Shortbuseinstein
New member
Hope you don't mind but I am posting a link to this story instead of reposting it.
Jacksonville
Jacksonville
Jacksonville, AL Unlawfull Arrest For Open Carry
- Thread starter Shortbuseinstein
- Start date
Shortbuseinstein
New member
03/31/2011
To Whom It May Concern:
Today while conducting personal business in Jacksonville, AL, I stopped by First Educators Credit Union and was confronted by Officer Clayton. He asked me if I had a badge to go with my sidearm. I advised that I did not but that Alabama law does not require that I have one. Officer Clayton ordered me to put my sidearm in my truck or I would be immediately arrested. I advised him that he was violating my civil rights and that he was acting unlawfully. I then proceeded out the door and back to my truck where I left my firearm.
Upon reentering the bank, Officer Ervin and Jordon surrounded me and Officer Clayton stood in front of me as I tried to withdraw money from my account. I advised Officer Clayton that although his request was unconstitutional, I had complied and I would like a moment to finish my transaction with the bank without being harassed. By this point the Officers had made such a seen that they had alarmed other patrons and had me concerned for my safety.
Officer Clayton told me I was not allowed to open carry a firearm off my personal property. Officer Clayton then told me he needed to see my ID. I asked if I was being detained. He told me that he needed my ID. I asked if I had done something wrong and then gave him my ID. I stated that I felt that he was still violating my civil rights. Officer Clayton told me I was lucky that I wasn’t being arrested at that time. One of the other officers instructed me to step outside. I stated that considering that I felt like my civil rights had already been violated, I should stay inside where there are cameras and witnesses. Officer Clayton ran my ID, told me he would be filling a report and that I could be arrested in the next couple days. He also said that if he sees me in public again with a sidearm that I will be arrested.
After leaving the bank, I drove directly to the police station and spoke to Commanding Officer Bill DeLeon. He advised me that the officers are correct and that I am not to leave my personal property with an open carry firearm. He stated “when I received a conceal carry permit, that states on the back, it is not a permit to open carry, I agreed to those terms.” I told him that a county pistol permit can’t supersede the Alabama Constitution or the Attorney General’s rulings on such matters. He advised me that it did and that he wasn’t going to argue with me.
This account is a statement of events to the best of my knowledge and is not an exact transcript.
To Whom It May Concern:
Today while conducting personal business in Jacksonville, AL, I stopped by First Educators Credit Union and was confronted by Officer Clayton. He asked me if I had a badge to go with my sidearm. I advised that I did not but that Alabama law does not require that I have one. Officer Clayton ordered me to put my sidearm in my truck or I would be immediately arrested. I advised him that he was violating my civil rights and that he was acting unlawfully. I then proceeded out the door and back to my truck where I left my firearm.
Upon reentering the bank, Officer Ervin and Jordon surrounded me and Officer Clayton stood in front of me as I tried to withdraw money from my account. I advised Officer Clayton that although his request was unconstitutional, I had complied and I would like a moment to finish my transaction with the bank without being harassed. By this point the Officers had made such a seen that they had alarmed other patrons and had me concerned for my safety.
Officer Clayton told me I was not allowed to open carry a firearm off my personal property. Officer Clayton then told me he needed to see my ID. I asked if I was being detained. He told me that he needed my ID. I asked if I had done something wrong and then gave him my ID. I stated that I felt that he was still violating my civil rights. Officer Clayton told me I was lucky that I wasn’t being arrested at that time. One of the other officers instructed me to step outside. I stated that considering that I felt like my civil rights had already been violated, I should stay inside where there are cameras and witnesses. Officer Clayton ran my ID, told me he would be filling a report and that I could be arrested in the next couple days. He also said that if he sees me in public again with a sidearm that I will be arrested.
After leaving the bank, I drove directly to the police station and spoke to Commanding Officer Bill DeLeon. He advised me that the officers are correct and that I am not to leave my personal property with an open carry firearm. He stated “when I received a conceal carry permit, that states on the back, it is not a permit to open carry, I agreed to those terms.” I told him that a county pistol permit can’t supersede the Alabama Constitution or the Attorney General’s rulings on such matters. He advised me that it did and that he wasn’t going to argue with me.
