."
-Bruce Harris, Training Bureau, Weapons Training, Biscailuz Center Range, Los Angeles Sheriff’s Department (e-mail to Shawn Dodson, January 2001)
Sadly, although I can continue to present additional examples of Ayoob's misinformation, I’ve proved my point.
Among his many gifts Ayoob is an exceptionally talented, prolific and successful writer. He's made great contributions to the study, understanding and application of lawful use of force, and I respect him for these achievements.
For as much as he writes he's bound to make an occasional error. He’s human and stuff happens. As with any reasonable person, I’m willing to overlook minor inaccuracies, and pardon major mistakes provided they’re acknowledged, corrected and don't happen too often. But Ayoob has given me reason to question his honesty.
In addition, the multitude of serious factual errors reported by Ayoob, a product of inaccurate anecdotal reports, combined with a refusal to acknowledge and correct them, substantially undermines his credibility as an authority on shooting incident analysis and "stopping power." A claim made by Ayoob, without valid, verifiable documentation to support it, is untrustworthy.
"There's a saying: If you suck one cock, you're a cocksucker forever. Well, if you tell one lie in court, you're a liar forever.”
-Massad Ayoob11
Ayoob was thoroughly impeached by John Hall in the Hansen case because of his misconduct as an expert witness - he shopped his opinion, i.e., his testimony supported whatever the side paying him needed him to support regardless of truth. Ayoob lied.
Anyone seeking Ayoob's expert testimony is well advised that he can be easily discredited by his history of contradictions and deceitful arguments as exemplified in Hansen and the well documented evidence presented herein.
"My 33 years as a fully sworn, part time police officer have been satisfying, rewarding, and occasionally fun, but I base little if any expertise on that part of my life."
-Massad Ayoob12
If a seemingly humble Ayoob is to be taken at his word (above) then what is the point of his self-important, "look at me I'm a cop", display of a Grantham, NH police department shield, like a corny CCW badge, when he poses/appears in popular firearms media?
Finally, Ayoob reacts emotionally when challenged. He is quick to hypocritically hurl smug, snarky personal attacks when confronted and backed into a corner by his own words and misdeeds.
"The attacks are personal – argumentum ad hominum – the last desperate refuge of the debater who has no case…."
-Ayoob, Massad: "CopTalk: The Stopping Power Debate." American Handgunner, March/April 2000; p. 74.
References/Endnotes
1. In tribute to the 20th anniversary of the FBI-Miami shootout.
2. ambackforum.com: The Leading Am Back Forum Site on the Net
3. ambackforum.com: The Leading Am Back Forum Site on the Net
4. The Gun Zone -- Mas Ayoob Responds
5. Armed and Female by Massad Ayoob Issue #63
6. Contemptuously alluding to Martin L. Fackler, M.D.
7. Ayoob, Sanow Shooting Incident Falsehoods
8. Apologies to Christopher Whitcomb
9. ambackforum.com: The Leading Am Back Forum Site on the Net
10. Lattimer, John K. M.D., Sc.D., F.A.C.S: Kennedy and Lincoln: Medical & Ballistic Comparisons of Their Assassinations. Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, New York, NY; 1980
11. News & Opinion: Finishing School (The Boston Phoenix . 11-29-99)
12. Smith & Wesson Forum
Ayoob Claim False:
“Silvertip .357 is authorized by the Bureau only for special circumstances, and it is believed that supervisor McNeill’s 2½" Combat Magnum was so charged.” (p. 193)
"[Mireles] was able to clearly distinguish between what he described as the popping sound of agents’ 9mms and .38s, the bang of McNeill’s .357 Magnum rounds, and the ‘psychologically devastating ka-boom’ of Platt’s .223 rifle." (p. 220)
