It's pure luck if the bad guy doesn't have a .22 auto.

[yuppor]

cause there;s millions of them. The jennings 22 can be had for as little as $50 used, and costs very little to practice with (quite a bit) and at the typical sub 10 ft ranges seen in civilian self defense, anyone can hit you 4-5x per second with such a .22. I'd much rather face some punk who has a 357 snub than a Woodsman .22lr, ANY day. Just because a .22 aint likely to stop you instantly is no predictor of whether or not it kills you, thru blood loss, organ damage, or infection. It can also destroy nerves or joints, crippling you for life. If, say, you lose sexual function from a .22 hit, did you "win", that fight? I'd tend to say "not by very much of a margin". The guy you put a .45 ball rd thru (his butt, or bicep, lets say) who then surrenders and witnesses keep you from burning into the ground, will probably heal up just fine!

I personlly know 2 guys who put .45's down their legs. Both were ok on crutches in a very few days, walking normally in a month or so. I also know 2 guys who put .22's down their legs. One suffered a shattered ankle, and very nearly never walked again (but turned out ok) and another was in a leg cast, with a cut artery and buggered up nerve) for months. He turned out ok, too. Dont kid yourself that that guy with "only" a .25 or a .22lr is any less of a threat than a guy with a 12 ga. Both are over the top dangerous.

 

[Gatherer]

Sounds like you know some pretty careless guy's. :sad:

 

[BluesStringer]

I personlly know 2 guys who put .45's down their legs. Both were ok on crutches in a very few days, walking normally in a month or so. I also know 2 guys who put .22's down their legs. One suffered a shattered ankle, and very nearly never walked again (but turned out ok) and another was in a leg cast, with a cut artery and buggered up nerve) for months. He turned out ok, too. Dont kid yourself that that guy with "only" a .25 or a .22lr is any less of a threat than a guy with a 12 ga. Both are over the top dangerous.

You can find multiple threads where I support anyone's right to carry any weapon they're comfortable with without any criticism from me, but the bold text above is just plain sophistry. Your anecdotes don't contradict modern research on ballistics and/or stopping power for a given round, and at close range, a 12 ga. is at the top of that list, and .22 and .25 are at the bottom, with .22 mag running in between the two in most studies. I would advise you not to kid yourself that there aren't a lot of highly-experienced shooters on this forum who know that what you're saying above is patently false.

I hope you aren't going to the range with the four morons who "put" rounds into their legs too. Your time on this Earth could be severely abbreviated if your circle of friends has that many negligent discharges in it! I honestly can't say I have personal knowledge of more than one negligent discharge in my 40 years as a gun enthusiast/shooter. If you personally know four people who have negligently shot themselves, you need a new, better-trained class of friends.

Blues

 

[gejoslin]

Even tho I do like plinking with my 22lr carrying it for self defense isn't on my list of approved weapons. I put my trust in the larger calibers with large cap. mags. YMMV.

 

[Blackhandtug]

any gun is better than no gun

 

[mspt_99]

any gun is better than no gun

NO one is arguing that point as that isn't the topic at hand here. OP is suggesting that the .22 and the 12 gauge are somehow equally dangerous despite all evidence to the contrary.

 

[BluesStringer]

any gun is better than no gun

NO one is arguing that point as that isn't the topic at hand here. OP is suggesting that the .22 and the 12 gauge are somehow equally dangerous despite all evidence to the contrary.

And to boot, using anecdotal evidence of an incredible four people the OP claims to "personally know" who shot themselves somehow. I find that very hard to believe, which makes his lack of understanding about ballistics and stopping power very easy to believe.

Blues

 

[yuppor]

I never said a word about stopping power. I just said that a guy with "only" a .22lr handgun is every bit as dangerous as a guy with any other sort of gun, if not more so, because of the ease of getting multiple hits/practice with such a gun. Mark Deeds and *********** were the .45 "hittees", Roger Schuete and Kevin Ryan were the .22 hittees. Kev shot himself in the thigh, during a fast draw with a .22lr conversion unit on a gold cup 1911, in ILlinois, about 1974. It'll probably be in the papers. Deeds shot himself in the leg with a 1911 and ball in SE asia, 1972, Sheathelm put a cast lrn reload .45 down his leg in ILL, about 1979. He was in charge of training for the Sec Of State security guards at the time! :_) That's what mixing up DA and cocked and locked SA draw strokes can do for you. they carried 357's at the time. Roger put a .22 short into his ankle, I'm not sure when, but he showed me the scars from the surgeries, back in 1977 or so! He was thumbcocking a ruger Single 6 during a fast draw. Just because you aint been around much doesn't mean that others haven't.

