Is personal protection ammo worth the money


Rocketgeezer

New member
this was just sort of a spur of the moment test but las night I fired a FMJ into a block wall at about 6-7 yds, and then fired a a PDX-1, and a speer gold dot, what I found strange was the hot stuff basicly poked a hole in the block with very little deformation, but thr PMC fmj mashed out to about the size of a nickle, now these were 45 acp rds, I do not know if the other calibers would react the same, now like most of you guys and ladies, i have read all the testing with shooting gelatin, dead pigs wet paper, gallon jugs of water and whatever else, and I do say this test was far from being sientific, but thats what I did, and as far as the 45 ACP rd I think that high dollar stuff may be a wast of money, .....now please i did not post this to get a big giant wizzing contest started, i just thought some of you would like to know, when company advertises what a perticular rd may or may not do, dont always believe what you read
 

Geez,

Since a (cinder?) block wall is not a human body, it is hard to accept those results as being definitive as to how those rounds would've performed against soft tissue. I suspect (actually, I am pretty sure :biggrin: ) that they would've behaved much differently in soft-tissue, but "how much so" is something that only testing in a valid tissue simulant (water, ordnance gelatin) can tell us for sure.
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If your main intent is to determine which round will punch through that sort of barrier you may have something, but I truly doubt that your test can tell us much more than that. :no:
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Out of curiosity- Did the manufacturer of the ammo you tested against the block wall claim that it would perform in a particular manner against such barriers? :confused:
 
The danger of using full metal jacks is the bullet passing through your intended target and seeking another. I will continue to carry hollow points. They are more likely to stay within your intended target and do much more internal damage.
 
The question is whether special ammo is worth the money. I don't know much about pistols but I have been hunting deer and elk for a whole bunch of years. Many many years ago, I decided which brand of bullet I preferred for my .308. I can still buy that brand and bullet and it is the bottom of that companies line at about $20 a box. In 50 plus years of hunting, only twice have I had to track a wounded animal more than 20 yards. So why pay $40 a box for the "good" stuff? Because shooting a deer or elk is less of a risk to my family than shooting mister invader to my families home. For my edc and home defense, I'll spend the extra bucks just in case it does give me a slight edge.
 
.45 jhp's, under 1000 fps, can't be trusted to expand in flesh,after the nose cavity gets "plugged" by clothing debris. Same is true of .36 bore jhp's, under 1200 fps. I test on animals, and so should anyone who is serious about knowing where their carry ammo will do. I'm telling you, the gun rags and manufacturers LIE to you, and what happens in Jello, water, etc, has very little to do with what happens in air sack lungs, or fragile organs like the liver or spleen, or tough muscle like the heart. IF you have a load that does increase ability, like the CorBon PowRball loads, yes, it's worth it for carry, but I wouldn't practice with anything but cast lead swc reloads, myself. that is, after firing a magful thru each mag, and haveing another 50 rds or so of the ammo for 'duty" use. Nobody does much better than get about 1/2 their shots on the chest, beyond about 10 yds, when they are being shot at. So a 2-3" difference in point of impact, at 10 yds, between practice ammo and duty ammo is meaningless. I just zero the guns with the practice ammo, in case I shoot a match, hunt, or want to demo or show off with the gun. I don't care that the duty ammo is a bit off the mark, since the "pucker factor" of being attacked, the bad light, the enemy movement, the blast without ear protection, and ducking of incoming bullets will nearly destroy any such precise accuracy, anyway.
 
I have done something similar with something softer like 5" pine tree the fmj goes thru it like I drilled a hole clear thru, the hollow point and soft point stops inside and cause more damage.
 
I don't know if my defense ammo will perform exactly asall the tests show however hopefully it will and all the ammo i keep in my guns are of the self defense" type 12 ga shotgun sgemented slugs .40 handgun and .223 the winchester pdx 1... atleast it shows an effort to use the right ammo, because if you ever end up in a defensive shooting situation and everything goes well except your fmj round goes through the bad guy and into someone behind em that will be a huge homer simpson forehead smacking doh moment so isn't better to atleast do everything you can to prevent over penetration ?

stock up on your fmj stuff but keep a couple mags of the defense rounds first in line
 
FMJ's generally punch holes straight through things...not optimal performance if you have to shoot where your backstop consists of other people, or bedroom walls with your kids in those rooms. (Not that having a hole punched clear through won't take the wind outta most peoples' sails, but, it won't necessarily 'stop' everyone.)