Discredited By
Anecdotal report not substantiated by forensic evidence
FBI records show McNeill fired 6 rounds Winchester .38 Special +P 158gr LSWCHP from his S&W M19-3, .357 Magnum revolver. In addition, three .38 Special +P cartridges were loaded in the chamber of his revolver when it was recovered and examined. Finally, inventory of McNeill’s car, Buick LeSabre, license 516-DTK, revealed no Winchester .357 Magnum 145gr STHP ammunition within:
• http://foia.fbi.gov/shooting/shooting1a.pdf
(Adobe Reader pp. 66 & 67)
• Link Removed
(Adobe Reader pp. 18 & 19)
• http://foia.fbi.gov/shooting/shooting1a.pdf
(Adobe Reader p. 61)
Metro-Dade PD records show nine .38 Special “casings” found at rear of McNeill’s car:
Rivers, David, Sgt., Metro-Dade Police Dept: “Weapons Found at Scene.” (Forensic Analysis, Plate B, p. 8)
Neither McNeill nor Mireles dispute Anderson’s statement, “6 rounds (38+P) fired,” (Forensic Analysis, pp. 13, 112-114, 119-127)
Ayoob Claim False:
“Meanwhile, Matix has squeezed out the driver’s door of the wrecked getaway car, and he unleashes a blast of 00 buckshot at Grogan and Dove to pin them down.” (p. 199)
Discredited By
FBI records show that Matix’s shotgun was loaded with Winchester #6 birdshot:
http://foia.fbi.gov/shooting/shooting1a.pdf (Adobe Reader pp. 66 & 67)
FBI records show spent #6 birdshot recovered from Grogan/Dove’s vehicle:
http://foia.fbi.gov/shooting/shooting1a.pdf (Adobe Reader p. 57)
Ayoob Claim False:
“The buckshot has smashed into [Platt’s] face... but it has come in from a side angle, and no pellet has reached his brain.” (p. 202)
Discredited By
No evidence that buckshot "smashed into Platt's face." Autopsy report (Forensic Analysis, pp. 97-105):
Case No. 86-0969: autopsy report for PLATT, Michael L., prepared by Jay S. Barnhart, Jr, M.D., Associate Medical Examiner, Dade County Medical Examiner, dated 25 April 1986, 8 pages.
Ayoob Claim False:
"Mireles’ fourth blast and his fifth, blows out the windshield of the Buick. Matix twists in agony as he is hit by the pellets.” (p. 203)
Discredited By
No evidence that Matix was hit by any buckshot. Autopsy report (Forensic Analysis, pp. 90-96):
Case No. 86-0968: autopsy report for MATIX, William, prepared by Jay S. Barnhart, Jr, M.D., Associate Medical Examiner, Dade County Medical Examiner, dated 25 April 1986, 7 pages.
Ayoob Claim False:
“And behind the wheel, his face a bloody mask...." (p. 203)
Discredited By
Crime scene photo (Forensic Analysis, Plate IV-F, p. 84) of Platt’s body laying on ground, face up, does not agree with Ayoob’s dramatic, fabricated description
Ayoob Claim False:
"[Mireles] concentrates on the face of the copkiller at the end of the tunnel, and on his front sight, and even in broad daylight there is the flash as the Federal 158 grain lead hollowpoint .38 slug roars from the barrel of his gun and into the brain of the murderer Platt." (p. 204)
Discredited By
Autopsy report
Autopsy x-ray (Forensic Analysis, Figure IV-4, p. 71) of Platt’s head shows no projectiles penetrated the brain
FBI records show that Mireles’ revolver was loaded with Winchester ammunition:
http://foia.fbi.gov/shooting/shooting1a.pdf
(Adobe Reader pp. 66 & 67)
Ayoob Claim False:
"[McNeill] adds that he learned later that both Matix’ eardrums had been ruptured by his partner’s gunfire. (p. 214)
Discredited By
Anecdotal report not substantiated by forensic evidence
Autopsy report: examination revealed no evidence of Matix having suffered ruptured eardrums:
EXTERNAL EXAMINATION:…No blood is in the ear canals. The conjunctivae have no petechiae and the irides are blue and the pupils are round and equal and 4 millimeters in diameter….