This account is a statement of events to the best of my knowledge and is not an exact transcript.
Shortbuseinstein
New member
I gave Chief Thompson Docs from the site along with this letter on Friday and followed up with an email today.
Chief Thompson,
I wanted to follow up with you regarding last weeks meeting.
I am hopping that you have had a chance to review the documentation that I provided. I have two follow up questions.
1. Was there a report filed on the day in question? If so how would I go about getting a copy for my records?
2. How will I be treated by your staff when legally open caring in the future?
Thank you for taking time to discuss my concerns.
As always stay safe
Jason Tulley
This is his responce.
I have read the documentation that you presented. I am in agreement with some of the interpretations and not others. I have gone back and read the state codes and the case commentaries that accompany many of them and I am of the opinion that open carrying where you go onto property not your own, i.e. stores,etc. you should get permission from the premise manager or other personnel who may be in charge. I think that assuming that you are welcome to open carry on others premises is assuming to much. I also feel that a simplier way to determine this is to have every premise in town post in plain view a sign that says who may carry a firearm into their premise. Of course that is not going to happen and I can find no requirement of stores to do this. I advise you to error on the side of caution and call ahead to places you care to travel and open carry. So they won't call the police reporting the matter.
Yes there was a report written. They are not open records until the investigation is closed.
My staff and I generally feel that open carry on public right of ways is accepatable and in your vehicle with a permit.
Be careful.
Chief Thompson,
I wanted to follow up with you regarding last weeks meeting.
I am hopping that you have had a chance to review the documentation that I provided. I have two follow up questions.
1. Was there a report filed on the day in question? If so how would I go about getting a copy for my records?
2. How will I be treated by your staff when legally open caring in the future?
Thank you for taking time to discuss my concerns.
As always stay safe
Jason Tulley
This is his responce.
I have read the documentation that you presented. I am in agreement with some of the interpretations and not others. I have gone back and read the state codes and the case commentaries that accompany many of them and I am of the opinion that open carrying where you go onto property not your own, i.e. stores,etc. you should get permission from the premise manager or other personnel who may be in charge. I think that assuming that you are welcome to open carry on others premises is assuming to much. I also feel that a simplier way to determine this is to have every premise in town post in plain view a sign that says who may carry a firearm into their premise. Of course that is not going to happen and I can find no requirement of stores to do this. I advise you to error on the side of caution and call ahead to places you care to travel and open carry. So they won't call the police reporting the matter.
Yes there was a report written. They are not open records until the investigation is closed.
My staff and I generally feel that open carry on public right of ways is accepatable and in your vehicle with a permit.
Be careful.
Shortbuseinstein
New member
This is the email from the chief
The investigation is complete, the prosecutor has reviewed the case and the magistrate has issued a misdemeanor warrant for your arrest. The charge is"Carrying a Pistol on Premises not his Own" and the bond has been set at $300. You may come to the police department and turn yourself in and you will be allowed to sign your own bond and will be given a court date in Municipal Court.
I would appreciate it if you could come in within the next couple day
The investigation is complete, the prosecutor has reviewed the case and the magistrate has issued a misdemeanor warrant for your arrest. The charge is"Carrying a Pistol on Premises not his Own" and the bond has been set at $300. You may come to the police department and turn yourself in and you will be allowed to sign your own bond and will be given a court date in Municipal Court.
I would appreciate it if you could come in within the next couple day
Gordon Shumway
New member
Good luck.
I am in different state
Do you want a any type of gun charge on your record?
You better hire a very good, well known, respected attorney. Game ain't over yet.
It can easily cost you $2,000 to be judged, "Not guilty, case dismissed, give him his stuff back."
Been there, done that.
I was offered a plea bargain right before the case:
forfeit my weapon
pay a $300 fine for a "misdemeanor violation of a city ordinance", whatever that means.
