Is this going to far???


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Just read this article and thought I'd see what you guys think of this.

FBI wants palm prints, eye scans, tattoo mapping

CLARKSBURG, West Virginia (CNN) -- The FBI is gearing up to create a massive computer database of people's physical characteristics, all part of an effort the bureau says to better identify criminals and terrorists.

The FBI wants to use eye scans, combined with other data, to help identify suspects.

The bureau is expected to announce in coming days the awarding of a $1 billion, 10-year contract to help create the database that will compile an array of biometric information -- from palm prints to eye scans.

Kimberly Del Greco, the FBI's Biometric Services section chief, said adding to the database is "important to protect the borders to keep the terrorists out, protect our citizens, our neighbors, our children so they can have good jobs, and have a safe country to live in."

But it's unnerving to privacy experts.

"It's the beginning of the surveillance society where you can be tracked anywhere, any time and all your movements, and eventually all your activities will be tracked and noted and correlated," said Barry Steinhardt, director of the American Civil Liberties Union's Technology and Liberty Project.

The FBI already has 55 million sets of fingerprints on file. In coming years, the bureau wants to compare palm prints, scars and tattoos, iris eye patterns, and facial shapes. The idea is to combine various pieces of biometric information to positively identify a potential suspect.

A lot will depend on how quickly technology is perfected, according to Thomas Bush, the FBI official in charge of the Clarksburg, West Virginia, facility where the FBI houses its current fingerprint database. Watch what the FBI hopes to gain »

"Fingerprints will still be the big player," Bush, assistant director of the FBI's Criminal Justice Information Services Division, told CNN.

But he added, "Whatever the biometric that comes down the road, we need to be able to plug that in and play."

First up, he said, are palm prints. The FBI has already begun collecting images and hopes to soon use these as an additional means of making identifications. Countries that are already using such images find 20 percent of their positive matches come from latent palm prints left at crime scenes, the FBI's Bush said.

The FBI has also started collecting mug shots and pictures of scars and tattoos. These images are being stored for now as the technology is fine-tuned. All of the FBI's biometric data is stored on computers 30-feet underground in the Clarksburg facility.

In addition, the FBI could soon start comparing people's eyes -- specifically the iris, or the colored part of an eye -- as part of its new biometrics program called Next Generation Identification.

Nearby, at West Virginia University's Center for Identification Technology Research, researchers are already testing some of these technologies that will ultimately be used by the FBI.

"The best increase in accuracy will come from fusing different biometrics together," said Bojan Cukic, the co-director of the center.

But while law enforcement officials are excited about the possibilities of these new technologies, privacy advocates are upset the FBI will be collecting so much personal information.

"People who don't think mistakes are going to be made I don't think fly enough," said Steinhardt.

He said thousands of mistakes have been made with the use of the so-called no-fly lists at airports -- and that giving law enforcement widespread data collection techniques should cause major privacy alarms.

"There are real consequences to people," Steinhardt said.

You don't have to be a criminal or a terrorist to be checked against the database. More than 55 percent of the checks the FBI runs involve criminal background checks for people applying for sensitive jobs in government or jobs working with vulnerable people such as children and the elderly, according to the FBI.

The FBI says it hasn't been saving the fingerprints for those checks, but that may change. The FBI plans a so-called "rap-back" service in which an employer could ask the FBI to keep the prints for an employee on file and let the employer know if the person ever has a brush with the law. The FBI says it will first have to clear hurdles with state privacy laws, and people would have to sign waivers allowing their information to be kept.

Critics say people are being forced to give up too much personal information. But Lawrence Hornak, the co-director of the research center at West Virginia University, said it could actually enhance people's privacy.

"It allows you to project your identity as being you," said Hornak. "And it allows people to avoid identity theft, things of that nature." Watch Hornak describe why he thinks it's a "privacy enhancer" »

There remains the question of how reliable these new biometric technologies will be. A 2006 German study looking at facial recognition in a crowded train station found successful matches could be made 60 percent of the time during the day. But when lighting conditions worsened at night, the results shrank to a success rate of 10 to 20 percent.

As work on these technologies continues, researchers are quick to admit what's proven to be the most accurate so far. "Iris technology is perceived today, together with fingerprints, to be the most accurate," said Cukic.

But in the future all kinds of methods may be employed. Some researchers are looking at the way people walk as a possible additional means of identification.

The FBI says it will protect all this personal data and only collect information on criminals and those seeking sensitive jobs.

The ACLU's Steinhardt doesn't believe it will stop there.