Ayoob Claim False:
“[Mireles’] first shot had mangled the foot of the cop-killer, and the last three rounds of 12-pellet 00-buck smashed into Platt’s maxillofacial structure and also tore into the face of Matix. One pellet entered Matix’ brain." (p. 221)
Discredited By
Autopsy reports
Autopsy x-ray (Forensic Analysis, Figure IV-4, p. 71) of Platt’s head shows no projectiles having collided with or damaged the maxillofacial structure
Autopsy x-ray (Forensic Analysis, Figure IV-17, p. 76) of Matix’s head shows no projectiles penetrated the brain
Ayoob Claim False:
"...Dove fired 27 pistol shots and scored only one hit, and Grogan fired close to 20 with no hits." (p. 222)
Discredited By
FBI records show that Dove fired 20 rounds; Grogan fired nine:
• Link Removed
(Adobe Reader pp. 18)
• http://foia.fbi.gov/shooting/shooting1a.pdf
(Adobe Reader pp. 66 & 67)
Ayoob seems to think I’ve read his book, The Ayoob Files. He shouldn’t flatter himself. I merely verified photocopies of two FBI Miami shootout chapters taken from his book, that were provided to me by another person, to ensure the book was consistent with the magazine articles. I critiqued the reports presented in the book because it appeared to me, at the time, that it would be easier for interested readers to get hold of his book than two aging magazine articles. I have no reason to believe any given shooting incident report or “stopping power” claim Ayoob makes is true, as I shall continue to show.
________________________________________
Where’s the Brain?
In 1993, American Handgunner published Ayoob’s acrimonious reply to a letter from Martin L. Fackler, M.D., in which Fackler challenged assertions made by Ayoob in an article he'd written about the JFK assassination. Among several questionable claims, Ayoob’s conclusion is particularly worthy of scrutiny:
"…the head shot in frame 313 of the Zapruder film is totally incongruous with what the 6.5 Carcano ball round is known to do."
-Ayoob, Massad: "Where's the Brain." American Handgunner, 17(105): July/August 1993; pp. 12, 15.
Ayoob’s declaration is absolutely untrue.
Ayoob is obviously conversant with Lattimer’s 1980 book; in his reply to Fackler he's able to cite information buried in a single sentence on page 271. Yet Lattimer’s Figure 91, Skull Bullets,10 not only proves Ayoob wrong it exemplifies the shameless extent of his blatant dishonesty. (It appears Ayoob knew few of his readers had access to an obscure, out of print book; and of those that did, there was no mass media means to reveal his deceit. In addition, his status with the popular gun press ensured he would have the last word in replying to any criticism. However with the arrival of the Internet there are no more secrets; valid and verifiable evidence to challenge and expose misinformation can now be easily presented to a mass audience. It is no longer possible to hide behind editors and exploit limitations of the print media to betray unsuspecting readers for the purpose of protecting one's own ego and importance.)
In response to Ayoob’s nonsense, Lattimer published a detailed summary of the findings reported in his book. I present an extract from his summary, which appears after the References/Endnotes section of this reply, that describes the mechanics of JFK’s fatal head wound. (The information presented in the extract also appears in Lattimer’s book, Kennedy and Lincoln: Medical and Ballistic Comparisons of their Assassinations, albeit in a less concise format.)
In a situation that bears striking similarity to his unscrupulous Hansen testimony, an earlier magazine article comes back to bite Ayoob in the ass. Five months prior to "Where's the Brain?” Ayoob published the following:
Modern formulations of ballistic gelatin based on Fackler’s formula are extremely convenient for the experimenter, and they do indeed simulate the resistance to a bullet that would occur in the muscle tissue of a pig, which in turn closely replicates the muscle tissue of a man. Unfortunately, there are also shortcomings.
We do not shoot at the muscles. We shoot at the internal organs and do so through various intervening bodily structures. One problem with gelatin is that it is homogeneous and gives the bullet a smoothly consistent resistance throughout its path that will not occur in the human body.
The mammalian body is heterogeneous. In a tiny fraction of a second, the bullet goes through stretchy epidermis [sic], then the fibrous elasticity of muscle tissue, then perhaps the plastic density of a solid abdominal organ like the liver or spleen, and along the way it may have crashed through rigid resistance of bone. Each of these obstacles offers a different resistance to the bullet than does any homogeneous medium, and this can drastically alter the performance of the projectile in terms of both deceleration and deformation, thus radically altering the degree and the profile of the tissue damage that will now be caused. [emphasis added]
These variables need to be considered. They aren’t found in gelatin. They are found in medical reports of surviving gunshot victims and in the autopsy protocols conducted upon those who did not survive. Combined with involved personnel’s observations of exactly what the individual did immediately after being shot, we have the “anecdotal” data relied upon by Marshall and his followers. [emphasis added]
-Ayoob, Massad: “Stopping Power: A Look at the Current Controversy.” Handguns, February 1993; pp. 28–32, 87.