I forced the court case, went before the judge who chewed out the arresting officer,
and I won, hands down.
But I might not have won if I had not had a very highly respected attorney.
I am in different state
Do you want a any type of gun charge on your record?
You better hire a very good, well known, respected attorney. Game ain't over yet.
It can easily cost you $2,000 to be judged, "Not guilty, case dismissed, give him his stuff back."
Been there, done that.
I was offered a plea bargain right before the case:
forfeit my weapon
pay a $300 fine for a "misdemeanor violation of a city ordinance", whatever that means.
I forced the court case, went before the judge who chewed out the arresting officer,
and I won, hands down.
But I might not have won if I had not had a very highly respected attorney.
Because we don't live in a police state. But once everyone follows the route you have chosen, it will become a police state. I don't understand why you are so hell-bent on licking the boots and polishing the badges of police who act like gestapo.
We won't gain our freedoms back by being satisfied with the rearmost seat on the bus.
BC1
,
Navy, there is truth in your words and I support OC for those who choose. For me it's a tactical defense element. As my dad (a former U.S. Naval officer) taught me, "I would take treachery, stealth and experience over youth, showmanship and braun anyday." Simple problem is that LEO encounters are going to plague this topic because we can't change the sheepish nature of the scared liberal anti crowd and many LEO officers don't even know the laws in their own jurisdiction. The laws in every state are convoluted and few fully understand their own laws. Post after post talks this issue (confrontations over OC) but rarely do I see posts about LEO hassles from CCW. My view is the best fight I make is the one I don't have so avoidance of confrontation (for sheepish anti's or even by LEO) is at the forefront of my thinking. I prefer to fly under the radar. I'm the hand up Mona-Lisa's skirt. The one nobody expects to act with extreme and deliberate prejudice against my attacker. I'm a nasty surprise. But if the law allows it, go ahead and OC, it doesn't bother me to see someone carrying a gun openly as he pobably is a law abiding citizen.
BC1,
I guess a lot of our decisions depends upon how we perceive our surroundings. I am going to base my life and my actions in life about what I feel is best for me and my family and within the boundaries of what the law allows. If someone else doesn't like my decision that I have made about what is best for me and my family, then they can deal with it. Also where I live there is a only a very small minority of people who have a problem with a gun carried properly anyway and the vast majority of police in my area are fully aware of the law, so I just don't regularly experience the "bleating sheep" syndrome because of my gun.
What is at the forefront of my thinking is the deterrence factor of a visible firearm. There are much easier ways for a criminal to get what they want than to tangle with an armed citizen for it. Criminals tend to take the path of least resistence in order to avoid getting caught or to keep a simple robbery charge from becoming an attempted murder charge. It's just so much easier for the criminal to wait a couple minutes for me to leave or to go down to the next block where nobody seems to be carrying a gun. And the criminal who bursts into a location, guns displayed, yelling for everybody to get down isn't going to be looking at any one person in particular close enough to notice a holstered gun anyway, unless that person happens to be wearing the matching uniform and badge. In that situation, it takes less movement and less chance of being noticed if the open carrier should decide to draw his gun, then trying to get it out of concealment.
There's nothing wrong with concealed carry or open carry. So long as we do what we feel is best for us and not try to force that decision upon others or chastise them for their decision, such as the "wild west", "cowboy", and "political activist" comments that some "pro-gun" people like to throw at open carriers.
I guess a lot of our decisions depends upon how we perceive our surroundings. I am going to base my life and my actions in life about what I feel is best for me and my family and within the boundaries of what the law allows. If someone else doesn't like my decision that I have made about what is best for me and my family, then they can deal with it. Also where I live there is a only a very small minority of people who have a problem with a gun carried properly anyway and the vast majority of police in my area are fully aware of the law, so I just don't regularly experience the "bleating sheep" syndrome because of my gun.