 

[nontechguy]

Does that mean you have to shoot first, and more then once?

 

[BluesStringer]

I never said a word about stopping power. I just said that a guy with "only" a .22lr handgun is every bit as dangerous as a guy with any other sort of gun, if not more so, because of the ease of getting multiple hits/practice with such a gun.

You specifically equated the lethality potential between a .22 or .25 and a 12 ga. shotgun at the "sub 10 ft. range." As such, I'll put my nine projectiles with each pull of the trigger out of my 12 ga. in a very tight pattern at the sub 10 ft. range up against any number of rounds out of a .22 or .25 as being far more dangerous.

Look, it's like I said right off the bat, carry any weapon you're comfortable with. I'm not arguing that you shouldn't carry a .22 if that's your choice. I'm just correcting your absurd statement that that choice is "more" dangerous to someone you might have to shoot at close range than a shotgun or a .45 or almost any round than the two you mentioned. Both science and common sense contradicts your assertion.

Mark Deeds and ************ were the .45 "hittees", Roger Schuete and Kevin Ryan were the .22 hittees. Kev shot himself in the thigh, during a fast draw with a .22lr conversion unit on a gold cup 1911, in ILlinois, about 1974. It'll probably be in the papers. Deeds shot himself in the leg with a 1911 and ball in SE asia, 1972, Sheathelm put a cast lrn reload .45 down his leg in ILL, about 1979. He was in charge of training for the Sec Of State security guards at the time! :_) That's what mixing up DA and cocked and locked SA draw strokes can do for you. they carried 357's at the time. Roger put a .22 short into his ankle, I'm not sure when, but he showed me the scars from the surgeries, back in 1977 or so! He was thumbcocking a ruger Single 6 during a fast draw.

Assuming all that is true, then I go back to what I originally said: You need a new and better-trained circle of friends.

Just because you aint been around much doesn't mean that others haven't.

So knowing four careless morons who shot themselves means you've "been around" more than me? Quite a leap of logic you're taking there. If we're going to get into a d i c k-measuring contest over who surrounds themselves with more imbeciles, I'll bow out now. You win.
Link Removed

Blues

 

[tricolordad]

I never said a word about stopping power. I just said that a guy with "only" a .22lr handgun is every bit as dangerous as a guy with any other sort of gun, if not more so, because of the ease of getting multiple hits/practice with such a gun. Mark Deeds and ***************** were the .45 "hittees", Roger Schuete and Kevin Ryan were the .22 hittees. Kev shot himself in the thigh, during a fast draw with a .22lr conversion unit on a gold cup 1911, in ILlinois, about 1974. It'll probably be in the papers. Deeds shot himself in the leg with a 1911 and ball in SE asia, 1972, Sheathelm put a cast lrn reload .45 down his leg in ILL, about 1979. He was in charge of training for the Sec Of State security guards at the time! :_) That's what mixing up DA and cocked and locked SA draw strokes can do for you. they carried 357's at the time. Roger put a .22 short into his ankle, I'm not sure when, but he showed me the scars from the surgeries, back in 1977 or so! He was thumbcocking a ruger Single 6 during a fast draw. Just because you aint been around much doesn't mean that others haven't.

True about the .22. Just watched an episode of COPS, guy shot once with a .22, center of mass. Died within 30 seconds behind an Autozone. Cop found a shiny silver casing in the grass, looked to me to be a CCI Stinger casing, which I have 10 of loaded in my P22 sitting behind my head at the moment on the headboard. "stopping power" is a highly fluid term. It's almost a myth, as there is no magic caliber. Still, I carry .40 more than anything because I like a round that can punch through body armor, but I do carry a .22 and feel safe with it because I'm not so ignorant as to believe that the most commonly used caliber in self defense situations is ineffective.

 

[tricolordad]

I'll bow out now. You win.

Probably a good idea. Nobody cares to see you call anyone names that only start with the letter V.

 

[Bob_M]

I never said a word about stopping power. I just said that a guy with "only" a .22lr handgun is every bit as dangerous as a guy with any other sort of gun, if not more so, because of the ease of getting multiple hits/practice with such a gun. Mark Deeds and ****************** were the .45 "hittees", Roger Schuete and Kevin Ryan were the .22 hittees. Kev shot himself in the thigh, during a fast draw with a .22lr conversion unit on a gold cup 1911, in ILlinois, about 1974. It'll probably be in the papers. Deeds shot himself in the leg with a 1911 and ball in SE asia, 1972, Sheathelm put a cast lrn reload .45 down his leg in ILL, about 1979. He was in charge of training for the Sec Of State security guards at the time! :_) That's what mixing up DA and cocked and locked SA draw strokes can do for you. they carried 357's at the time. Roger put a .22 short into his ankle, I'm not sure when, but he showed me the scars from the surgeries, back in 1977 or so! He was thumbcocking a ruger Single 6 during a fast draw. Just because you aint been around much doesn't mean that others haven't.