Thus, in February’s Handguns, Ayoob carefully explains several "shortcomings" of ordnance gelatin testing, but in the July/August issue of American Handgunner, Ayoob disingenuously contradicts himself; a block of gelatin is now so flawless it proves JFK wasn’t shot in the head with a 6.5mm Carcano bullet! In pathetic effort to present the appearance of winning a debate (which is apparently more important to Ayoob than the truth) he deceitfully attempts to misrepresent Fackler’s wound profile:
"Dr. Fackler’s suggestion is incongruous in that it is completely refuted and contradicted by his own earlier work….
"Fackler’s workup of the 6.5mm Carcano roundnose bullet indicates that it will penetrate 106cm (41+”) of flesh simulant…."
-(see Ayoob: "Where's the Brain.")
Indeed, one cannot dispute that Fackler’s wound profile illustration shows that the 6.5mm Carcano FMJ bullet produces minimal soft tissue disruption. However as shown by Lattimer, its performance in the JFK head wound is entirely consistent with a rifle bullet that strikes bone early in its wound path: it fragmented. Bone not only affects a bullet's terminal performance characteristics it can also complicate wounding effects (or as Ayoob declared: "this can drastically alter the performance of the projectile in terms of both deceleration and deformation, thus radically altering the degree and the profile of the tissue damage that will now be caused."). Fackler's bare gelatin wound profile represents uncomplicated wounding effects involving soft tissues only. Projectile/bone/soft tissue interaction are not depicted in Fackler’s bare gelatin wound profile. A block of bare gelatin in no way represents a human head. Yet Ayoob deceitfully attempts to convince his readers that it does, in total disregard of his claims to the opposite in Handguns just a few months earlier.
(Note: an extract from an article by Duncan MacPherson that confronts misconceptions about differences in soft tissue densities, as related to homogeneous ordnance gelatin testing, appears after the References/Endnotes section of this reply.)
++++++
In regard to the .30-30 photo cited by Fackler, Ayoob writes:
"Interestingly, Dr. Fackler does not cite a much more representative .30-30 soft-nose head wound in the same book, with a more typical 2” defect."
-Ibid.
Unfortunately, Ayoob did not identify the particular photo he refers to and it’s not obvious in DiMaio’s book. Altogether there are about a half-dozen photos of .30-30 gunshot wounds presented by DiMaio:
• Figure 7-5. Homicidal contact wound of right temple from .30-30 rifle. (p. 148)
• Figure 7-7. Contact chest wound from .30-30 rifle with muzzle imprint. (p. 149)
• Figure 7-8. High-velocity rifle wound of right half of head from .30-30 rifle. Bullet entered in back of head. Ejected cartridge case can be seen in hair. Second gunshot wound of left side of neck. (p. 151)
• Figure 7-9. Large stellate distant wound of entrance in back of head from .30-30 rifle. (p. 151)
• Figure 7-14. “Lead snowstorm” from .30-30 hunting bullet. (p. 157)
• Figure 7-16. Bullet and shrapnel wounds of left side of chest from .30-30 rifle bullet that passed through car door. (p. 160)
• Figure 7-17. X-ray of chest showing bullet in midline with steel fragment in left side of chest. (p. 160)
-DiMaio, Vincent J.M.: Gunshot Wounds: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques. Elsevier Science Publishing Co., Inc., New York, NY; 1985.
Keeping in mind that the massive JFK head wound as well as the head wound cited by Fackler are both exit wounds, I’m unable to determine what photo, in DiMiao’s book, depicts the "more typical 2” defect," as none of the .30-30 head wound photos, in the context of an exit wound, appear to match Ayoob’s description. It seems Ayoob habitually believes his readers are unlikely to verify the references he cites to support his claims.
DiMaio’s discussion on page 150, which refers to figure 7-8 (the photo cited by Fackler), states:
Intermediate and distant head wounds, show a wide range in the degree of severity, depending on the style of the bullet and the entrance site in the head. Anything that tends to produce instability in the bullet as it enters the head results in more extensive injuries. Thus, bullets entering the thick occipital bone cause greater injuries than those entering the temporal area. Intermediate and distant wounds of the head can be just as devastating as contact wounds (Figure 7-8).”
-Ibid.