"This had started out being a program to track or identify criminals," he said. "Now we're talking about large swaths of the population -- workers, volunteers in youth programs. Eventually, it's going to be everybody." E-mail to a friend

How long will it be before they require us to have 666 on our hand or forehead?
I have to agree.This seems very dangerous.Not only to our personal liberties,but,where will ALL of this information be kept?I think we all already know that there is no lock that can not be picked or broken,and no database that can not be hacked by someone.
Anyone remember the "Predator" scam the F.B.I. had? I'm sure they have/use it anyways. They only release info like this to gauge if we're ready to give up our privacy.

I am easily identified by my 40+ hours of tattooes I have and I'm not really worried about it exept that it's just friggin wrong on every concievable plain of thought.

I'm with brainchild on the grounds of securing our info once the obtain it. Sounds like a good hacking project for another Harvard educated terrorist.

Am I paranoid? Holy crap!
already there

like it or not, there are already 'lists', 'databases' , and 'collections' of personal data on file with multiple government agencies. One thing I can share with you is facial-recognition software. This is capable programming and is already employed in various places in the U.S.A. The software scans, analizes and compares the distance between facial features ( eye width, mouth corners...) These features cannot be altered through plastic surgery! In my previous career as a casino security representative, I witnessed a computer analyze thousands of faces per minute of unaware casino patrons, looking for casino cheats who were catalogued in various databases. We picked off repeat offenders in disguise that would have normally made it onto the gaming floor. As an aside, we also 'made' casino patrons who had active warrants for arrest for misdemeanor infractions that were never bothered. I'm happy to report that unless someone was wanted on a felony offense, the house didn't forward the info. as it was privileged information.
Already There

I'm happy to report that unless someone was wanted on a felony offense, the house didn't forward the info. as it was privileged information.

I never realized "privileged information" only applies to misdemeanors and doesn't apply to felonies.
As I said in a previous thread, the government would like for us to file a daily log of what we plan to do. If then, something varied from the correct path, they could "help" us get back on track.
Is this really that much worse than what is going on right now? I think this report is just more general media bs, designed to scare people. In the article they say that the FBI wants to collect pictures of scars and tattoos and collect palmprints. How is this different from now? When a suspect is arrested they are routinely fingerprinted, photographed and significant scars and tattoos are noted and recorded. All the FBI wants to do is combine all this information into a database much like they did with fingerprints long ago. The article also said that it was the employers who asked to be notified when an employee commited a crime but that they would need signed release waivers from the individual. In other words, if you don't want your employer to know then don't sign the waiver. I really don't see how this is any worse than keeping fingerprints and DNA. As a student of criminal justice, if a database exists that would help me find a murderer faster and prevent more death, then I welcome it. They never said anything about implanting us all with GPS and tracking our every move (that would be going too far), but the media makes it seem like that is the next step. They are just trying to scare people.
They never said anything about implanting us all with GPS and tracking our every move (that would be going too far), but the media makes it seem like that is the next step. They are just trying to scare people.

Perhaps . . .

On the other hand, a guy named John wrote once, long ago:

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Never doubt what's possible. It's part of your Situational Awarness training.
Is it going to far yes definatly. But it is already happening right now. I do not have a problem with convicted felons having to go through this but I am against putting more personel info out there than needed.

We are already living in a society where pretty much your every move can be watched. We have inclredible survielence technology out there now and it is going to get worse. You are being monitored wether you believe it or not, it is very selective but not as selective as I would like. It is just that the size of the database needed to store all the info is restricting things for right now. They continue to look at England as a model and how the survielence systems there are used to counter crime. This will be the argument they use when they decide to implement it. Once the technology is there they will use it.

When they start to require it in order to get your drivers license you will know it has been perfected.
hey, gunny...

the drivers licese thing is becoming a reality here in texas. i am a very private person, always have been . my face and prints are probably on file with everybody by now given the jobs i have had..... but this REALLY stinks. i am with HK on this one.:mad::mad::mad:
Many of you are old enough to remember that at one time the Social Security cards had written on them, "Not for identifacation purposes". Now you can't do anything without using the Social Security number. Each day we draw a little closer to total control.
this crap is all just a game for these pricks. and as technology gets better they are finding new ways to play. they've already got all the money they could ever want, next comes the power. and the more people they can control, the more power they have.
BIOMETRICS is more than a picture or finger prints. It is basically a digitized map of your facial features and a lot of other physical traits fed into a database that can be accessed and used to single you out even wearing a disguise or having had plastic surgery. There are certain characteristics of your face that can not be altered the distance between you eyes for example. Trouble is it take up a huge amount of space on a computer. Once they have the ability to scan everyone into a database that is capable of being accessed by the, "Good Guys," Then the fun will really begin. Anyone here remember how they said computers were going to make our lives so much easier? Yeah, right.
Just another reason to distrust the government. But I'm sure they're only doing it for our own good yuk yuk--and the best part is we get to pay for the SOBs to do it to us!

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