Self defense rounds, especially 'home defense' rounds are made to do maximum damage/expansion to bodies, so as NOT to go clear through your target, thereby imparting maximum energy to the intended target, with far less chance of injury to potential unintentional backstops/down-range.

GoldenLoki.com There's a bunch of ballistic gel tests at this link.... judge for yourself what the different calibers vs bullet types do

...more here (maybe the best selection of gel tests) Brass Fetcher Ballistic Testing

...and, Personal Defense Ammunition | Ballistics 101 ... this link also has decent info/write-ups

enjoy, and I hope you find what you need to decide.
 
It is interesting that you continue to make this claim (as you have here and in another thread)...
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.45 jhp's, under 1000 fps, can't be trusted to expand in flesh,after the nose cavity gets "plugged" by clothing debris. Same is true of .36 bore jhp's, under 1200 fps. I test on animals, and so should anyone who is serious about knowing where their carry ammo will do. I'm telling you, the gun rags and manufacturers LIE to you, and what happens in Jello, water, etc, has very little to do with what happens in air sack lungs, or fragile organs like the liver or spleen, or tough muscle like the heart.

...regarding the validity of these tissue simulants (water and calibrated ordnance gelatin) as valid test mediums given the tremendous amount of technical research conducted by numerous professionals within the field (ballisticians, physicians, munitions engineers) that suggests otherwise.
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Premium JHP designs (like the Federal HST, Winchester PDX1 and Ranger "Talon" and "Bonded", Speer Gold Dot, etc.) recovered from tissue simulants look nearly identical as those recovered from human bodies at autopsy so it is hard to believe that the industry (LE and ammo manufacturers) is intentionally lying to their customers given the serious nature and utilty of their product.
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Other than an unfounded opinion, do you have the professional credentials and suitably documented scientific research that would support your ability to make an authoritative statement such as the one you have made above?
 
I've never had to defend myself against a block wall before, but ammo acts differently in the human body. I am od the school that believes round nose FMJ's are merely used for target shooting or plinking. A round nose, when used on a human body, has a tendency to go through the body and come out the other side, and may not stop the person that is attacking you. Where as, and hollow point, 9mm, .40, .45 cal., when fired into a body, will fragment and destroy organs and bones and usually bring the attacker down. And, isn't that the effect you want? Where I live you can by FMJ's for $15-$17 a box, and hollow points for $18-$22 a box. So as you can see a few dollars a box is not worth the gambel.
 
Like I SAID, anyone can go shoot some animals, just like I did,and SEE that what I have said is demonstrable fact. the ammo makers cant be BOTHERED with aniimal testing, and it would just show that most jhp's are going too slow to expand in flesh. so they have LOTS of incentive to sucker you into believing that jello and water arre realistic mediums for testing, but they aint. they know that almost all shooters are hidebound ignramuses, so they won't buy light enough bullets to get the velocties, especially at the wussy pressure levels that they want to load at. Especially in 380 and .38 special and .45 ACP
 
If you can hit what you aim at, the difference between JHP and FMJ isn't very important.

2 shots to the heart with cheap FMJ is better than 5 rounds of expensive JHP that miss.
 
.45 jhp's, under 1000 fps, can't be trusted to expand in flesh,after the nose cavity gets "plugged" by clothing debris. Same is true of .36 bore jhp's, under 1200 fps. I test on animals, and so should anyone who is serious about knowing where their carry ammo will do. I'm telling you, the gun rags and manufacturers LIE to you, and what happens in Jello, water, etc, has very little to do with what happens in air sack lungs, or fragile organs like the liver or spleen, or tough muscle like the heart. IF you have a load that does increase ability, like the CorBon PowRball loads, yes, it's worth it for carry, but I wouldn't practice with anything but cast lead swc reloads, myself. that is, after firing a magful thru each mag, and haveing another 50 rds or so of the ammo for 'duty" use. Nobody does much better than get about 1/2 their shots on the chest, beyond about 10 yds, when they are being shot at. So a 2-3" difference in point of impact, at 10 yds, between practice ammo and duty ammo is meaningless. I just zero the guns with the practice ammo, in case I shoot a match, hunt, or want to demo or show off with the gun. I don't care that the duty ammo is a bit off the mark, since the "pucker factor" of being attacked, the bad light, the enemy movement, the blast without ear protection, and ducking of incoming bullets will nearly destroy any such precise accuracy, anyway.