________________________________________
Stressfire II: Another Erroneous Anecdotal Report
On page 12 of Stressfire II, Ayoob writes:
In an infamous San Jose shooting, a deranged homeless man snatched a police officer’s revolver, murdered him with it, then engaged other officers in a running gunfight. After he had been killed, another officer was found a block away dying. He was thought at first to have been slain by the cop killer with the stolen service-revolver. However, autopsy showed that a single 00 buckshot pellet fired by another officer had gone past the offender and struck the officer, entering below his ballistic vest and severing the abdominal aorta. The dead officer was between 50 and 60 yards from the officer who fired.
-Ayoob, Massad F.: StressFire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun. Massad F. and Dorothy Ayoob, Concord, NH, 1992.
In reality, investigators were unable to determine who fired the 00 buckshot pellet that killed officer Gordon Silva. It was a ricochet, and there were two officers from whom the pellet could have originated: officer Phillip Rodgers was located about 20 yards from Silva, and officer Thomas Cannell was 70+ yards away. There was no shooter between 50 and 60 yards as reported by Ayoob. Reconstruction of the shooting produced inconclusive results because Silva’s fatal wound was accurately replicated in ordnance gelatin at both 20 yards and 70+ yards.
Contrary to Ayoob’s report, Silva was not “found a block away dying.” In his police report, Rodgers describes his close proximity to Silva: “I observed officer Silva directly across from me on the sidewalk. …I took this into account as the suspect ran out and I took aim and fired at the suspect.”
Furthermore, Ayoob incorrectly reports that the pellet cut Silva’s aorta; in fact, it passed through the inferior vena cava.
________________________________________
Unique Perspective Indeed
"...Massad Ayoob has access to a unique real-world perspective of which rounds work and which don't in actual gunfights."
-Ayoob, Massad: "Top 9mm Parabellum Combat Loads." Handguns, October 1990; pp. 42–49.________________________________________
The LASD chose to go from the excellent 115 gr. Federal 9BP jacketed hollowpoint to a 147 gr. subsonic load. Nature took its course. The deputies discovered in the field that, when loaded with low-velocity hollowpoints, the 9mm was the impotent manstopper that Jeff Cooper had warned them about.
-Ayoob, Massad: “Safety, Safety, Safety.” American Handgunner, January/February 2001
________________________________________
"Sir, the information provided by Mr. Ayoob regarding poor performance of the 147gr 9mm is incorrect. This Department uses the Winchester [147gr] SXT and the performance of this bullet is outstanding."
-Bruce Harris, Training Bureau, Weapons Training, Biscailuz Center Range, Los Angeles Sheriff’s Department (e-mail to Shawn Dodson, January 2001)
Sadly, although I can continue to present additional examples of Ayoob's misinformation, I’ve proved my point.
Among his many gifts Ayoob is an exceptionally talented, prolific and successful writer. He's made great contributions to the study, understanding and application of lawful use of force, and I respect him for these achievements.
For as much as he writes he's bound to make an occasional error. He’s human and stuff happens. As with any reasonable person, I’m willing to overlook minor inaccuracies, and pardon major mistakes provided they’re acknowledged, corrected and don't happen too often. But Ayoob has given me reason to question his honesty.
In addition, the multitude of serious factual errors reported by Ayoob, a product of inaccurate anecdotal reports, combined with a refusal to acknowledge and correct them, substantially undermines his credibility as an authority on shooting incident analysis and "stopping power." A claim made by Ayoob, without valid, verifiable documentation to support it, is untrustworthy.
"There's a saying: If you suck one cock, you're a cocksucker forever. Well, if you tell one lie in court, you're a liar forever.”
-Massad Ayoob11
Ayoob was thoroughly impeached by John Hall in the Hansen case because of his misconduct as an expert witness - he shopped his opinion, i.e., his testimony supported whatever the side paying him needed him to support regardless of truth. Ayoob lied.
Anyone seeking Ayoob's expert testimony is well advised that he can be easily discredited by his history of contradictions and deceitful arguments as exemplified in Hansen and the well documented evidence presented herein.
"My 33 years as a fully sworn, part time police officer have been satisfying, rewarding, and occasionally fun, but I base little if any expertise on that part of my life."