What is at the forefront of my thinking is the deterrence factor of a visible firearm. There are much easier ways for a criminal to get what they want than to tangle with an armed citizen for it. Criminals tend to take the path of least resistence in order to avoid getting caught or to keep a simple robbery charge from becoming an attempted murder charge. It's just so much easier for the criminal to wait a couple minutes for me to leave or to go down to the next block where nobody seems to be carrying a gun. And the criminal who bursts into a location, guns displayed, yelling for everybody to get down isn't going to be looking at any one person in particular close enough to notice a holstered gun anyway, unless that person happens to be wearing the matching uniform and badge. In that situation, it takes less movement and less chance of being noticed if the open carrier should decide to draw his gun, then trying to get it out of concealment.
There's nothing wrong with concealed carry or open carry. So long as we do what we feel is best for us and not try to force that decision upon others or chastise them for their decision, such as the "wild west", "cowboy", and "political activist" comments that some "pro-gun" people like to throw at open carriers.
Oldgrunt
Well-known member
Shortbuseinstein: As has been mentioned before and if you can afford it, get a good attorney. You are dealing with a bunch of LEOs who are the stereotypical types found in movies about the south. We have laws down here that plainly state our rights but they are ignored through fear and/or intimidation. A good attorney can straighten things out for you but it could get expensive. Go to the Alabama forum and contact ALRanger and explain your situation. He is active in this type of activity and may be able to help. Good luck.
Doc Mustang
New member
I would modify this advice to you cannot afford NOT to have an attorney. It does not matter what the cost. The cost of losing this case (more likely if you attempt to defend yourself) is too high to leave anything to chance.
I really believe that a good attorney will be able to get this thrown out before trial. That is a bargain at twice the price.
Shortbuseinstein
New member
BC1: I have CC for around 14 years and OC for 1 1/2 years with out any problems. Well except this one.... I am being charged with Carrying a Pistol On Property Not My Own. It would seem that if I let this go that they can charge anyone OC or CC. Heck they can charge someone for having it in their car and driving on to private property. I don't own the local gun range and I discharge weapons there.
NavyLT: Well said!
Oldgrunt and Doc: I have a good attorney in fact he is not my first one on this case. My other attny seemed like a good guy but suggested I take a plea and do 6 months probation. I have also talked with AlRanger he has been a big help.
NavyLT: Well said!
Oldgrunt and Doc: I have a good attorney in fact he is not my first one on this case. My other attny seemed like a good guy but suggested I take a plea and do 6 months probation. I have also talked with AlRanger he has been a big help.
Doc Mustang
New member
Any attorney who suggests you take a plea, knowing that AL case law AND every AG opinion written in the State of AL on the subject of open carry in general and the law you were charged under in particular, supports the position that open carry is legal, and carrying that carrying a pistol on property not your own refers ONLY to UNLICENSED CONCEALED carry and NOT to OPEN carry, should be disbarred. If your initial attorney was unaware of the relevent case law and AG opinions he is clearly not qualified to argue your case and you should find another attorney.
Alabama Open Carry
Alabama Open Carry
Shortbuseinstein
New member
Doc: I have a new attny.
Well I know some will not like this but I say make it an expensive lesson for them to learn. From what you have posted you have been more then respectful to the officers illegal demands and you complied with them. So I say make it cost the city enough money to were the city officials will correct or fire the police chief, prosecutor and the magistrate for costing the city money that had to come from somewhere to cover their dumb ass mistake.
Doc Mustang
New member
I gathered that from your previous post. My previous statement could be summed up as follows: If your first attorney KNEW the relevent case law and AG opinions and recommended you take a plea, he should be DISBARRED for malpractice. If He was ignorant then finding another attorney will suffice.
Ringo
A WATCHMAN
Absolutely!! :shout:
BC1
,
If you take the probation will it affect your gun ownership? Have you had an opinion from another attorney? Fighting might be more expensive but taking a guilty pleas is admitting you did something wrong as you generally must verbally allocute your guilt before the court. If you are within your rights then fight if you can. Don't let the state have a precedent case to show what you did was wrong. That may be the best present you can give to others who OC.
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