Oh, And don't forget this guy. :laugh:

 

[Hoganbeg]

.40 [S&W] will punch through body armor?

 

[BluesStringer]

If we're going to get into a d i c k-measuring contest over who surrounds themselves with more imbeciles, I'll bow out now. You win.

Probably a good idea. Nobody cares to see you call anyone names that only start with the letter V.

Wow, look. Just one mention of the word imbecile and one shows up.

.40 [S&W] will punch through body armor?

Well, if everyone is using the "most commonly used caliber in self defense," (supposedly .22 caliber) who would need body armor that can withstand hits from a .40 caliber anyway?

And who worries about punching through body armor unless you're planning to shoot cops or armored car guards to begin with?

Tricolordad is always good for a laugh, ya gotta give him that.

Blues

 

[tricolordad]

Wow, look. Just one mention of the word imbecile and one shows up.



Well, if everyone is using the "most commonly used caliber in self defense," (supposedly .22 caliber) who would need body armor that can withstand hits from a .40 caliber anyway?

And who worries about punching through body armor unless you're planning to shoot cops or armored car guards to begin with?

Tricolordad is always good for a laugh, ya gotta give him that.

Blues

Bluhbluhbluhbluhbluhbluh!!! And apparently you've never been shot. I have. If 9mm (9x19) got me through a vest, I'm sure that .40 (10x22) which is bigger and carries more energy can do it as well. All vests fail, they're only good for a couple rounds anyways.

Blues, aren't you a prepper? Who are you planning on fighting? C'mon, admit it, who will be coming for you on doomsday...the big bad scary government is coming to confiscate your guns. You said it yourself.

You'd think that with a molon labe image (aimed at the government) in your signature, you wouldn't walk yourself into that one. Good laugh though bubbles.

 

[tricolordad]

.40 [S&W] will punch through body armor?

Yes. So will 9mm and .380. A vest will fail after a few rounds.

Two sources were used to obtain the data. For the survey, 332 officers were contacted. Data from 136 additional cases were reviewed using only files. All data involved events occurring in the United States involving sworn police officers between the years of 1972 and 2002. Shootings involved handguns (77 percent), shotguns (13 percent), and rifles (6 percent), with 4 percent of shootings coming from unknown firearms. Officers were struck from 1 to 36 times; 75 percent were shot only once or twice. Distances varied from direct contact to 300 feet; 55 percent were shot within six feet.

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/...action=display&article_id=1571&issue_id=82008

There's also a *gasp!* shocking occurence of this study saying exactly what I am saying! Vests rated to stop the threat failed more often than vests not rated to stop the threat (caliber). There is also no real correlation to obesity being the cause as the numbers are sporadic.

Imagine that.

 

[Martin Hruz]

Anyone hear of a study that explored data around one shot stops? I can't remember where I was exposed to it... but I was pretty shocked to learn that EVERY calibre had recorded one shot stops of a perp... but it went on to explore what calibers were most LIKELY to producs the stopping power...so yeah, .22's CAN be lethal... just not as likely to be. What mainly stuck with me is that Hydra Shocks are a good thing for my carry.

 

[Hoganbeg]

Anyone hear of a study that explored data around one shot stops? I can't remember where I was exposed to it... but I was pretty shocked to learn that EVERY calibre had recorded one shot stops of a perp... but it went on to explore what calibers were most LIKELY to producs the stopping power...so yeah, .22's CAN be lethal... just not as likely to be. What mainly stuck with me is that Hydra Shocks are a good thing for my carry.

Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall & Edwin J. Sanow

It's fascinating reading although the methodology has since been discredited, or at least come under creditable attack. In essence, there were not enough data points to draw a reliable conclusion, IIRC.

Hydra-shock bullets have since been superseded by the next generations of bullet designs. I wouldn't hesitate to carry them in my pistol though if that's all I had.

 

[Martin Hruz]

Yeah, I know there is a new generation...having never been an early adopter, I enjoy the advantages of R&D already being paid for... Though, in Reno, I am suffering from working long hours and getting to the stores AFTER any selection is removed before me anyway Truly been a ***** lately. Never been an internet shopper, but thinking I will have to give in here and start buying ammo online like the rest of the civilized world.