-Massad Ayoob12
If a seemingly humble Ayoob is to be taken at his word (above) then what is the point of his self-important, "look at me I'm a cop", display of a Grantham, NH police department shield, like a corny CCW badge, when he poses/appears in popular firearms media?
Finally, Ayoob reacts emotionally when challenged. He is quick to hypocritically hurl smug, snarky personal attacks when confronted and backed into a corner by his own words and misdeeds.
"The attacks are personal – argumentum ad hominum – the last desperate refuge of the debater who has no case…."
-Ayoob, Massad: "CopTalk: The Stopping Power Debate." American Handgunner, March/April 2000; p. 74.
References/Endnotes
1. In tribute to the 20th anniversary of the FBI-Miami shootout.
2. ambackforum.com: The Leading Am Back Forum Site on the Net
3. ambackforum.com: The Leading Am Back Forum Site on the Net
4. The Gun Zone -- Mas Ayoob Responds
5. Armed and Female by Massad Ayoob Issue #63
6. Contemptuously alluding to Martin L. Fackler, M.D.
7. Ayoob, Sanow Shooting Incident Falsehoods
8. Apologies to Christopher Whitcomb
9. ambackforum.com: The Leading Am Back Forum Site on the Net
10. Lattimer, John K. M.D., Sc.D., F.A.C.S: Kennedy and Lincoln: Medical & Ballistic Comparisons of Their Assassinations. Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, New York, NY; 1980
11. News & Opinion: Finishing School (The Boston Phoenix . 11-29-99)
12. Smith & Wesson Forum
MamaLiberty
New member
I've read a great deal by Ayoob. I tried hard to understand how his experience and the things he taught could help me in my own quest to become a good trainer and an effective self defender.
The more I read, the harder it got. Finally, I realized that I could not trust anything he wrote!!
He's a cop. He writes for cops. He trains cops. He thinks cops can do no wrong. He teaches cop mentality and methods.
Ordinary people who are defending themselves are endangering themselves and others if they adopt cop ideas or tactics. This has become crystal clear to me over the years.
That he is also an arrogant person who is inconsistent and, perhaps, even untruthful just ads weight to my conclusions. His writings should especially never be suggested for or given to women just learning self defense. Totally inappropriate because he evidently does not have a clue about women and their needs.
The more I read, the harder it got. Finally, I realized that I could not trust anything he wrote!!
He's a cop. He writes for cops. He trains cops. He thinks cops can do no wrong. He teaches cop mentality and methods.
Ordinary people who are defending themselves are endangering themselves and others if they adopt cop ideas or tactics. This has become crystal clear to me over the years.
That he is also an arrogant person who is inconsistent and, perhaps, even untruthful just ads weight to my conclusions. His writings should especially never be suggested for or given to women just learning self defense. Totally inappropriate because he evidently does not have a clue about women and their needs.
the dark
New member
I have read a lot of his work over the years and although serviceable, it is rare that it is especially impressive and I have often been left with a nagging doubt about how it is he came to garner such fame and attention (I think sometimes that comes form saying things like "cock sucker" - some people love that). I have never considered him dishonest, but perhaps opportunistic and seemingly egotistical.
I would not cite the prolific nature of his (or anyone's) writings as evidence of expertise or credentials deserving of respect. Lots of folks write a lot and much of it is not noteworthy. I will say that a lot of his later stuff is simply reworked and recycled versions of his old stuff. Credentials are never a guarantee.
I would say that he be read and evaluated in the context of popular gun media as a market and what is worthwhile be used, what is not be ignored; that he not be demonised or deified (which seems to happen quite a bit).
BC1
,
That's true of many of us. Success is sometimes based in maximizing opportunity. The same was said of me in the investment world but that was the nature of the business.
Having attended two classes with him I found him to be entertaining and very knowlegeable, especially regarding the aftermath of a defensive shooting. As with any education one should take away what's valuable and that may differ between any two people.
leadsender
New member
As the kids would say, I am not understanding the hating on this guy. I am a former merchant seaman and I like a lil salt in the air and a lil salty language in the class room. What a boring sleep fest most classes would be if the teachers did nothing to help excite learning. I assume that MAS was not talking to a bunch of kids but, a room full of adults. I have a couple of his books and they are great reading and training aids.
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There had to at least 13 lies in the above article.
Are you saying that lying is not dishonest?
And he has never disputed this article.
That should say something.
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