This is old school logic and does NOT apply to modern design projectiles!

Every premium HP on the market today expands very well at realistic velocities!

They also retain their mass well after penetrating various barriers.

-Doc
 
Like I SAID, anyone can go shoot some animals, just like I did,and SEE that what I have said is demonstrable fact. the ammo makers cant be BOTHERED with aniimal testing, and it would just show that most jhp's are going too slow to expand in flesh. so they have LOTS of incentive to sucker you into believing that jello and water arre realistic mediums for testing, but they aint. they know that almost all shooters are hidebound ignramuses, so they won't buy light enough bullets to get the velocties, especially at the wussy pressure levels that they want to load at. Especially in 380 and .38 special and .45 ACP

Reciting those ancient wives tales makes me wonder who is the "Hidebound Ignoramus" here.

Are you one of our old, banned, trolls using a new alias?

-Doc
 
Like I SAID, anyone can go shoot some animals, just like I did,and SEE that what I have said is demonstrable fact. the ammo makers cant be BOTHERED with aniimal testing, and it would just show that most jhp's are going too slow to expand in flesh. so they have LOTS of incentive to sucker you into believing that jello and water arre realistic mediums for testing, but they aint. they know that almost all shooters are hidebound ignramuses, so they won't buy light enough bullets to get the velocties, especially at the wussy pressure levels that they want to load at. Especially in 380 and .38 special and .45 ACP

So, you would have us believe that all of the munitions engineers, physicians, physicists and ammunition manufacturer's are "in cahoots" to mislead armed citizens and LE personnel about the performance of JHPs?
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Sounds like quite the "conspiracy theory".
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You've been asked here and in another thread to provide your qualification(s) that support your authority to speak on such matters and have yet to do so here (or there). When can we expect to see those?
 
Shoot what you think will work for you. There are a lot of ammunitions that are over-rated and over-marketed, with a price to compare. There is some thought that the more it costs, the better it must be, and there are always companies who will play that game. Some times their extra profits are just used for more marketing.

So... given all of that ... within the same "types" of ammos ..... HP vs HP, or FMJ vs FMJ, .... I think some times the difference is so miniscule and dependent upon so many variables, that in real life there probably won't really be any noticeable difference.
If you don't hit what you are aiming at well, it won't matter at all.

But, I do think there are different needs and different ammo to fit those needs, and you have to decide which "type" of ammo best fits yours and go from there.
 
Like I SAID, anyone can go shoot some animals, just like I did,and SEE that what I have said is demonstrable fact. the ammo makers cant be BOTHERED with aniimal testing, and it would just show that most jhp's are going too slow to expand in flesh. so they have LOTS of incentive to sucker you into believing that jello and water arre realistic mediums for testing, but they aint. they know that almost all shooters are hidebound ignramuses, so they won't buy light enough bullets to get the velocties, especially at the wussy pressure levels that they want to load at. Especially in 380 and .38 special and .45 ACP

Am I the only one who finds it incredibly amusing that titon spelled "ignoramus" wrong?

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk 2
 
I agree that other caliber would have differant results, I was just pointing out that the wall did not know if the bullit was FMJ or hollow point, and all else aside it would seem that even if the hollow point did not react exactly like is was supposed to it would have at least mashed out close to what the FMJ did ? and I also agree that a bullit will react differantly in a human body vs a block wall or about anythng else, my problem is I'm very pessimisstic by nature and dont tend to believe much unless I see or do it myself, so I could be told all day long that a bullit will do this or that when shot into this or that, there is no doubt that the 9mm, 40, 380, 44 mag, all react differantly, but given its size and weight I 'm not sure with a 45 ACP you would be any further ahead spending a $1.50 a shot for the latest and greatest, or 35 cents for Wally Worlds winchester or federal FMJ
 

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